Was the universe really created in time?

[Bookcat]

Or perhaps we need time at point of creation.

What is - is.

We cannot change the reality here.

Time is part of creation and began with creation.

 

[oldcelt]

What is - is.

We cannot change the reality here.

Time is part of creation and began with creation.

Time and creation are observably moving together. Stars being born and dying, solar systems developing and colliding, the universe expanding…it’s an ongoing process…not a single event…and that is only what we can see.

 

[Bookcat]

Time and creation are observably moving together. Stars being born and dying, solar systems developing and colliding, the universe expanding…it’s an ongoing process…not a single event…and that is only what we can see.

Generally the discussion has been (from our point of view) the first moment of creation ex nihil.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I don’t know that there is any binding Catholic dogma on the matter, but no, the universe was not created in time. Creation is not a process that happens in time because it does not involve a change. There is no such thing as a state of “being non-existent” that becomes actualized by God. It’s simply the case that all that is real is ultimately actualized by God, so there is no need for a change in God. In order to understand this you have to have a proper understanding of God as the ultimate sustaining cause of all that exists. He is not simply one agent in a causal series of agents that just happens to be the first one in the series that “made up His mind one day” to create the universe.

Does this imply that the universe has an infinite past duration? Not necessarily, although it doesn’t preclude that either. A past-finite universe is still consistent with the timeless, unchanging creative action of God since at every moment of the universe’s finite existence it is ultimately dependent on God as the source of all being.

If “the universe has an infinite past duration” than there is no creation of the universe since it would mean that it always was, so this statement, “the universe has an infinite past duration”, goes against Catholic teaching or any teaching about creation for that matter.

In other words, there would be NO creation, merely a rearranging of what always was.

Either God created absolutely everything out of absolutely nothing or God didn’t.

In other words, either God created or God didn’t.

Catholic teaching is that God created.

Catholic teaching might not be concerned about the “mechanics” of how God did create but about the “fact” that somehow or another, God did create.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Since the cosmos is space and time and created then time itself had a beginning. But surely time cannot be created in time? What was created in time? The universe or time-space? What is the binding catholic dogma or doctrine on time and creation?

Until time was created, there was no time.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I didn’t say that nothing is something but instead nothing to something is a change.

You may call it “change”, others refer to it as “creation”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I think “time” has meaning beyond what physics can describe. As Catholics we ought to consider what time means for pure spiritual beings such as angels. As created beings we would suppose that they are somehow subject to time.

We are used to thinking that they are not subject to the usual laws of the “physical world” although our Faith teaches that they can somehow interact with it. Perhaps our understanding of “pure spirit” is wrong. I tend to think our understanding of time is too limited.

Personally, I “tend to think our understanding” of pretty much everything is “limited”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Creation did not occur in a blink of an eye but is an ongoing process. Our planet is substantially younger than many portions of our universe…something that has been proven scientifically. Just as there are new portions of this earth forming at this very moment. All one need do is observe the mid-oceanic trenches, volcanoes, deltas, child birth and so on.
Therefore, creation is very much in time.

You wrote, “Creation did not occur in a blink of an eye but is an ongoing process.”

I disagree and the reason that I disagree is that I do not look at it as an either/or but as a both/and.

Creation occurred in both LESS than a blink of an eye and is ongoing.

I do NOT look at creation as a “one-shot deal” but as something that had a start but is ongoing.

 

[Ignatius]

Since the cosmos is space and time and created then time itself had a beginning. But surely time cannot be created in time? What was created in time? The universe or time-space? What is the binding catholic dogma or doctrine on time and creation?

Time began at the instant the rest of the cosmos was created.

 

[oldcelt]

Generally the discussion has been (from our point of view) the first moment of creation ex nihil.

I don’t understand your statement. The OP is quite different from what you are saying, as is the observable evidence.

John

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t understand your statement.
John

I was noting that the discussion in this thread is about (from our point of view) the first moment of creation ex nihil. Not the many moments of our time since…

 

[oldcelt]

I was noting that the discussion in this thread is about (from our point of view) the first moment of creation ex nihil. Not the many moments of our time since…

Perhaps, in your interpretation…however, the title says something quite different. BTW…here’s the first post:

Since the cosmos is space and time and created then time itself had a beginning. But surely time cannot be created in time? What was created in time? The universe or time-space? What is the binding catholic dogma or doctrine on time and creation?

John

 

[Aloysium]

Time and creation are observably moving together. Stars being born and dying, solar systems developing and colliding, the universe expanding…it’s an ongoing process…not a single event…and that is only what we can see.

:twocents:

The cosmos is an ongoing process of transformation in time. New stars are “born” as a result of pre-existing matter coming together under gravitational “forces”. The underlying properties that govern the behaviour of matter and space had a beginning and the universe has unfolded since then.

Where we do see creation happening every day, from eternity into time, is in ourselves - the emergence of new persons into this world and in our own formation as members of society and within ourselves rooted in and relating to the Ground of reality.

However, we are not self-created gods. We do not control the world in which we participate, nor do we create our own justice. We in every moment exist as creatures, formed ex nihilo, right here and now.

 

[Tom_Baum]

:twocents:

The cosmos is an ongoing process of transformation in time. New stars are “born” as a result of pre-existing matter coming together under gravitational “forces”. The underlying properties that govern the behaviour of matter and space had a beginning and the universe has unfolded since then.

Where we do see creation happening every day, from eternity into time, is in ourselves - the emergence of new persons into this world and in our own formation as members of society and within ourselves rooted in and relating to the Ground of reality.

However, we are not self-created gods. We do not control the world in which we participate, nor do we create our own justice. We in every moment exist as creatures, formed ex nihilo, right here and now.

You wrote, “We in every moment exist as creatures, formed ex nihilo, right here and now.”

The physicality of our humanity is NOT “formed ex nihilo”, we come from our mother and father and that is the way that God set it up.

I would say that there was only one “ex nihilo” event, moment, whatever one wishes to call it in the physical universe, after that all of the somethings came from something.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

I confuse the philosophical terms that would describe what is here and now, finite, but eternal; but, here goes:
This moment emerges from and within the compassion through which the Word of God causes this and every moment to exist.
I am dependent on God’s act of bringing all this into being.

 

[balto]

If “the universe has an infinite past duration” than there is no creation of the universe since it would mean that it always was, so this statement, “the universe has an infinite past duration”, goes against Catholic teaching or any teaching about creation for that matter.

Well sure, a past-infinite universe contradicts Catholic teaching on the story of Genesis, and I did not deny that the universe has a finite past. But creatio ex nihilo is consistent with a past-infinite universe. A past-infinite universe is still a contingently existing thing that does not exist through its own nature and hence has to be sustained/created by God, who does exist by His nature.

The error that some people keep making on this thread is in assuming that creation involves some kind of change and/or that it was a one time deal. It does not involve any change at all. As Aquinas argues, creation is not a successive event. It is not “nothing” then “something” because there is no such thing as “nothing.” From God’s perspective, there was never a time when creation did not exist regardless of whether it has a temporal beginning or not. All that creatio ex nihilo requires is that contingent realities are only real because God makes them real. They do not have self-subsistent existence, only God does.

 

[balto]

:twocents:

I confuse the philosophical terms that would describe what is here and now, finite, but eternal; but, here goes:
This moment emerges from and within the compassion through which the Word of God causes this and every moment to exist.
I am dependent on God’s act of bringing all this into being.

This is correct, and I think that creatio ex nihilo only requires that this moment in time need not exist and only does so because God imparts being to it. So creation is still happening right now just as strongly as it was in the beginning. It’s just that the beginning was only supernaturally-caused since nothing natural preceded it, unlike this moment in time which has natural and even supernatural causes (inasmuch as natural causes are only real because God sustains/creates them).

 

[Richca]

Since the cosmos is space and time and created then time itself had a beginning. But surely time cannot be created in time? What was created in time? The universe or time-space? What is the binding catholic dogma or doctrine on time and creation?

The universe and time were created together by God. Time began when God created the universe. God alone is eternal, without beginning or end.