Was the reformation bound to happen ?

[rinnie]

No Rinnie, he was not. No one is “thrown out of the Church”. They embrace heresies which place themselves outside of the Church. Excommunication is a disciplinary measure intended to snap the person back into unity.

Anyone who has been validly baptized is a member of the Body of Christ. Only God can judge their soul.

But what I am saying is was he not out of communion with the CC? Gal: 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other then the one that we preached to you, let him be accursed!

 

[Bluegoat]

Yep…Martin Luther…33000 denoms and counting…each with a different flavor, disunity, fracturing…each a pope of their own.

On the CC…the council of trent…reforms, a stronger CC, more discernment in the selection of papal successors.

Yep…you do indeed know them by their fruits.

The whole “pope of their own” idea is silly. You can’t read how Lutherans understand the ecclesiastical community and say that - they clearly moved away from the whole idea of an individual leader, at least theoretically.

Frankly, I think the CC is the one that came up with the whole idea of an individual being able to make decisions for the Church as a whole, which the Reformers were ultimately not able to overcome.

 

[JonNC]

This is one of the concepts that departs from the Apostolic TEaching. The Apostles taught that we are not to walk according to the flesh, and to live with “dung” in us for this lifetime is not God’s intention for us. He wants us to be Holy, as He is Holy. He did not carry “dung” in Himself during this life. When he came to free us from sin, and the consequences of sin, it is not only for eternal life, but this life as well. I don’t think Luther believed that sanctity was really possible. Most of the children of the Reformation seem to think it is “necessary” for us to sin, but this is not true.

A more accurate statement would be that Luther didn’t think that **complete **sanctity was possible in this life. And one could base this understanding on scripture - “None is righteous, no not one.” “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

But that is not to say that we are not expected to endeavor in every way throughout our lives to conform ourselves to Him, to grow in grace (work out our salvation in fear and trembling), with the help of the Holy Spirit, and the means of grace He provides us. Sanctification is completed in the regenerate at the moment of death (a moment of purgation, if you will), at which time we join His saints in Heaven.

It might not be necessary to sin, but it is certainly a reality that we do.

Jon

 

[1voice]

Yep…Martin Luther…33000 denoms and counting…each with a different flavor, disunity, fracturing…each a pope of their own.

On the CC…the council of trent…reforms, a stronger CC, more discernment in the selection of papal successors.

Yep…you do indeed know them by their fruits.

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church cleaned up it’s act.

at the same time …
Pope Benedict’s high praise of Protestant contributions to Christ’s work on earth, quoted above, seems to run counter to your assessment of those who are not Catholic.

 

[elvisman]

Excuse me, what accusation did I make in particular? I have asked questions and cleared up misconceptions about Luther. I’ve said nothing against the Church that I recall. You are grouping me together accusation is preposterouiwith the other people you are arguing with. I have not identified with anyone else here. If anyone is not reading the posts, it is you, my friend.

Huh?? Who is aking accusations against you? What are you talking about?
Go back and read the posts. JohnNC came to my defense when you went after me with the following ad hominem:

Is this guy stable?

Then, you countered with the following:

Not talking about his beliefs, I’m talking about his constant disrespect and assumption that no one else could possibly know what they are talking about.

**That was when I made my last remark because your accusation is ludicrous. Who have I disrespected? Who have I told that they couldn’**t possibly know what they are talking about without warrant? These people are making ridiculous claims without any historical or documented evidence so either they are evil liars or they are simply ignorant. Based on their lack of debating skills and ad hominem attacks - I choose to believe the latter.

I have challenged EVERYBODY - repeatedly - who is making false claims about the Church to come forward with some historical documentation and so far all I have gotten are weak, unfounded opinions and immature attacks.

You should probably reconsider spending time on a debate site if you are squeamish about people demanding that their attackers provide evidence for their claims. This may not be the best place for you to spend time.

 

[elvisman]

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church cleaned up it’s act.

at the same time …
Pope Benedict’s high praise of Protestant contributions to Christ’s work on earth, quoted above, seems to run counter to your assessment of those who are not Catholic.

**And, once again - Benedict’s “high praise” for Protestants is about their faith and love for God. It’s about HOW devout Protestants practice their beliefs - not WHAT they believe in. He still has a problem with that. **

In every document he has written about Protestants, he ALWAYS calls for them to return to Christ’s ONLY Church. Read Dominus Iesus. He doesn’t even consider your “churches” real Churches. They are simply “ecclesial communities” who are i need of coming back to full communion with the True Church.

Your failure to understand what he has said comes as no surprise to me since you can’t even come up with one, single documented piece of evidence for your silly charges.

No, this isn’t the “high praise” you’re talking about but you can go on ignoring the true meaning behind his charitable words. Like I said - you’ve been exposed.**

 

[rinnie]

A more accurate statement would be that Luther didn’t think that **complete **sanctity was possible in this life. And one could base this understanding on scripture - “None is righteous, no not one.” “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

But that is not to say that we are not expected to endeavor in every way throughout our lives to conform ourselves to Him, to grow in grace (work out our salvation in fear and trembling), with the help of the Holy Spirit, and the means of grace He provides us. Sanctification is completed in the regenerate at the moment of death (a moment of purgation, if you will), at which time we join His saints in Heaven.

It might not be necessary to sin, but it is certainly a reality that we do.

Jon

Another teaching that was in direct conflict with the word of God. If it were not possible to be made Holy in this world God would not have called us all to be made holy.

That is where the importance of the Church come into play because of the Sacraments.

We are unholy when we are in a state of sin. But by the power of the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Confession we are made whole once again and made Holy once again through Christ by his Church.

As smart as he was a times, he seemed to lack commom semse.

Like none are righteous, of course not, but we are made righteous by the Grace of God. Look at Job he was righteous it was written in the bible that he was. The Blessed Mother, St John the Baptism, Many people in the bible it stated were very Holy. They were all made that way by the word of God.

 

[JonNC]

And, once again - Benedict’s “high praise” for Protestants is about their faith and love for God. It’s about HOW devout Protestants practice their beliefs - not WHAT they believe in. He still has a problem with that.

In every document he has written about Protestants, he ALWAYS calls for them to return to Christ’s ONLY Church. Read Dominus Iesus. He doesn’t even consider your “churches” real Churches. They are simply “ecclesial communities” who are i need of coming back to full communion with the True Church.

Your failure to understand what he has said comes as no surprise to me since you can’t even come up with one, single documented piece of evidence for your silly charges.

No, this isn’t the “high praise” you’re** talking about but you can go on ignoring the true meaning behind his charitable words. Like I said - you’ve been exposed.

Hi elvisman,
I think, by-in-large you reflect here what the CC teaches in terms of its committment to ecumenism. One area that appears to be less limited than what you said has to do with our “ecclesial communites”. I think the CC teaches more about them than simply that members are to recieve high praise for their faith and love of God.

From ut unum sint:

The Council states that the Church of Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”, and at the same time acknowledges that "many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity".11

"It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".12

So, on the one hand, the CC claims for that the Church of Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church”, and on the other, that our “communities” “have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation.” and that “Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation”
And the Catholic Catechism says:

many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church

There is a clear understanding that, while the CC and the Pope see “defects” in our churches, it also sees them as possessing many elements of sanctification and truth". And that seems to speak to the “communities” as entities, not just individual members.

Jon

 

[1voice]

---

“Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian”

…Cardinal Ratzinger

“It is not a unity of religion we seek but a union of religious people. We may not be able to meet in the same pew, but we can meet together on our knees (as Christians)”

… Archbishop Fulton J Sheen.

---

Hear oh Israel … The Lord our God is One.

 

[JonNC]

Another teaching that was in direct conflict with the word of God. If it were not possible to be made Holy in this world God would not have called us all to be made holy.

That is where the importance of the Church come into play because of the Sacraments.

We are unholy when we are in a state of sin. But by the power of the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Confession we are made whole once again and made Holy once again through Christ by his Church.

As smart as he was a times, he seemed to lack commom semse.

Like none are righteous, of course not, but we are made righteous by the Grace of God. Look at Job he was righteous it was written in the bible that he was. The Blessed Mother, St John the Baptism, Many people in the bible it stated were very Holy. They were all made that way by the word of God.

So, again, it comes down to how we view concupiscence, as a tendency to sin, or as actually sin itself. I will also say that when scripture says, “if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” I have no reason not to believe this.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

Hi elvisman,
I think, by-in-large you reflect here what the CC teaches in terms of its committment to ecumenism. One area that appears to be less limited than what you said has to do with our “ecclesial communites”. I think the CC teaches more about them than simply that members are to recieve high praise for their faith and love of God.

From ut unum sint:
So, on the one hand, the CC claims for that the Church of Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church”, and on the other, that our “communities” “have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation.” and that “have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation.”

And the Catholic Catechism says:
There is a clear understanding that, while the CC and the Pope see “defects” in our churches, it also sees them as possessing many elements of sanctification and truth". And that seems to speak to the “communities” as entities, not just individual members.

Jon

**Agreed, Jon. As usual - you are willing to look at the words and honestly assess them. You read and understand what the documents say. Bless you for that.

I would just ad one cavieat.
**While the quotes above do say that there is truth in Protestant ecclesial communities, they explain that the Church of Christ is found only in the Catholic Church and that all ecclesial communities are in need of complete unity with that one Church. **

I will post one of the sections you posted, placing the emphasis on different parts than you did:

The Council states that the Church of Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”, and at the same time acknowledges that “many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity”.11

*“It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.12 *

The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus). However, a**s Lumen Gentium states:
***847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: ***

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.-Catechism of the Catholic Church,N.847

---

This is how Benedict’s words should be digested and understood - not as a blanked approval of Protestantism as 1voice and others have falsley asserted.

 

[JonNC]

The whole “pope of their own” idea is silly. You can’t read how Lutherans understand the ecclesiastical community and say that - they clearly moved away from the whole idea of an individual leader, at least theoretically.

Frankly, I think the CC is the one that came up with the whole idea of an individual being able to make decisions for the Church as a whole, which the Reformers were ultimately not able to overcome.

Certainly when one reads the Formula of Concord’s rule and norm, one cannot come to the conclusion that each person, or even each communion, is their own pope.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

“It is not a unity of religion we seek but a union of religious people. We may not be able to meet in the same pew, but we can meet together on our knees (as Christians)”

… Archbishop Fulton J Sheen.

That’s great preachin’!
He was absolutely right. Unfortunately, you have once again failed to grasp the true meaning behind his words. It ALL goes back to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and it’s explanation in Lumen Gentium as I explained in my last post.

Hear oh Israel … The Lord our God is One.

**That’s about the only thing you’ve said on this thread that makes any sense at all. **Our God IS one so he cannot be divided - and neither can his Church be. **

**Too bad Luther didn’t see it that way . . .

 

[JonNC]

**Agreed, Jon. As usual - you are willing to look at the words and *honestly ***assess them. You read and understand what the documents say. Bless you for that.

I would just ad one cavieat.
While the quotes above do say that there is truth in Protestant ecclesial communities, they explain that the Church of Christ is found only in the Catholic Church and that all ecclesial communities are in need of complete unity with that one Church.

I will post one of the sections you posted, placing the emphasis on different parts than you did:

The Council states that the Church of Christ "subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him", and at the same time acknowledges that “many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity”.11

"It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".12

**The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus). However, as Lumen Gentium states:
***847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: ***

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.-Catechism of the Catholic Church,N.847

---

This is how Benedict’s words should be digested and understood - not as a blanked approval of Protestantism as 1voice and others have falsley asserted.

Well, surely, one shouldn’t expect a blanket approval. In fact, speaking in general terms, Christ does not give a blanket approval for the division of His should, and I believe we all - even today - share responsibility for our ongoing division.

I got a out of your line: I will post one of the sections you posted, placing the emphasis on different parts than you did Funny how we can read the same document and place the emphasis on different places.

continued

 

[JonNC]

But back to ut unum sint, this gem, which relates to what I posted earlier about my frustration with theards such as this:

Christ calls all his disciples to unity. My earnest desire is to renew this call today, to propose it once more with determination, repeating what I said at the Roman Colosseum on Good Friday 1994, at the end of the meditation on the Via Crucis prepared by my Venerable Brother Bartholomew, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. **There I stated that believers in Christ, united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs, cannot remain divided. If they wish truly and effectively to oppose the world’s tendency to reduce to powerlessness the Mystery of Redemption, **they must profess together the same truth about the Cross.****1 The Cross! An anti-Christian outlook seeks to minimize the Cross, to empty it of its meaning, and to deny that in it man has the source of his new life. It claims that the Cross is unable to provide either vision or hope. Man, it says, is nothing but an earthly being, who must live as if God did not exist.

1. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God’s help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?

I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.

**Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. **Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord’s disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people’s minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.

Emphais is mine! …they must profess together the same truth about the Cross. The cross!! When I read these words, and his restatement with emphasis, “The cross!” Chills run my spine.

Herein is the format for dialogue between those of us who share this call, the call of the cross, the call of Christ that we all be one.

Jon

 

[Cristiano]

But back to ut unum sint, this gem, which relates to what I posted earlier about my frustration with theards such as this:

Emphais is mine! …they must profess together the same truth about the Cross. The cross!! When I read these words, and his restatement with emphasis, “The cross!” Chills run my spine.

Herein is the format for dialogue between those of us who share this call, the call of the cross, the call of Christ that we all be one.

Jon

I think that in an apologetic forum like this a lot of Catholics tend to forget some critical points of the encyclical letter “Caritas in veritate” by Pope Benedict XVI. I think that pushing what we know to be the Truth through Bible quotes, philosophical discussion, formal logic etc. is not sufficient to help people to change their mind, their will , and their hearts. I make that mistake quite often and I need to start thinking “Am I posting for the love of me to prove that I know the Truth and that I am right, or am I posting for the love of God and I let myself being His instrument of conversion?”. Usually my honest answer is yes to the first part of the question, and not to the second.

 

[elvisman]

But back to ut unum sint, this gem, which relates to what I posted earlier about my frustration with theards such as this:

Emphais is mine! …they must profess together the same truth about the Cross. The cross!! When I read these words, and his restatement with emphasis, “The cross!” Chills run my spine.

Herein is the format for dialogue between those of us who share this call, the call of the cross, the call of Christ that we all be one.

Jon

Amen, brother.

 

[Rock_Happy]

Just wondering if Luther hadn’t presented his thesis that day, and kicked off the reformation, was the reformation bound to happen anyway?

Large organizations are prone to corruption and pursuing political, financial, and other power aggregating activities. The Church is a very large and wealthy, and very political and powerful, organization. As such, it is not immune to these tendencies.

Yes, I think that there is always the tendency for individuals to reject power and corruption when it is exercised over their lives. The critical technology which enabled the reformation was the invention and growing use of the printing press, which enabled the individual to read the Bible. The Church was no longer the only informational source on the topic, for many people.

I don’t need to elaborate on how this informational availability is many times greater today. This tends to undermine the legitimacy of all large organizations, whenever a scandal occurs, or whenever they are found to be teaching false doctrine, or for any other of a number of informational events which can occur. This is one of the reasons that I point out when I think the Church is in err. As people have access to more information, these things cannot be ignored, if it is to retain credibility. If it does not, then people will naturally turn elsewhere.

 

[JonNC]

I think that in an apologetic forum like this a lot of Catholics tend to forget some critical points of the encyclical letter “Caritas in veritate” by Pope Benedict XVI. I think that pushing what we know to be the Truth through Bible quotes, philosophical discussion, formal logic etc. is not sufficient to help people to change their mind, their will , and their hearts. I make that mistake quite often and I need to start thinking “Am I posting for the love of me to prove that I know the Truth and that I am right, or am I posting for the love of God and I let myself being His instrument of conversion?”. Usually my honest answer is yes to the first part of the question, and not to the second.

And I, too, am guilty. Sometimes, I think, we all forget that the question is not, is Christ on my side, but rather, am I on Christ’s side?

Jon

 

[rinnie]

:tanning:

So, again, it comes down to how we view concupiscence, as a tendency to sin, or as actually sin itself. I will also say that when scripture says, “if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” I have no reason not to believe this.

Jon

But remember we must pray for Grace everyday the same way the Jesus did when he was in the desert and taught us. To rid ourself of our self and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

It can be done, but it takes so much prayers and Grace from God.

Take care my friend and have a wonderful 4th. Catch you all next week. I am signing off have SOOOOOOOO much to do this week. My prayers are always with you and your family my friend. Have a great one.

Hey JON, Guess what? ITs not raining!!!:extrahappy::tanning: So heading to the pool for the next 2 hours and going to spend my time with the Father and the SUN!