was the Catholic womans veil adopted from Islamism?

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The Catholic Church didn’t get anything from Islam. Islam is a cult of Christianity + Judaism.
Here are two paintings of the Blessed Virgin.

The first is from the Catacombs of Priscilla and date to the year 200. You can see Mary holding Jesus on her lap, and she appears to have a veil over her head.

The second is an icon from St. Catherine’s Monastery in Sinai and it dates to the 6th century.
 
Apologies. I must have read about it too quick. Makes more sense really. Should have realised ,Why would a looter try and destroy it?

slaps head
 
Here’s something worth noting --“By the 13th century B.C in Mesopotamia, when a free woman married a non-slave husband, her husband placed a veil over her and declared that she was his wife. Only elite, free, married women were allowed to wear a veil; prostitutes, slaves, poor and single women were forbidden to cover their identities.”
suite.io/paula-i-nielson/2sxe2dq

…so the roots of the veil do in fact lie in eliteness and marriage in ancient Mesopotamian and Persian times. These traditions occured after the times when female goddesses and demi-gods were worshipped -when men’s authority became more dominant within society -these became the societies that survived.

So in a sense, the veiling of women defines the masculinity of a culture overall. It has little to do with modesty or God. It’s a cultural status ‘thing’… Which is interesting in regards to the Virgin mother, who would have certainly not worn a veil, since it wasn’t a Jewish tradition. Also, it was never a Zoroastrian tradition either.
 
Women covering their heads predates Christianity and Islam and was a part of the middle eastern culture. Islam just enshrined Arabic culture as part of it’s religion. In other words, the clothing style predated that religion. The habits and traditional viels at EF Masses do not come from Islam but the dress code from the 1st century.
 
TEPO said:
Here’s something worth noting --“By the 13th century B.C in Mesopotamia, when a free woman married a non-slave husband, her husband placed a veil over her and declared that she was his wife. Only elite, free, married women were allowed to wear a veil; prostitutes, slaves, poor and single women were forbidden to cover their identities.”
suite.io/paula-i-nielson/2sxe2dq

…so the roots of the veil do in fact lie in eliteness and marriage in ancient Mesopotamian and Persian times. These traditions occured after the times when female goddesses and demi-gods were worshipped -when men’s authority became more dominant within society -these became the societies that survived.

So in a sense, the veiling of women defines the masculinity of a culture overall. It has little to do with modesty or God. It’s a cultural status ‘thing’… Which is interesting in regards to the Virgin mother, who would have certainly not worn a veil, since it wasn’t a Jewish tradition. Also, it was never a Zoroastrian tradition either.
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The practice of Mesopotamians and Persians in the 13th century B.C. doesn’t really tell us anything about the practice of 1st century Jews. This also seems to refer to the practice of veiling a woman’s face, not just the wearing of a a veil over her hair.

This is interesting history on head coverings in Jewish tradition and includes references from both the Old Testament and the Talmud.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0008_0_08618.html
It was customary for most women in the ancient Near East, Mesopotamia, and the Greco-Roman world to cover their hair when they went outside the home. In biblical times, women covered their heads with veils or scarves. The unveiling of a woman’s hair was considered a humiliation and punishment (Isa. 3:17; cf. Num. 5:18 on the loosening of the hair of a woman suspected of adultery; III Macc. 4:6; and Sus. 32).
In talmudic times, too, married women were enjoined to cover their hair in communal spaces (e.g., Ned. 30b; Num. R. 9:16). In a society so highly conscious of sexuality and its dangers, veiling was considered an absolute necessity to maintain modesty and chastity. If a woman walked bareheaded in the street, her husband could divorce her without repaying her dowry (Ket. 7:6). Some rabbis compared the exposure of a married woman’s hair to the exposure of her private parts (Ber. 24a), and forbade the recitation of any blessing in the presence of a bareheaded woman (ibid.). The rabbis praised pious women such as Kimhit, the mother of several high priests, who took care not to uncover their hair even in the house (Yoma 47a; Lev. R. 20:11). Nevertheless, covering the head was a personal imposition and restriction from which men were glad to be exempt. According to Sotah 3:8, men differ from women in that they may appear in public “with hair unbound and in torn garments.” In Eruvin 100b, one of the disadvantages or “curses” that is cited as an inevitable part of being female includes being “wrapped up like a mourner.” Some aggadic sources interpret this custom as a sign of woman’s shame and feeling of guilt for Eve’s sin (Gen. R. 17:8; ARN2 9; Er. 100b and Rashi ad loc.; cf., also, the opinion of Paul in I Cor. 11:1–16). Girls did not have to cover their hair until the wedding ceremony (Ket. 2:1). It gradually became the accepted traditional custom for all Jewish women to cover their hair (see Sh. Ar., EH 21:2).
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Add to that the evidence from Early Christian art and iconography, as early as the 1st through 3rd centuries, and the New Testament instruction from St. Paul that women should cover their hair while praying, I’d say there is a much stronger case to be made that the Blessed Mother did cover her hair. Your statement that she certainly would not have worn a veil seems a significant stretch.
 
Rhubarb said:
If memory serves, women covering up and veiling was common in pretty much all of the West. It wouldn’t have been uncommon to see Europeans of the time veiling. And I think certainly it wouldn’t be uncommon to see Levantine women veiling.
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This was true in Southern Europe, but not so much the case in Northern countries.
 
TEPO said:
Ah hah…! So it is true then…🙂

From the link --“Other than the use by a bride (Genesis 24:65) and others (Genesis 38:14, Ruth 3:3), a woman did not go veiled (Genesis 12:14, Genesis 24:15). The present custom in the Middle East to veil the face originates with Islam.”
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Of course! If Wikipedia says so, it must be true…:rolleyes:
 
Greetings…
Not to be a prude, but my studies in Middle East/Islam and its culture, English grammar and the fact that i speak Arabic compel me to correct some obvious mistakes/misnomers here :D. First off, it is not called “Islamism” as many keep erroneously writing on this thread but is simply called Islam. So the question should actually read;“Was the Catholic chapel veil adopted from Islam/the Muslim faith?” second, the “woman’s veil” is properly called a Chapel veil.. Or so us latin mass goers call it lol … 😉 finally, to answer your question, no the Church did not adopt the chapel veil from Islam but vice versa. Muslims adopted the use of wearing the Hijab (veil) from early Christians. In fact, they claim that they wear the veil because the Blessed Virgin Mary wore a veil on her head and was covered (go figure). So Muhammad declared that Muslim women were to cover themselves in Mary’s example. Of course, veiling women was already a deeply rooted tradition in Semitic and Middle Eastern Culture, so the Christians AND the Muslims were not really doing anything new… it just seems that way to us contemporary folk because we generally lack modesty in our society.
 
padrepio_2012 said:
Greetings…
Not to be a prude, but my studies in Middle East/Islam and its culture, English grammar and the fact that i speak Arabic compel me to correct some obvious mistakes/misnomers here :D. First off, it is not called “Islamism” as many keep erroneously writing on this thread but is simply called Islam.
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Only the original poster called it Islamism, in the title of the thread. I don’t believe anybody else has repeated that.
So the question should actually read;“Was the Catholic chapel veil adopted from Islam/the Muslim faith?” second, the “woman’s veil” is properly called a Chapel veil.. Or so us latin mass goers call it lol … 😉
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I’m pretty sure that “Chapel veil” isn’t official Church terminology, therefore not properly called so. Besides, “chapel veil” refers specifically to a particular type of headcovering worn during Mass. I took the question to be much broader, referring to the veils worn by women in the early centuries of Christianity, such as those worn by almost all women in iconography.
Muslims adopted the use of wearing the Hijab (veil) from early Christians. In fact, they claim that they wear the veil because the Blessed Virgin Mary wore a veil on her head and was covered (go figure). So Muhammad declared that Muslim women were to cover themselves in Mary’s example. Of course, veiling women was already a deeply rooted tradition in Semitic and Middle Eastern Culture, so the Christians AND the Muslims were not really doing anything new… it just seems that way to us contemporary folk because we generally lack modesty in our society.
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This is a great point!
 
babochka said:
The practice of Mesopotamians and Persians in the 13th century B.C. doesn’t really tell us anything about the practice of 1st century Jews. This also seems to refer to the practice of veiling a woman’s face, not just the wearing of a a veil over her hair.

This is interesting history on head coverings in Jewish tradition and includes references from both the Old Testament and the Talmud.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0008_0_08618.html

Add to that the evidence from Early Christian art and iconography, as early as the 1st through 3rd centuries, and the New Testament instruction from St. Paul that women should cover their hair while praying, I’d say there is a much stronger case to be made that the Blessed Mother did cover her hair. Your statement that she certainly would not have worn a veil seems a significant stretch.
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You say that “the practice of Mesopotamians and Persians in the 13th century B.C. doesn’t really tell us anything about the practice of 1st century Jews”, but in the quote you linked, the last sentence says that girls did not have to cover their hair until their wedding ceremony… And just like the Mesopotamians and Persians, veiling was linked to marriage -telling society that they are unavailable.

…Interestingly enough, wedding rings weren’t accepted until 860 in Christianity, which could have become the replacement tradition of covering up parts of the head. Likewise, with the wedding ring, it was a sign that a woman was ‘taken’ and not available. Men didn’t wear wedding rings until WWII.

So it could be that the virgin mother wore a veil because she was married, and for a married woman to remove her veil would be similar to a modern woman going out in public after removing her wedding ring… Im just trying to make sense of the symbolic importance of the veil here. Likewise, a woman having removed her wedding ring before going to Church might seem equally out of place by todays standards.

Sources:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0008_0_08618.html
todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/09/the-origin-of-wedding-rings-and-why-theyre-worn-on-the-4th-finger-of-the-left-hand/
lifestyle.iloveindia.com/lounge/history-of-wedding-ring-3552.html
 
Instead of comparing Middle Eastern culture with Western Christianity, compare to Eastern Christianity, especially of the Syriac and Chaldean Churches that share the same space.

Islam came out of a deviation of Syriac Christian practice, everything from the headcoverings for both men and women, even the prostrations come out of Syriac Christian practice.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Instead of comparing Middle Eastern culture with Western Christianity, compare to Eastern Christianity, especially of the Syriac and Chaldean Churches that share the same space.

Islam came out of a deviation of Syriac Christian practice, everything from the headcoverings for both men and women, even the prostrations come out of Syriac Christian practice.
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Interesting points. 👍

*"Near the bottom of the pit of hell, Dante encounters a man walking with his torso split from chin to groin, his guts and other organs spilling out. “See how I tear myself!” the man shrieks. “See how Mahomet is deformed and torn!” For us, the scene is not only gruesome but surprising, for Dante is not in a circle of false religion but in a circle reserved for those who tear the body of Christ. Like many medieval Christians, Dante views Islam less as a rival religion than as a schismatic form of Christianity.

A handful of Western scholars now think there is considerable historical truth to Dantes view."*
firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2012/12/the-christian-origins-of-islam
 
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