Was the Protestant Reformation, in a sense, good?

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GKC said:
An historical personage is more instructive, to illustrate history.
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We’re not all the same and use different methods.

We can only do our best.

That doesn’t change anything.

GG
 
Luther should have been more patient. The catholic church is huge and big institutions take a long time to get things done. Anyone who has gone through the annulment process knows this all too well. Any veterans here know the hurry up and wait saying as they wait on snail moving government to approve their claims.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Luther should have been more patient. The catholic church is huge and big institutions take a long time to get things done. Anyone who has gone through the annulment process knows this all too well. Any veterans here know the hurry up and wait saying as they wait on snail moving government to approve their claims.
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Take note that Martin Luther’s original intention is to reform the Catholic Church, not to break away from it and to start a new church. It only serves to highlight how the Reformation could have been avoided and was started unnecessarily as it started with corrupt practices by church officials rather than for purely doctrinal and theological reasons.
 
The protestant revolution opened the way for godless secularism to be the predominant morality of Europe.

This is bad in the sense that it has brought a lot of suffering but it will teach subsequent populations the reality of a society without God.

Perhaps this is a lesson God believes we must see for ourselves.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Directly from Ut Unum Sint by Pope Saint John Paul II:

11. The Catholic Church thus affirms that during the two thousand years of her history she has been preserved in unity, with all the means with which God wishes to endow his Church, and this despite the often grave crises which have shaken her, the infidelity of some of her ministers, and the faults into which her members daily fall. The Catholic Church knows that, by virtue of the strength which comes to her from the Spirit, the weaknesses, mediocrity, sins and at times the betrayals of some of her children cannot destroy what God has bestowed on her as part of his plan of grace. Moreover, “the powers of death shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18). Even so, the Catholic Church does not forget that many among her members cause God’s plan to be discernible only with difficulty. Speaking of the lack of unity among Christians, the Decree on Ecumenism does not ignore the fact that “people of both sides were to blame” and acknowledges that responsibility cannot be attributed only to the “other side”. By God’s grace, however, neither what belongs to the structure of the Church of Christ nor that communion which still exists with the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities has been destroyed.

Indeed, the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities, in a degree which varies from one to the other, constitute the objective basis of the communion, albeit imperfect, which exists between them and the Catholic Church.

To the extent that these elements are found in other Christian Communities, the one Church of Christ is effectively present in them. For this reason the Second Vatican Council speaks of a certain, though imperfect communion. The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium stresses that the Catholic Church “recognizes that in many ways she is linked” with these Communities by a true union in the Holy Spirit.
  1. The same Dogmatic Constitution listed at length “the elements of sanctification and truth” which in various ways are present and operative beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: “For there are many who honour Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and of action, and who show a true religious zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by Baptism, through which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and receive other sacraments within their own Churches or Ecclesial Communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist, and cultivate devotion towards the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise, we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them also he gives his gifts and graces, and is thereby operative among them with his sanctifying power. Some indeed he has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd”.
The Council’s Decree on Ecumenism, referring to the Orthodox Churches, went so far as to declare that “through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”. Truth demands that all this be recognized.
  1. The same Document carefully draws out the doctrinal implications of this situation. Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: “All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church”.
With reference to the many positive elements present in the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities, the Decree adds: “All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to him, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The separated brethren also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in many ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation”.

These are extremely important texts for ecumenism. It is not that beyond the boundaries of the Catholic community there is an ecclesial vacuum. Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities.
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THANKS Don, I read this MANY years ago.

I had forgotten just how beautiful it was:blush:

Easter Blessings,

Patrick
 
R_H_Benson said:
No. The Protestant “Reformation” and the so called “Enlightenment” are perhaps the most spiritually catastrophic events ever to occur in the history of mankind. The fact that so many Catholics nowadays consider that anything good could come from the utter rending of the Mystical Body of Christ by a wave of unbridled and persistent heresy that has lead to the loss of countless souls, or regard the “Enlightenment” as a good thing is a disturbing reminder of how far away we have drifted from traditional thought.
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While I regret and disagree with the TONE of this post, it nevertheless, is factual. I Do which it reflected more Charity, BOTH because that is our CALL, our Command from God, and , the tenor applies to the Reformers FAR more than it does to the average Protestant of today.

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
Lenten_ashes said:
No, because breaking up the body of Christ is opposed to the Lord’s prayer for us in John 17

But that said, Protestants seem to be much better at evangelizing than Catholics are.

Many of us would not be Catholic today if it weren’t for a wonderful protestant ministering to us first.
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Interesting [but not a fully accurate position IMO].

I AM,a d I have known MANY Catholics is the past 3 years who are actively engaged i sharing our Catholic Faith. And then their is the Ministry of CAF it self:thumbsup:

God Bless you, and WELCOME HOME!

Patick [PJM] on CAF
 
GodsGrace154 said:
Who was doing the evil?

The church that was SELLING INDULGENCES or
the persons trying to stop it??

GG
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THAT DEAR FRIEND, IS AN EXCELLENT POINT; HOWEVER LOOK AT WHAT THE ATTEMPTED CORRECTION HAS LED TOO.🙂

MANY THOUSANDS OF DIFFERING [OFTEN CONTRADICTORY] SETS OF FAITH BELIEFS, EACH AND EVERYONE OF WHICH, KNOWINGLY OR NOT, IS COMPETING WITH THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, HISTORICALLY & BIONICALLY PROVABLE TO BE THE ONLY CHURCH AND FAITH DESIRED BY GOD HIMSELF; BOTH YAHWEH AND JESUS.

THE ABUSE [A PRACTICE; NOT A DOCTRINE] YOU ALLUDED TOO WAS QUICKLY ENDED, WHILE THE PLENITUDE OF SOUL-ENDANGERING REVOLUTION /REFORMED FAITHS, IS ONGOING AND GROWING.

NOT WHAT GOD ORDAINED [EXO 6:7 & MT 16:18-19], NOT WHAT GOD DESIRED.

GOD BLESS YOU, YOU MADE A VERY GOOD POINT:thumbsup:

AS TO IDENTIFYING THE SINNER; HMMMM…:confused:

THERE’S THEN AND THEN THEIR IS TODAY’S REALITY

PATRICK
 
Tommy999 said:
I have mixed feelings on this. In one respect, I think the Reformation inadvertently led to all the countless Christians denominations that sprung from it (and some quasi-Christian ones from them), so in that respect I think it is responsible to a large degree for the divisions within Christianity that exist to this very day.

On the positive side, I think the Reformation played a prominent role in prompting the Catholic Church to clean up abuses and forced the Catholic Church out of the political realm in which it was enmeshed at the time of the Reformation and focus instead on its primary spiritual mission of caring for souls and the poor.

For example, if I remember my history, the Pope was the arbiter who divided up the territory in South America between Catholic Portugal and Catholic Spain in the early 1500’s. That kind of world-wide political influence would be unheard of today in a world where most nations (with some exceptions in the Muslim world) have a separation between the state and religion.

However, Pope Francis recently helped the USA and Cuba establish diplomatic ties again after several decades of no diplomatic relations, so the Pope can still help mediate disputes in the political realm, just to a lesser degree than was the case 500 years ago.

In short, I think the results of the Reformation are a mixed bag whose effects are still being felt today.

The theoretical question for me is, *Would the Catholic Church have reformed itself and left the political realm on its own had it not been for the Reformation?, * In other words, would it still be too big for its britches had the Protestant Reformation not occurred? I truly don’t know the answer to that hypothetical question.
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THANKS

Very well ans fairly stated.

BUT, words alone cannot dismiss or neagte what our GOD with complete consistancy desired and accomplied by example for humanity ot follow.

Namely, always and every time and everywhere, just ONE

One True God [the 1st Commandment]

One True set of Faith beliefs [Eph.4: 1-7]

[1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4**] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in** one** hope of your calling. [5]** One Lord, one faith, one **baptism. [6] **One **God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. [7] But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ."

One [and only one] Chosen people {Exo 6:7], NOW termed “MY Church” by Jesus [Mt 16:18-19]. AMEN!👍

[Douay Catholic Bible] ACTS 20:
[27] For I have not spared to declare unto you all the counsel of God. [28] Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [29] I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30] And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them".

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
GodsGrace154 said:
I see. Okay.
I like to be free to read what I want to read.
But feel I have to be smart enough to know when I’m reading garbage.
The only way to do this is to be very familiar with the bible.

Since the bible is read now, here, bible study classes have been started. Maybe finally people will learn their faith (the Catholic faith).

Heresies are spread because people don’t know this “truth” we talk about much here on these threads. Last and not least - there are a lot of JW’s around here specifically because Catholics are easy game for them since it sounds like they know so much about the Word of God.

GG
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:tsktsk:

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
[Douay explanation]

[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church t[SINGULAR…MT 16;18-19 /20:19-20] To guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

**“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21[/COLOR]]

2nd. Peter 3: 14-18
“Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters**. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen”**

God Bless you,

Patrick**
 
susanlo said:
I am curious who was prohibiting the Bible. Was it the government? Or a church official? Or another person/group?
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The Catholic Church LIMITED public reading of the Bible for some VERY Good, and provable reasons, PRIOR to the reformation.

[1] The laity was NOT trained to be able to understand correctly the many mysteries the Bible proclaims

[2] in fact for a LONG time illiteracy was a prime factor in this PRACTICE [not a doctrine]

[3] the sacristy of bible [pre-printing press periods]

[4] The CC has a 3-year cycle wherein the entirely of the bible us shared AND rightly [usually] explained, negating an absolute need for self-reading

[5] as to the Prudence of this practice:

Luther’s idea to be DIFFERENT from the RCC he [a catholic-priest] abandoned** [Heb. 6:1-7 for the likely consequences] ** has led to today’s THOUSANDS of misunderstood, wrong comprehend, self- translated churches and faiths.

So just how prudent Luther’s generosity was OUGHT to be objectively questioned:

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
[Douay explanation]

[20**] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21]

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
“unbridled and persistent heresy that has lead to the loss of countless souls,”

it is comments like these that make it difficult to dialog at times -you have no clue as to whether souls are lost or not- persistent heresies -it depends on one’s viewpoint
 
GodsGrace154 said:
In Europe. The church. Not an official. Rome. I guess they thought the people here couldn’t handle it. In the 1960’s not everyone had finished high school yet. I could understand how the O.T. could be confusing - but what about the gospels?? Surely those are “safe” for everyone.

GG
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Rome has never banned the reading of the bible. She has banned the reading of bibles that were dubiously translated. I can post official papal documents, and bishop’s diocesan letters through the centuries exhorting Catholics to read Catholic bibles.

You, at best, can only post documents warning the Catholic faithful from reading unauthorized versions of the bible.

Holy Mother Church takes her duty seriously to guard Christ’s sheep from reading versions of the sacred scriptures mistranslated purposely to fit one’s novum theology.
 
CrucisLucia said:
Take note that Martin Luther’s original intention is to reform the Catholic Church, not to break away from it and to start a new church. It only serves to highlight how the Reformation could have been avoided and was started unnecessarily as it started with corrupt practices by church officials rather than for purely doctrinal and theological reasons.
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Amen.

I love the Catholic Church
but history is history.

GG
 
PJM said:
Interesting [but not a fully accurate position IMO].

I AM,a d I have known MANY Catholics is the past 3 years who are actively engaged i sharing our Catholic Faith. And then their is the Ministry of CAF it self:thumbsup:

God Bless you, and WELCOME HOME!

Patick [PJM] on CAF
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Some just cannot accept facts.
Protestant denominations make it a point to evangelize and have been doing so for hundreds of years.

Catholics do not evangelize and have just begun with the New Evangelization, which is evangelization to their own. WHY? Because they need it because they don’t know their own faith.

SO, how does one evangelize, in the past, if they didn’t even know their own faith??

GG
 
abucs said:
The protestant revolution opened the way for godless secularism to be the predominant morality of Europe.

This is bad in the sense that it has brought a lot of suffering but it will teach subsequent populations the reality of a society without God.

Perhaps this is a lesson God believes we must see for ourselves.
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I agree that there is secularism in Europe. In fact, I know for sure.

But, can you explain to me how there wasn’t secularism in the days of Martin Luther?

Do you believe the people of that era knew and loved God and served Him because they wanted to out of the love of their heart
OR
Because they were under the thumb of the church and were filled with fear?

GG
 
God tends to use bad things (like the reformation) to bring about good things in the process. So yes, good things did result. Namely Europe changed and relationships between Christians of different denominations had to be rethought. If Catholics and Orthodox did not have a common theological opponent in the reformation would the two be talking to each other? Likely not.
 
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