Was the reformation bound to happen ?

[guanophore]

Amazing. I would not think you would come right out and say that God the Holy Spirit is insufficient, but there it is. The papacy is necessary to make up for God’s inadequate salvation and leadership? I don’t think you really meant to say that.

No, what is meant is that all those persons who beleive they are taught by God are really just subject to their own perceptions of what they believe the Holy Spirit is saying.

The trouble is, the HS does not say one thing to an individual that contradicts what he has previously revealed to His One Body, the Church.

The papacy is not “necessary”. This is how Jesus set things up. He could have done it any way He wanted. He wanted to give Peter the Keys, so He did. He made Peter responsible for the care and feeding of His flock. Interpreting the revelation of God apart from what He has already revealed is what is "insufficient’.

Yes. In one of the Timothy epistles Paul tells Timothy to pass it on to FAITHFUL men. Not to the faithless. The faithless are therefore disqualified from passing on the apostolic teaching, meaning that it is more important to be faithful to the teaching than to have one crook lay hands on another crook and proclaim himself the inheritor of the apostolic succession. That sounds severe, and it is, but it is the truth. It is what Scripture states.

But the faithlessness of men does not overpower the Word of God. He watches over His word to perform it.

Phil 1:12-18

12 I want you to know, brethren, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, …

15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel; 17 the former proclaim Christ out of partisanship, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.

God has preserved His Gospel in spite of all the avarice and ambitions of sinful men. He has not failed to watch over His Word to perform it.

Isa 55:10-11

10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and return not thither but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

We are to judge a tree by its fruits. When bishops do what bishops have done, our conclusion is that as a group they are untrustworthy and to be done away with.

This is not right. When we judge a tree, we are not judging a whole forest at one time. Granted, there have been corrupt bishops. But for your theory to be true, then all of them everywhere have been, and continue to be. This is simply not accurate.

There may well be faithful bishops, but the stress should be on the faithful part, not on whether someone is a bishop. In contrast the Catholic Church puts all the stress on the office per se, not as a reflection of faithfulness.

-Tina “Striving to Be Faithful to the Word” G

Both are important. The point is that the gift and the office of Bishop is from God, and therefore, is preseved by Him, even if the person in it falls into sin.

Rom 11:29
9 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

 

[guanophore]

I have observed little unity in the Catholic Church between the traditionalists, the radicals, the conservatives and the liberals.

You have “observed”? How is that?

The unity is not based upon the individuals, but upon the Truth to which they adhere. Those who depart from Truth, depart from unity.

John 17:16-22
. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

No matter how many individuals depart, the Truth remains inviolable because it is of God.

Each insists that it is the true representation of Catholicism and the others are wrong.

Which is exactly why an authorative source is needed. Otherwise, He has left us orphaned.

Protestants seem much more willing to accept theological diversity among others and walk under an umbrella of differing beliefs than Catholics are.

Yes. This is regrettable, and is responsible for the thousands of denomiations that exist today, some holding beliefs that are diametrically opposed to one another.

The Catholics I know are judgmental of Protestants, but bitter towards ‘fellow believers’ with whom they disagree, and unforgiving towards those who have offended them.

It is regrettable that those who claim to follow Christ sometimes give such a poor example of His teachings. However, their personal failings also do not invalidate the Truth.

How many threads on CAF, for example, deal with an angry Catholic walking out of Mass in protest, or “some group” taking over the parish, or a fight between a courageous conservative priest and his rebellious, liberal congregation? Or broken relationships between Catholics for reasons that I wonder about that a little forgiveness would go a long way towards healing?

So, should we abandon the Apostolic faith,and all the TEachings of Jesus because Judas was such a poor role model?

Isolation? I stayed to the end of Mass when I visited Catholic churches. I seem to recall more than half the congregation cut out after receiving Communion, and no one was very sociable after the service. People tend to hang around and talk for a while after our services, and we try to make visitors feel welcome.

Personally I think this strength to fellowship among our separated brethren is a great gift to the Church. I hope that all who return to the One Faith will bring this spirit of hospitality with thrm.

 What is remarkable is their ability to transform their space into a sanctuary despite their location.

Light and salt to the world!

At the same time, I really like the sensation that God is present in Catholic Churches, the sense of the holy that is cultivated and the almost relentless focus on Christ in contrast to man. That is something I admire about the Mass.

-Tina “Cultivating a Sense of the Holy Really is Remarkable” G

May we all do so together, each and every one of us in unity with the Truth.

 

[plaintruth]

oh really? would you care to say the same thing about issues on slavery, which the catholic church tolerated and even approved? or how about the concept of democracy - did it ever florish in the Catholicism ?

This is just plain nuts, as evidenced by the many who did not join in the Reformation. One cannot assume they were all implicitly corrupt.

Actually I have heard it argued that Catholic scholasticism laid the groundwork for scientific investigation of the universe - without the Church, there would have been no science, without science, no technology, no tv, no star trek. Likewise imagination was nurtured by the Church. Spend some time in an art gallery and compare the Christian art with non-Christian, the sunny and rich art regarding the saints and the celebration of the Virgin in contrast to the grim and dull work elsewhere - including the greys of the artwork of the Reformation.

-Tina “There, that Ought to Confuse EVERYONE” G

 

[JM3]

Just wondering if Luther hadn’t presented his thesis that day, and kicked off the reformation, was the reformation bound to happen anyway?

Yes, it would have happened anyway.

THE ROOTS OF THE REFORMATION

BY KARL ADAM

It was not ecclesiastical abuses that made him the opponent of the Catholic Church, but the conviction that she was teaching falsely. And this conviction dates from long before the fatal 17th October, 1517. He had interiorly abandoned the teaching of the Church long before he outwardly raised the standard of revolt. Certainly, as early as 1512, without as yet knowing or wishing it, he had grown away from the Church’s belief (Lortz, vol. i, p. 191).

Ockhamism had a decisive influence on Luther. He described himself as a member of the Ockhamist school (sum occamicae factionis).

From Ockhamism Luther received his anti-metaphysical tendencies, his dislike of the Aristotelian and Scholastic doctrine founded on the objective validity of universal concepts. From Ockham too he took his concept of God.

Particularly important for Luther’s inner development is the Ockhamist doctrine of justification.

The strange and tragic thing in Luther’s development was that, in his Ockhamist aversion from all metaphysics and especially from the “old way” of Scholasticism, he remained closed to the traditional Catholic doctrine of grace as represented by the great masters of Scholasticism, Albert the Great, Thomas Aquinas and Bonaventure. It suffered indeed a temporary decline in the late Middle Ages, but was taken up again by the “Prince of Thomists” Johannes Capreolus and re-established in all its ancient purity by Luther’s contemporary, Cardinal Cajetan. Ockhamist optimism, in fact, in its practical, living results, bordered close on the Pelagian denial of Original Sin.

 

[JM3]

oh really? would you care to say the same thing about issues on slavery, which the catholic church tolerated and even approved? or how about the concept of democracy - did it ever florish in the Catholicism ?

If you are going to make accusations, please document proof that the accusations are valid.

newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by 1voice
They will know that we are Christians by our love.
Again, it is clear from what Pope Benedict states, and I concur, that Christ has overcome the differences. His love has prevailed.

I must have misunderstood Jack Chick all these years.

LOL! Its clear that Jack Chick would not have seen eye to eye with Leo X… and the differences might be a lively discussion.

That doesent weaken the truth that Pope Benedict stated so clearly.

 

[plaintruth]

im not making any accusations. if you read my writeups im not accusing, its probably how you misunderstood it. defensive measures? if you cannot answer the question then that’s fine.

the subject question is merely speculative, so the answers most likely are speculative. nothing really much to discuss in detail

QUOTE=JM3;8082744]If you are going to make accusations, please document proof that the accusations are valid.

newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm

 

[JM3]

im not making any accusations. if you read my writeups im not accusing, its probably how you misunderstood it. defensive measures? if you cannot answer the question then that’s fine.

the subject question is merely speculative, so the answers most likely are speculative. nothing really much to discuss in detail

on slavery, which the catholic church tolerated and even approved?

Again, your proof of this?

The link I provided shows that your understanding of slavery and the Church is misguided.

 

[TinaG]

Again, your proof of this?

The link I provided shows that your understanding of slavery and the Church is misguided.

The picture may be more complex than one article from the Catholic Encyclopedia would indicate. For example:liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Church&slavery.html.

-Tina “Not That I Have Checked That Reference” G

 

[TinaG]

im not making any accusations. if you read my writeups im not accusing, its probably how you misunderstood it. defensive measures? if you cannot answer the question then that’s fine.

the subject question is merely speculative, so the answers most likely are speculative. nothing really much to discuss in detail

QUOTE=JM3;8082744]If you are going to make accusations, please document proof that the accusations are valid.

newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm

Uh, you did accuse the Catholic Church. I re-read your post:

Originally Posted by plaintruth View Post
oh really? would you care to say the same thing about issues on slavery, which the catholic church tolerated and even approved? or how about the concept of democracy - did it ever florish in the Catholicism ?

-Tina “Just Quoting You Here, Dear” G

 

[TinaG]

Guanophore,

I appreciate the work you put into replying to my posts. You are knowledgeable, charitable, understanding, and patient. To respond to each of your points would be to lose the flow of the discussion and create more branches on an already complex tree.

Instead of a point-by-point, I will try to summarize and condense. If I miss something, I am sorry - there are constraints in time and memory and space at work as well.

There probably are good and godly bishops. That does not mean every bishop is faithful, or that all the bishops are faithful. I agree that God watches over His church and is somehow mystically involved in it, but that does not mean that the organized church centered at Rome is the sum of His body on earth. There have been many threads on “Catholic versus catholic” and we do not need to extend the debate into that area on this thread.

Kathleen,

I am sorry if you feel that I have used this thread to vent.

-Tina “Keeping it Short” G

 

[KathleenGee]

Tina…thank you…

But I must say your link showing this morbid picture of a pope charicature…is pretty indicative of slant…

Again, I sense people are drawing on references such as that…and there are better non-Catholic sources out there.

Guanaphore is indeed very knowledgeable and understanding…for me…it is my own sense and helplessness in not being able to redirect or overcome people’s inclinations…In essence I don’t have the grace to touch on every thread…and don’t see it here for me…

 

[JM3]

The picture may be more complex than one article from the Catholic Encyclopedia would indicate. For example:liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Church&slavery.html.

-Tina “Not That I Have Checked That Reference” G

I find it interesting that liberals can make claims and statements without giving proofs and expect people to take their word for it.

From your link: liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Church&slavery.html

362 AD

The local Council at Gangra in Asia Minor excommunicates anyone encouraging a slave to despise his master or withdraw from his service. (Became part of Church Law from the 13th to 20th centuries).

354-430

St. Augustine teaches that the institution of slavery derives from God and is beneficial to slaves and masters. (Quoted by many later Popes as proof of “Tradition”.

650

Pope Martin I condemns people who teach slaves about freedom or who encourage them to escape.

No references are given. No direct quotes. No links to documents.

1435

Pope Eugenius IV condemns the indiscriminate enslavement of natives in the Canary Islands, but does not condemn slavery as such.

Here’s the document. Read it for yourself.

papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm

Sicut Dudum

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

1…Nevertheless, with the passage of time, it has happened that in some of the said islands, because of a lack of suitable governors and defenders to direct those who live there to a proper observance of the Faith in things spiritual and temporal, and to protect valiantly their property and goods, some Christians (we speak of this with sorrow), with fictitious reasoning and seizing and opportunity, have approached said islands by ship, and with armed forces taken captive and even carried off to lands overseas very many persons of both sexes, taking advantage of their simplicity.

1. Therefore, We, to whom it pertains, especially in respect to the aforesaid matters, to rebuke each sinner about his sin, and not wishing to pass by dissimulating, and desiring—as is expected from the pastoral office we hold—as far as possible, to provide salutarily, with a holy and fatherly concern, for the sufferings of the inhabitants, beseech the Lord, and exhort, through the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins, one and all, temporal princes, lords, captains, armed men, barons, soldiers, nobles, communities, and all others of every kind among the Christian faithful of whatever state, grade, or condition, that they themselves desist from the aforementioned deeds, cause those subject to them to desist from them, and restrain them rigorously.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Coming from a LDS background, a convert to Christ, the differences between most Protestants and Catholic are minor (comparatively).

The reason I am Catholic, and not Episcopalian (which I looked at quite thoroughly and attended St James parish for a while) is an aversion to religions that have been fired up by those who claim they have something that was lost.

I find this approach to be lacking, first for the reason, it denies the work of the Holy Spirit in Christian life, lay and clergy. It is an approach that says to me, people screwed it up so bad that Jesus had to abandon what is His and start all over.

If I am going to accept this, there is no reason to not accept Mormonism, SDA, or any other restorationist philosophy.

This is what a person I admire called recently, “the Protestant temptation” and it is always there. Jesus Christ calls us to Him, and that is Who we turn to, wounded as we are.

The Catholic Church views those who have had a valid baptism as Christian, in Jesus Christ, we have unity. There is no other Way, and complaining about the differences, and declaring that the other doesn’t understand God’s Saving Grace is absurd, from someone like myself who came from outside Christianity altogether. All Christians understand Who Jesus Christ is.

There really is no point to all the rest of this thread, IMNHO, other than to boast of one’s own superior belief in Salvation…seriously? If we boast it is because we ARE SAVED, not by ourselves, but in and through Jesus Christ. So someone would have to tell me how it is that any one person on the entire planet is Saved more than anyone else. Christ died for ALL.

To answer the OP. It is an illogical question, because the Protestant Reformation DID happen, therefore, how could one say that it was never bound to happen?

 

[TinaG]

Tina…thank you…

But I must say your link showing this morbid picture of a pope charicature…is pretty indicative of slant…

Again, I sense people are drawing on references such as that…and there are better non-Catholic sources out there.

Guanaphore is indeed very knowledgeable and understanding…for me…it is my own sense and helplessness in not being able to redirect or overcome people’s inclinations…In essence I don’t have the grace to touch on every thread…and don’t see it here for me…

I am not sure which post you are referring to - are you talking about the one on slavery? I just wanted to point out there is more than one side to the story. I don’t regard it as authoritative, if you read my post carefully.

None of us can redirect or overcome people’s inclinations - the best we can do is to speak the truth in love, and we all have trouble doing THAT. We are not responsible for how others respond to what we say. I think you show a great deal of grace.

-Tina "But, then, how would I know? G

 

[KathleenGee]

I grew up in the faith as a cradle Catholic. I grew up with alot of prejudice against my faith by people in public and by my Baptist neighbor. When I was 8, I was invited to go see their church service…and it was in the time we weren’t allowed to attend Protestant church services…very unusual to hear or think that restriction today.

I went with my mother. We got in and the first thing I noticed is that it looked like a secular meeting hall. There was an American flag up like we have. But I looked around and saw nothing symbolic of God. I did not experience at all any holiness. And because it was a meeting hall representing Christian faith, right there, I knew it wasn’t right and proper and conducive to God.

Our Lord was very specific to the Jews in how to build the Temple. God showed us how to ‘make liturgy’ acceptable to Him. He gave us the commandments to show us even how to live and be good. We are always children.

Then the minister got up, and he was wearing this business suit. He looked around and instead of talking in a normal tone of voice…as Jesus did not shout (at street corners, etc.) he started getting very emotional and passionate, and started denouncing the Catholics going to hell, etc. He really frightened me and then I saw the whole place in darkness.

I knew where I was did not please God. And it was not holy. And I experienced first time the presence of a dark spirit. I never wanted to go back to that again.

When I was also 8, I went to daily Mass available before class. I saw this entire intergenerational family sitting in the pew up ahead of me. There was a child holding a baby sibling…another sibling who was older, the mother, and the grandpa. It made me think that each day we live, we are coming closer to our own end in this life. So I never have been one to take things lightly too long. i like to joke around alot. But I have always had a serious side to me, a thinking side.

There is a correct post giving the right perspective directly from the encyclical on slavery. And I have been in parishes many times where there is a clique who is uncharitable…and the priest is talking to them in the homily…but subtly to be more kind, and as a friend said, they think Fr is talking to someone else.

People leave church in part because they are in adoration…after mass I don’t want to talk because I have just been in a great experience with the Lord…and i go home the long way around the lake thinking of Him and the Word and the priest’s homily…enjoy Him in Word and Flesh coming home. People also have alot of problems and worries and are trying to put all this before the Lord after Mass…We have our fellowship many times in small faith groups and begin to open up there.

My father told us we were not moving out of that neighborhood when the blacks began to come in…The Baptists who invited us were moving out because they did not want to be near the blacks. My dad’s new car was broken into by a mixed race gang…and he was very sad…He did alot of work for the poor. Our black neighbors came over to apologize for them, but he said don’t bother…and we all grew up better living among the poor and black.

 

[mark_a]

The Lutheran reformers generally rejected this formula, so far as I can tell. They spoke in the confessions more about the office, than of specific popes. Today’s popes are anything but corrupt, and while I disagree with the primacy ascribed to it by the CC, I don’t see the office corrupt anymore, either.

Jon

As usual I’m late to the party, but how could an office be corrupt?

 

[JonNC]

As usual I’m late to the party, but how could an office be corrupt?

I was thinking in terms of the assumption that the office also had temporal political power.
Perhaps my wording could have been better.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

I don’t think the Church deliberated in becoming a world power. It was just how the Church and Christiandom evolved.

Just as the Apostles Creed had to be better defined in the Nicene Creed, the Church works parallel to society. In times past, the pendulum swung back and forth between clerical power having greater authority over the Church vs the temporal powers. Between Pope Benedict up to Pope Innocent III, they finally got it set up that the Church was to define God’s will over temporal rule, and thus the Christian world always seek God’s will. Doing so brought great stability to feudal times.

However, society, temporal rulers, kingdoms, etc. evolved, issues of corruption came to the forefront, there were debates between the papacy vs conciliar rule…more complexities…and the Reformation came about.

I also wonder if Germany and the Scandinavian countries in some ways reflected what happened with the Orthodox…because of language, culture, geography…another jurisdiction…but unfortunately when they all went to war, Christianity was fractured.

Mainline Christianity with Catholicism is now working for our common unity, some thing I pray for daily.

 

[hn160]

Mainline Christianity with Catholicism is now working for our common unity, some thing I pray for daily.

I believe that we all pray for that event.