Was the Catholic Church involved with the Nazis?

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rcwitness said:
Sorry for the sharp question. I was given this article by a Christian after encouraging him to the faith. I am so busy I have not been able to read it yet. Are any of you able to share any knowledge about its content. Please address the article, as I would like to do with my friend.

This is the link: jesuswouldbefurious.org/Catholic/MoralRelativismCroatianStyle.html
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The article comes from an anti-Catholic website called CatholicArrogance.org. Need I say more?

It contains several inaccuracies concerning the Catholic Church’s complex connection with the Nazis in Croatia and the Church’s attitude toward the Serbs and the Jews at the time. One major bias involves the role of Archbishop Stepinac, who, after a brief initial alliance with certain Nazi officials became a noted benefactor to both Serbs and Jews. Further, the Pope is made out to be a villain, which has been found to be quite the reverse. Last but certainly not least, the Israeli Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial has seen fit to enumerate 109 Righteous Among the Nations in Croatia who aided Jews during the Holocaust, several of whom include Catholic nuns and priests who risked and sacrificed their own lives.

In sum, the present article is ahistorical at best and Catholic-bashing trash at worst.
 
rcwitness said:
Sorry for the sharp question. I was given this article by a Christian after encouraging him to the faith. I am so busy I have not been able to read it yet. Are any of you able to share any knowledge about its content. Please address the article, as I would like to do with my friend.

This is the link: jesuswouldbefurious.org/Catholic/MoralRelativismCroatianStyle.html
Click to expand...
  1. the Jesus would be furious website (also known as catholic agrogancy.org) is one of the most anti-Catholic websites I’ve ever seen. The main (if not sole) author claims to be a former Catholic Priest who claims to have left the priesthood in the 1970s. He also claims to have taught at a Catholic Seminary.
However, when I read some of his articles, I find nothing that resembles an understanding of Catholic dogma, doctrine, discipline, etc. If he truly was a Catholic priest and taught at a Catholic seminary, then you would think he would use Catholic dogma, doctrine & discipline to undermine the Church. But he doesn’t. He takes sins committed by individual bishops, priests, Catholic lay people, etc. and claims it is the Church. He also spreads conspiracy stories as if they are true.

He doesn’t even explain whey he left the Church and priesthood (if he really was a priest). Personally, I find his creditability is very lacking.
  1. I recommend watching Pope Pius XII: Under the Roman Sky. This played on EWTN and you can buy it here on Amazon.com: amzn.to/1FkaOuV
God Bless
 
meltzerboy said:
In sum, the present article is ahistorical at best and Catholic-bashing trash at worst.
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The problem with a lot of this stuff is that it soon ends up in a misdirected mess where any real discussion drowns in people loudly defending the innocent/not entirely guilty.

At the very least, the Church’s stance against Communism led to “unforeseen consequences of one’s actions” situations. In some places, including Croatia and Slovakia, it led to regimes that became notorious and helped unleash forces that acted despicably - the Ustaša could disgust the SS.

Were some Catholic clergy involved in the Ustaše and its activities? Yes.
Were some Catholic clergy opposed to the Ustaše and its activities? Yes.

The existence of the latter does not excuse the former.
 
rcwitness said:
Sorry for the sharp question. I was given this article by a Christian after encouraging him to the faith. I am so busy I have not been able to read it yet. Are any of you able to share any knowledge about its content. Please address the article, as I would like to do with my friend.

This is the link: jesuswouldbefurious.org/Catholic/MoralRelativismCroatianStyle.html
Click to expand...
I think that there was a big problem with Croatia where several Catholic priests were supporting the Ustase.
 


Cesare Orsenigo, the Vatican’s representative to Nazi Germany, meets with Adolf Hitler and Joachim von Ribbentrop in early 1939. He is accused of advocating for ‘compromise and conciliation’ with the Nazis.


Bishops doing a Nazi salutes in honor of Hitler with Joseph Goebbels (far right) and Wilhelm Frick (second from right).

http://lukearredondo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Adolf_Hitler_Pope_Pius_XI.jpg
Archbishop Orsenigo wishing Hitler happy birthday, 1939.

http://media.irishcentral.com/images/MI+Hitler+and+Pope+Pius+Nazi+Wikipedia.jpg
Vatican Ambassador (Papal Nuncio) with Adolph Hitler.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Hitler signs autograph for a Catholic fan (a nun).
http://theholocaustandchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/priests-salute.jpg
Priests giving salute at a Catholic youth rally.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Hitler’s Brown Shirts attending church.

I still think “The Scarlet and the Black” is a good movie.
 
Kaninchen said:
The problem with a lot of this stuff is that it soon ends up in a misdirected mess where any real discussion drowns in people loudly defending the innocent/not entirely guilty.

At the very least, the Church’s stance against Communism led to “unforeseen consequences of one’s actions” situations. In some places, including Croatia and Slovakia, it led to regimes that became notorious and helped unleash forces that acted despicably - the Ustaša could disgust the SS.

Were some Catholic clergy involved in the Ustaše and its activities? Yes.
Were some Catholic clergy opposed to the Ustaše and its activities? Yes.

The existence of the latter does not excuse the former.
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I agree. However, the article, unlike your assessment of the situation, is far from balanced. It emphasizes the Catholic clergy involved in the Ustase, indeed gives the impression that all the clergy were Nazi allies or sympathizers, even those who clearly were not, while completely ignoring the clergy who opposed the Ustase. This lopsided approach is not, I believe, based on ignorance, but is intentionally done by this anti-Catholic website to defame the Church and its leaders.
 
meltzerboy said:
I agree. However, the article, unlike your assessment of the situation, is far from balanced. It emphasizes the Catholic clergy involved in the Ustase, indeed gives the impression that all the clergy were Nazi allies or sympathizers, even those who clearly were not, while completely ignoring the clergy who opposed the Ustase. This lopsided approach is not, I believe, based on ignorance, but is intentionally done by this anti-Catholic website to defame the Church and its leaders.
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Oh, I was taking an opportunity, before the avalanche of “wasn’t us, honest, guv” (English joke slang retort to being “nicked by the filth”, ie arrested) and “800,000 trees in Israel”.

I’d suggest that one of the reasons people can get away with these “Hitler’s Pope” allegations is that there’s been a lot of fancy footwork around a lot of the history - both centrally and on the part of the national Churches - partly because the very people involved - those who failed to escape - became future national martyrs once the Communists got their hands on them.
 
Here is an interesting article by the Israeli Newspaper Haraetz on how the efforts of Pope Pius XII helped thousands of Jews get exit visas from Germany after Kristillnacht.

haaretz.com/jewish-world/pope-pius-xii-saved-thousands-of-jews-1.300589

Should refute the tired old myth of the Church “collaborating” with Hitler.

Hitler hated the Church, and saw Pope Pius XII as one of the greatest enemies of his regime.
 
A quick thanks to you guys for helping!

I did get into it a little bit last night. I titled the thread a little extreme, not because I believe the article to be wholly true by any means. But I want to get specific insights and true historical analysis in order to refute some of this garbage!

Thanks Meltzerboy! I’ll be compiling information from all of you and researching myself in order to reply to my Christian friend soon, hopefully. But I want to be accurate! He is my cousin and is now a deacon at a church. I would like to offer a defense of this for the sake of avoiding him spreading this kind of biased haterd.

At the same time, I have to address and acknowledge the true ‘involvement’ of certain catholic men and clergy. Yet, lthat is a world of difference to attribute these men to the ‘whole of the Catholic Church’ and even the Pope. It definitely is a complex story in history, and a delicate one at that!
 
Kaninchen said:
The problem with a lot of this stuff is that it soon ends up in a misdirected mess where any real discussion drowns in people loudly defending the innocent/not entirely guilty.

At the very least, the Church’s stance against Communism led to “unforeseen consequences of one’s actions” situations. In some places, including Croatia and Slovakia, it led to regimes that became notorious and helped unleash forces that acted despicably - the Ustaša could disgust the SS.

Were some Catholic clergy involved in the Ustaše and its activities? Yes.
Were some Catholic clergy opposed to the Ustaše and its activities? Yes.

The existence of the latter does not excuse the former.
Click to expand...
A parallel could be drawn, for example, to the existence today of “some Catholic clergy” and some Catholic laity who support abortion or gay marriage. The existence of the “some” in the Church does not mean the Church as a whole sided with the position. Look, as another example, at the number of Catholics (even a number of clergy) who think contraception is permissible. It isn’t the Church’s position, and neither should the Church be lambasted or blamed for the existence of the “some” who take positions contrary to the Church.
 
Peter_Plato said:
A parallel could be drawn, for example, to the existence today of “some Catholic clergy” and some Catholic laity who support abortion or gay marriage. The existence of the “some” in the Church does not mean the Church as a whole sided with the position. Look, as another example, at the number of Catholics (even a number of clergy) who think contraception is permissible. It isn’t the Church’s position, and neither should the Church be lambasted or blamed for the existence of the “some” who take positions contrary to the Church.
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Well, one could draw that parallel, obviously and, might one say, conveniently. The “wasn’t us, guv, honest,” defence, in other words.

Or, on the other hand, one could draw a parallel to the way in which the Church authorities in various countries dealt, over the years, with clergy whose sexual interests and activities, particularly in respect to younger Church members, were, might one say (politely), potentially embarrassing.

With that parallel comes an aspect of “we really could and should have done better.”
 
I doubt the church itself collaborated with the nazis but did individual Catholics collaborate? Definitely because surprise surprise we are human. Some might have interpreted their faith wrongly, some might have been forced to fight (like Pope Benedict XVI who is no nazi and basically was a hitler youth member because it would have meant death), or they might have been “catholic” but their faith wasn’t of consequence and they were fascists first.

But no the church itself did not collaborate with the fascists
 
I don’t know that much about the situation in Croatia, but I do know that some priests and Church officials were initially taken in by the promises of Hitler and the Nazis, only to later regret and renounce their support. We have the luxury of hindsight now, but in the early days there was a strong sense of nationalism in Germany, even among clergy, and the propaganda of the Nazis sounded good to some after the defeat of the First World War and the ensuing economic and political aftermath.

One such example was Dom Ildephonse Herwegen, O.S.B., the abbot of Maria Laach Abbey in Germany. He initially supported the Nazis, long before the War and atrocities of the Holocaust, with their promise of a strong, united Germany. As he saw their plan and tactics actually unfold, he reversed his position, and was then targeted for death by the same regime he once supported. He had to leave his abbey and go into hiding in Switzerland, until the demands of the war made his persecutors turn their attention elsewhere. This is just one example of what I see as a sad and complicated issue.
 
christofirst said:
I don’t know that much about the situation in Croatia, but I do know that some priests and Church officials were initially taken in by the promises of Hitler and the Nazis, only to later regret and renounce their support. We have the luxury of hindsight now, but in the early days there was a strong sense of nationalism in Germany, even among clergy, and the propaganda of the Nazis sounded good to some after the defeat of the First World War and the ensuing economic and political aftermath.

One such example was Dom Ildephonse Herwegen, O.S.B., the abbot of Maria Laach Abbey in Germany. He initially supported the Nazis, long before the War and atrocities of the Holocaust, with their promise of a strong, united Germany. As he saw their plan and tactics actually unfold, he reversed his position, and was then targeted for death by the same regime he once supported. He had to leave his abbey and go into hiding in Switzerland, until the demands of the war made his persecutors turn their attention elsewhere. This is just one example of what I see as a sad and complicated issue.
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Its good you bring this up because i’m sure like a lot of movements, the nazi’s didn’t make their true intentions known until they got absolute power. And thinking about it, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to have a strong nation and a better economy. Plus people were blinded by the false ideology of nationalism which the nazi’s capitalized on.
 
Kaninchen said:
Well, one could draw that parallel, obviously and, might one say, conveniently. The “wasn’t us, guv, honest,” defence, in other words.

Or, on the other hand, one could draw a parallel to the way in which the Church authorities in various countries dealt, over the years, with clergy whose sexual interests and activities, particularly in respect to younger Church members, were, might one say (politely), potentially embarrassing.

With that parallel comes an aspect of “we really could and should have done better.”
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Well, that is just the problem. Who is the “we” you are referring to? There is no such entity, unless vicarious atonement is your schtick. Each will be held accountable for our own neglect, failures or sins. Fortunately, G-d does not paint with such a broad brush. Some could have done better, some worse and some likely did what they could or had to. It WILL all come out in the wash.

I submit there is no “we,” in the sense you think and there never was. There are only individuals who ought to act autonomously as far as taking full responsibility is concerned. It is when this mythical “we” is formed, and trusted to dictate what “ought” to be done, that things tend to turn sour and fingers of blame get pointed when all is said and done. Of course, identifying a “they” to which “we” don’t belong so as to feel superior to the “they” is the same phenomenon seen from the outside looking in.
 
BackHand said:
http://blog.world-mysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/HitlerwithBishops.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/29/article-0-18FE6746000005DC-502_634x431.jpg
Cesare Orsenigo, the Vatican’s representative to Nazi Germany, meets with Adolf Hitler and Joachim von Ribbentrop in early 1939. He is accused of advocating for ‘compromise and conciliation’ with the Nazis.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/30/article-2301297-18FE676C000005DC-411_634x427.jpg
Bishops doing a Nazi salutes in honor of Hitler with Joseph Goebbels (far right) and Wilhelm Frick (second from right).

http://lukearredondo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Adolf_Hitler_Pope_Pius_XI.jpg
Archbishop Orsenigo wishing Hitler happy birthday, 1939.

http://media.irishcentral.com/images/MI+Hitler+and+Pope+Pius+Nazi+Wikipedia.jpg
Vatican Ambassador (Papal Nuncio) with Adolph Hitler.
http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC/HitlerWithFan.jpg
Hitler signs autograph for a Catholic fan (a nun).
http://theholocaustandchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/priests-salute.jpg
Priests giving salute at a Catholic youth rally.
https://spiritualityisnoexcuse.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/brownarmychurch.jpg?w=450
Hitler’s Brown Shirts attending church.

I still think “The Scarlet and the Black” is a good movie.
Click to expand...
I cannot believe these images!!! It is truly disgusting! Was the CC ever held accountable for this?
 
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