Was the Protestant Reformation an act of God or an Act of men?

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He steps from the arena of academic gravity and verbal precision to the forum of the public in “an invective of dazzling rhetoric”. He addresses the masses; his language is that of the populace; his theological attitude is abandoned; his sweeping eloquence fairly carries the emotional nature of his hearers—while even calm, critical reason stands aghast, dumbfounded; he becomes the hieratic interpreter, the articulate voice of latent slumbering national aspirations. In one impassioned outburst, he cuts from all his Catholic moorings—the merest trace left seeming to intensify his fury. Church and State, religion and politics, ecclesiastical reform and social advancement, are handled with a flaming, peer-less oratory. **He speaks with reckless audacity; he acts with breathless daring. War and revolution do not make him quail—has he not the pledged support of Ulrich von Hutten, Franz von Sickingen, Sylvester von Schaumburg? Is not the first the revolutionary master spirit of his age—cannot the second make even an emperor bow to his terms? The “gospel”, he now sees “cannot be introduced without tumult, scandal, and rebellion”; “the word of God is a sword, a war, a destruction, a scandal, a ruin, a poison” (De Wette, op. cit., I, 417). As for pope, cardinals, bishops, “and the whole brood of Roman Sodom”, why not attack it “with every sort of weapon and wash our hands in its blood” (Walch, XVIII, 245). **

**Luther the reformer had become Luther the revolutionary; the religious agitation had become a political rebellion **(Maurenbrecher, op. cit., 155, 394; Treitschke, “Preussische Jahrbücher”, LII, 476; Paulsen, op. cit., 173; Weizsäcker, “Goöttingen Gelehrt. Anzeigen”, 1881, 846; Droysen, “Gesch. der preuss. Politik”, I, 145, 178; Barkhausen, “Gesch. der Philosophic”, III, 258; Hansen, “Sind wir nosh Lutheraner”, Copenhagen, 1885, 9, 10, 13, 86; “Athenaeum”, February 2, 1884, 146; “Academy”, January 26, 1884, 54; Creighton, “Hist. of the Papacy”, VI, 1891, 169; Bayne, op. cit., II, 165; “Cambridge Hist.”, II, 166).

Luthers theological attitude at this time, as far as a formulated cohesion can be deduced, was as follows: The Bible is the only source of faith; it contains the plenary inspiration of God; its reading is invested with a quasi-sacramental character. Human nature has been totally corrupted by original sin, and man, accordingly, is deprived of free will. Whatever he does, be it good or bad, is not his own work, but God’s. Faith alone can work justification, and man is saved by confidently believing that God will pardon him. This faith not only includes a full pardon of sin, but also an unconditional release from its penalties. The hierarchy and priesthood are not Divinely instituted or necessary, and ceremonial or exterior worship is not essential or useful. Ecclesiastical vestments, pilgrimages, mortifications, monastic vows, prayers for the dead, intercession of saints, avail the soul nothing. All sacraments, with the exception of baptism, Holy Eucharist, and penance, are rejected, but their absence may be supplied by faith. The priesthood is universal; every Christian may assume it. A body of specially trained and ordained men to dispense the mysteries of God is needless and a usurpation. There is no visible Church or one specifically established by God whereby men may work out their salvation. The emperor is appealed to in his three primary pamphlets, to destroy the power of the pope, to confiscate for his own use all ecclesiastical property, to abolish ecclesiastical feasts, fasts, and holidays, to do away with Masses for the dead, etc.** In his “Babylonian Captivity”, particularly, he tries to arouse national feeling against the papacy, and appeals to the lower appetite of the crowd by laying down a sensualized code of matrimonial ethics, little removed from paganism, which “again came to the front during the French Revolution” (Hagen, “Deutsche literar. u. religiöse Verhältnisse”, II, Erlangen, 1843, 235). His third manifesto, “On the Freedom of a Christian Man”, more moderate in tone, though uncompromisingly radical, he sent to the pope. **
 
Consubstantiation. — This heretical doctrine is an attempt to hold the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist without admitting Transubstantiation. According to it, the substance of Christ’s Body exists together with the substance of bread, and in like manner the substance of His Blood together with the substance of wine. Hence the word Consubstantiation. How the two substances can co-exist is variously explained. The most subtle theory is that., just as God the Son took to Himself a human body without in any way destroying its substance, so does He in the Blessed Sacrament assume the nature of bread’. Hence the theory is also called “Impanation”, a term founded on the analogy of Incarnation.

The subject cannot be treated adequately except in connection with the general doctrine of the Holy Eucharist (q.v.). Here it will be sufficient to trace briefly the history of the heresy. In the earliest ages of the Church Christ’s words, “This is my body”, were understood by the faithful in their simple, natural sense. In the course of time discussion arose as to whether they were to be taken literally or figuratively; and when it was settled that they were to be taken literally in the sense that Christ is really and truly present, the question of the manner of this presence began to be agitated. The controversy lasted from the ninth to the twelfth century, after which time the doctrine of Transubstantiation, which teaches that Christ is present in the Eucharist by the change of the entire substance of bread and wine into His Body and Blood, was fully indicated as Catholic dogma. In its first phase it turned on the question, whether the Body was the historical body of Christ, the very body which was born, crucified, and risen. This was maintained by Paschasius Radbert and denied by Ratramnus in the middle of the ninth century. What concerns us here more closely is the next stage of the controversy, when Berengarius (1000-1088) denied, if not the Real Presence, at least any change of the substance of the bread and wine into the substance of the Body and Blood. He maintained that “the consecrated Bread, retaining its substance, is the Body of Christ, that is, not losing anything which it was, but assuming something which it was not” (panis sacratus in altari, salves sues substantift, est corpus Christi, non amittens quod erat sed assumens quod non erat—Cf. Marten and Durand, “Thesaurus Novus Anecd.”, IV, col. 105). It is clear that he rejected Transubstantiation; but what sort of presence he admitted would seem to have varied at different periods of his long career. His opinions were condemned in various councils held at Rome (1050, 1059, 1078, 1079), Vercelli (1050), Poitiers (1074), though both Pope Alexander II and St. Gregory VII treated him with marked consideration. His principal opponents were Lanfranc, afterwards Archbishop of Canterbury (De Corpore et Sanguine Domini adversus Berengarium Turonensem), Durandus of Troarn (q.v.), Guitmundus of Aversa, and Hugh of Langres. **Although it cannot be said that Berengarius found many adherents during his lifetime, yet his heresy did not die with him. It was maintained by Wyclif (Trialog., IV, 6, 10) and Luther (Walch, XX, 1228), **and is the view of the High Church party among the Anglicans at the present time. Besides the councils above-mentioned, it was condemned by the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Council of Constance (1418.—“The substance of the material bread and in like manner the substance of the material wine remain in the Sacrament of the altar”, the first of the condemned propositions of Wyclif), and the Council of Trent (1551).

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Consubstantiation
Only one point. I know this, being from the older CE, dates from around 100 years ago, but not then, or now, was there a position with respect to the nature of the Real Presence, that it was possible to say was that of the “High Anglicans”. That can vary from something like what Berengarius was quoted as believing, over to the Council of Trent, Session XIII, canon 1. Mostly, it tends to be something like the Orthodox: we don’t know how the RP is made manifest.

GKC
 
=ufamtobie;5055571]Matt 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus Christ, never intended there to be a Protestant Reformation, period! The Protestant reformation is telling Jesus Christ, that he had lied and the Gates of hell did prevail over it! And therefore the church BUILT on ROCK needed to be Protested, and reformed by men.
The Protestant Reformation was indeed an Act of Men and NOT an Act of God for God can not lie.
Yes, an Act of Men. When man builds something it eventually falls apart, breaks away, into thousands of pieces such as the Protestant Churchessss, have, and history proves it! And each Protestant Church having a diferent approach with one another to who is right, but all, All in agreement to disagree with the Teachings of the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ! Why?
How can one prove the Protestant reformation was not an ACT of God. The Protestants prove it themselves… How so? Well, how many reformations have their been in the Protestant world, since, the first Reformation? The Answer is MANY! Too many to count. This proves the First Protestant Reformation WRONG! Let alone those that followed there after. Protestants unkowningly Protest against themselves that is why New protestant churchess are opening their Doors for the first time, it seems like a daily thing, and each believing that they hold the Keys to the Kingdom of heaven.
Jesus Christ only made one set of keys, did he not? And there is no room for spares keys floating around town 👍 For the Gates of hell can not prevail over it! Thus the reason for only one set of keys to the Kingdom, not thousands.
Ufamtobie
Well thought out post.

For the sake of debate and understanding, allow me to point out:

The motive behind the “Revolutation” was clearly, serious error in the practice of the RCC Faith. Would Christ have approved of selling indulgences for example.

Would Christ have approved of the initial responce to Luthers “demands.”

Would Christ, have refused to seriously dialog with Father Luther?

Were these issues (in theory on behalf of God) sufficient to force Father Luther into extreme actions? And if so, is not “the Church” God Himself?:hmmm:

Love and prayers,
 
Josie:

You’re quoting New Advent… from the turn of the 20th century. Both Catholic and Protestant historians have since realized some liberties were taken with Luther - on both sides. If you read the whole of Luther’s writings, of which I gave sources, it is clear that Luther did NOT embrace consubstantiation. If you will notice, back in the 60’s during the Lutheran-Catholic dialogue on the Eucharist, the word “consubstantiation” never occurs. Not once. (You can click here for the whole statement from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops).

Even my own Methodist/Anglican roots contain some inconsistencies about Catholicism which we now know are not true - and fall more under anti-Catholic propaganda than historical truth. Sometimes, what we were taught and what we learned was wrong.

You cannot find once where Luther ever mentioned consubstantiation, and he was well-versed with Thomistic metaphysics on the issue, and the Augsburg Confession clearly outlines the Lutheran TRUE believe on consubstantiation. It’s simply not true that Luther, or Lutherans, ever embraced what was assigned to them by Catholics (and others) as their belief on the Real Presence.

To quote scholar Salmasius (mid 1600’s): "Consubstantiation, or fusion of natures, is the commixtion of two substances as it were into one; but it is not this which the followers of Luther believe; for they maintain the co-existence of two substances distinct in two subjects. It is the co-existence, rather, of the two substances than their consubstantiation.”

Even Protestant scholars as late as the 19th century labeled the Lutheran understanding of the Real Presence incorrectly, since they (out of sacramental ignorance) thought that consubstantiation was the opposite of transubstantiation - which of course it is not. And, of course, you will still find it widespread today. But it’s simply not true.

I worked on the official statement on the Eucharist in the United Methodist Church, and one thing we learned when the first draft was constructed was that we were in error when we ascribed consubstantiation as a Lutheran belief. The official beliefs of various Lutheran synods as well as Lutheran scholars were quick to point this out.

The official statement from the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod:
Consubstantiation. View, falsely charged to Lutheranism, that bread and body form 1 substance (a “3d substance”) in Communion (similarly wine and blood) or that body and blood are present, like bread and wine, in a natural manner. - click here for official statement
The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) also rejects the belief of consubstantiation, for similar reasons: attempts to explain in terms of philosophical metaphysics how the Eucharist “works” ar disrespectful and blasphemous against the Sacrament’s miraculous and mysterious character.

This is probably one of the most misunderstood aspects of Luther. The guy had his problems, but ascribing consubstantiation to him is simply incorrect. Not only Lutheran churches, but Luther himself flatly denied consubstantiation.

Sorry. Your confirmation classes were wrong. So were a lot of Lutheran, Methodist, and Episcopalian confirmation classes too. And so are a lot of encyclopedias out there.

O+
 
You’re quoting New Advent… from the turn of the 20th century. Both Catholic and Protestant historians have since realized some liberties were taken with Luther - on both sides. If you read the whole of Luther’s writings, of which I gave sources, it is clear that Luther did NOT embrace consubstantiation. If you will notice, back in the 60’s during the Lutheran-Catholic dialogue on the Eucharist, the word “consubstantiation” never occurs. Not once. (You can click here for the whole statement from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops).

Even my own Methodist/Anglican roots contain some inconsistencies about Catholicism which we now know are not true - and fall more under anti-Catholic propaganda than historical truth. Sometimes, what we were taught and what we learned was wrong.

You cannot find once where Luther ever mentioned consubstantiation, and he was well-versed with Thomistic metaphysics on the issue, and the Augsburg Confession clearly outlines the Lutheran TRUE believe on consubstantiation. It’s simply not true that Luther, or Lutherans, ever embraced what was assigned to them by Catholics (and others) as their belief on the Real Presence.

To quote scholar Salmasius (mid 1600’s): "Consubstantiation, or fusion of natures, is the commixtion of two substances as it were into one; but it is not this which the followers of Luther believe; for they maintain the co-existence of two substances distinct in two subjects. It is the co-existence, rather, of the two substances than their consubstantiation.”

Even Protestant scholars as late as the 19th century labeled the Lutheran understanding of the Real Presence incorrectly, since they (out of sacramental ignorance) thought that consubstantiation was the opposite of transubstantiation - which of course it is not. And, of course, you will still find it widespread today. But it’s simply not true.

I worked on the official statement on the Eucharist in the United Methodist Church, and one thing we learned when the first draft was constructed was that we were in error when we ascribed consubstantiation as a Lutheran belief. The official beliefs of various Lutheran synods as well as Lutheran scholars were quick to point this out.

The official statement from the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod:

The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) also rejects the belief of consubstantiation, for similar reasons: attempts to explain in terms of philosophical metaphysics how the Eucharist “works” ar disrespectful and blasphemous against the Sacrament’s miraculous and mysterious character.

This is probably one of the most misunderstood aspects of Luther. The guy had his problems, but ascribing consubstantiation to him is simply incorrect. Not only Lutheran churches, but Luther himself flatly denied consubstantiation.

Sorry. Your confirmation classes were wrong. So were a lot of Lutheran, Methodist, and Episcopalian confirmation classes too. And so are a lot of encyclopedias out there.

O+
My friend, you are playing a game of semantics. Luther believed in consubstantiation, it does not matter whether he used the word to term it such.
 
My friend, you are playing a game of semantics. Luther believed in consubstantiation, it does not matter whether he used the word to term it such.
How many times, Josie, have you seen it here when a protestant continues to claim you worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, even when you prove over and over again that you don’t?
It gets frustrating, doesn’t it, when someone tells *you *what you believe?
Same here.
I promise I will never tell you what you believe, but will instead listen while you tell me. Please return the favor.
Jon
 
My friend, you are playing a game of semantics. Luther believed in consubstantiation, it does not matter whether he used the word to term it such.
My friend, I am giving you facts, not opinions or conjecture. And semantics DO matter - or should I believe that Catholics worship Mary and don’t let their laity read the Bible? And… did you actually READ what Luther said (I cited primary sources)? How could you say what you have said if you really did?!?

I truly don’t get dishonest apologetics. It’s amazes me how some Catholics will get frustrated with Protestants espousing untruths about Catholics, yet will come to their own conclusions about Protestants and claim that they are the truth - even when presented with hard, factual evidence to the contrary.

I truly don’t get it. Very sad.
 
Consub*stanti*a"tion\ (?; 106), n. 1. An identity or union of substance.
  1. (Theol.) The actual, substantial presence of the body of Christ with the bread and wine of the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper; impanation; – opposed to transubstantiation.
**Note: This view, held by Luther himself, was called consubstantiation by non Lutheran writers in contradistinction to transsubstantiation, the Catholic view. **

dictionary.reference.com/browse/consubstantiation
 
My friend, I am giving you facts, not opinions or conjecture. And semantics DO matter - or should I believe that Catholics worship Mary and don’t let their laity read the Bible? And… did you actually READ what Luther said (I cited primary sources)? How could you say what you have said if you really did?!?

I truly don’t get dishonest apologetics. It’s amazes me how some Catholics will get frustrated with Protestants espousing untruths about Catholics, yet will come to their own conclusions about Protestants and claim that they are the truth - even when presented with hard, factual evidence to the contrary.

I truly don’t get it. Very sad.
Do not call me dishonest, EVER.
 
I never called you dishonest. If I did, quote me and I’ll apologize.

Since you threw down the gauntlet, I might note that despite my posting PRIMARY sources you stilled denied them and then insulted me with the “my friend” sarcastic bit. Which I don’t understand but I am sure you feel justified by it.

Sorry you feel the need to win the argument with a threat, despite the evidence.

I know I have certainly found out over the years that I was mistaken about some things regarding Catholicism. Pity we can’t learn from either other, Josie.

Pax vobiscum.
 
I believe it was an act of Man, but some good did come out of it, and brought along the Council of Trent.
 
I never called you dishonest. If I did, quote me and I’ll apologize.

Since you threw down the gauntlet, I might note that despite my posting PRIMARY sources you stilled denied them and then insulted me with the “my friend” sarcastic bit. Which I don’t understand but I am sure you feel justified by it.

Sorry you feel the need to win the argument with a threat, despite the evidence.

I know I have certainly found out over the years that I was mistaken about some things regarding Catholicism. Pity we can’t learn from either other, Josie.

Pax vobiscum.
My friend, I am giving you facts, not opinions or conjecture. And semantics DO matter - or should I believe that Catholics worship Mary and don’t let their laity read the Bible? And… did you actually READ what Luther said (I cited primary sources)? How could you say what you have said if you really did?!?
I truly don’t get dishonest apologetics. It’s amazes me how some Catholics will get frustrated with Protestants espousing untruths about Catholics, yet will come to their own conclusions about Protestants and claim that they are the truth - even when presented with hard, factual evidence to the contrary.
I truly don’t get it. Very sad
The part emboldened implies that the person/s (that would be me and anyone else that you categorize as using dishonest apologetics) is being dishonest in their usage of apologetics, hence my statement to you. Now if you didn’t mean this please clarify your statement for me as to what you really meant. Because the context that it is presently in it doesn’t look like you are calling me honest either.

P.S. It seems like you were including me with those you accuse of dishonest apologetics.
 
Dishonest apologetics uses secondary sources as opposed to primary sources. It’s not personal.

Jeez. If it makes you feel, better, you win. You’re not interested in facts anyway. I just thought quoting Luther himself and the Catholic Bishops regarding the Real Presence might interest you on what Luther REALLY said and thought.

Despite what you said to me, I don’t “play games” with matters of the faith.
 
You know, I still believe Luther was guided by the Holy Spirit to try to fix some of the scandals of the Church at the time. Unfortunately, local politics and his own human nature got in the way and instead we had the “reformation” and Christianity in the west was divided.

The biggest problem came when decided that Church doctrine, instead of Church practice was wrong.
I agree. I think Luther really was trying to make it better. But he was only human after all.
 
Dishonest apologetics uses secondary sources as opposed to primary sources. It’s not personal.

Jeez. If it makes you feel, better, you win. You’re not interested in facts anyway. I just thought quoting Luther himself and the Catholic Bishops regarding the Real Presence might interest you on what Luther REALLY said and thought.

Despite what you said to me, I don’t “play games” with matters of the faith.
“If you are seeking to learn about the past, primary sources of information are those that provide first-hand accounts of the events, practices, or conditions you are researching. In general, these are documents that were created by the witnesses or first recorders of these events at about the time they occurred, and include diaries, letters, reports, photographs, creative works, financial records, memos, and newspaper articles (to name just a few types).”

The above definition states what primary sources are, none of the sources you posted (in your response to me) were primary sources.
 
I quoted Luther’s Works (LW), the Marberg Colloquy, and official statements from two Lutheran denominations. I don’t know how to get any closer to primary sources than that. 🤷

I’ll try to find out what beer Luther was drinking. If you can read German, I’ll send you everything you want offline.

Man, I already said you could win. You want a pound of flesh, too?

Reminders:

Luther’s OWN words, translated from German:
Why then should we not much more say in the Supper, “This is my body,” even though bread and body are two distinct substances, and the word “this” indicates the bread? Here, too, out of two kinds of objects a union has taken place, which I shall call a “sacramental union,” because Christ’s body and the bread are given to us as a sacrament. This is not a natural or personal union, as is the case with God and Christ. It is also perhaps a different union from that which the dove has with the Holy Spirit, and the flame with the angel, but it is also assuredly a sacramental union (as found in WA 26, p. 442 and LW 37, pp. 299-300).
Official Statement from Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod:
Consubstantiation. View, falsely charged to Lutheranism, that bread and body form 1 substance (a “3d substance”) in Communion (similarly wine and blood) or that body and blood are present, like bread and wine, in a natural manner. - click here for official statement
 
I quoted Luther’s Works (LW), the Marberg Colloquy, and official statements from two Lutheran denominations. I don’t know how to get any closer to primary sources than that. 🤷

I had forgotten your post directed to JacktheCatholic, as such I focused only on the post which was directed to me which did not contain the quote from Martin Luther. So mea culpa.
I’ll try to find out what beer Luther was drinking. If you can read German, I’ll send you everything you want offline.
 
There’s a lot to do today, but I didn’t want you to think I wasn’t paying attention to your response.

In short, consubstantiation and transubstantiation are concepts given to us from philosophy and metaphysics. Luther (as well as most of the Eastern Church) thought this was more explanation than description, and mysteries such as sacraments defied explanation. Luther did not embrace impanation - which is something that consubstantiation (as originally defined by Duns Scotus in the 1200’s) and transubstantiation DID embrace.

Luther said thus (parentheticals mine):
…[W]e do not make Christ’s body out of the bread … Nor do we say that his body comes into existence out of the bread (impanation, in other words). We say that his body, which long ago was made and came into existence, is present when we say, “This is my body.” For Christ commands us to say not, “Let this become my body,” or, “Make my body there,” but, “This is my body.” - LW 37, p. 187
I hope that helps. A happy Easter to you and yours.Christos Anesti! Alithos Anesti!

O+
 
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