Was the Virgin Mary wise?

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LittleSoldier said:
Passionless? This woman is the Ark of the Covenant! She carried the baby Jesus in her womb and gave birth to him. Here is her Magnificat (hardly the words of a passionless woman). 🙂
aquinasandmore.com/catholic-articles/the-magnificat–canticle-of-mary/article/302

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord,
my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He
has looked with favor on His lowly servant.

From this day all generations will call me
blessed: the Almighty has done great things
for me, and holy is His Name.

He has mercy on those who fear Him
in every generation.

He has shown the strength of His arm,
He has scattered the proud in their conceit.

He has cast down the mighty from their
thrones, and has lifted up the lowly.

He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich He has sent away empty.

He has come to the help of His servant Israel
for he has remembered His promise of mercy,
the promise He made to our fathers,
to Abraham and his children forever.

Passionless? Never.

I think that Mary, a very young woman, who expressed her understanding of her role in the Passion of Christ in a way which belied her years, was and is extremely wise. She certainly judged what is true, right, and lasting, exhibited remarkable insight, knew of the promises made to Abraham (a sage?) and Israel and her acceptance of her mission shows excellent judgment. She accepted her mission even though it could have been her death - she trusted in God. This shows a wise outlook, plan, and course of action.

The Theotokos - a very wise woman indeed.
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Such professions of faith don’t mean much unless the Virgin Mary had thoughts and feelings of her own. And if Mary was truly always sinless, she never had any thoughts or feelings of her own, because she just thought and felt exactly how God wanted her to.

Moreover, I don’t think praise from someone without any pride and who never had any pride (remember pride is a sin) means much, although I admit that’s more subjective:shrug:
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Such professions of faith don’t mean much unless the Virgin Mary had thoughts and feelings of her own. And if Mary was truly always sinless, she never had any thoughts or feelings of her own, because she just thought and felt exactly how God wanted her to.
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She had all the thoughts and feelings of her own–they were just consonant with God’s.

As the wise St. Augustine said, “Love God and then do what you will.”

If you are in right mind, your freedom will indeed WILL to do what’s right. But it’s freedom nonetheless.
 
PRmerger said:
By your own words she is indeed not a member of “fallen humanity”.

So, yes, you are quite correct in saying that Mary’s sinless nature means she was not a member of fallen humanity.
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So she’s not human.
 
PRmerger said:
She had all the thoughts and feelings of her own–they were just consonant with God’s.

As the wise St. Augustine said, “Love God and then do what you will.”

If you are in right mind, your freedom will indeed WILL to do what’s right. But it’s freedom nonetheless.
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Ah yes the Catholic definition of freedom:rolleyes:

The freedom to do what one ought.

I believe Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and modern Iran all have (or had) that same freedom (of course they have different versions of ought).

But **real **freedom involves choices.
If someone has only one choice, only one option, then they have no real freedom.

If the Virgin Mary could only think, feel, and act, in a certain (Godly) way, then she had no real freedom. Its debatable whether such a creature would be sentient at all, or merely an extension of the guiding will (in this case God’s).
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Yes, more evidence that if we are designed, its not an intelligent design

For instance, women can easily die in childbirth.
This is not an intelligent design (assuming that the designer was benevolent and all-powerful).

So the design was intelligent but purposefully cruel then?
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It depends; do you consider a parent cruel when a child is punished?
God works on a different scale than I do.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Ah yes the Catholic definition of freedom:rolleyes:

The freedom to do what one ought.

I believe Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and modern Iran all have (or had) that same freedom (of course they have different versions of ought).
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Exactly! 👍

Freedom isn’t freedom unless one can choose to do wrong, no?

But when one is ordered towards God, one will always have the freedom to choose what one ought.
But **real **freedom involves choices.
If someone has only one choice, only one option, then they have no real freedom.
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This is very Catholic of you to say, Angry.
If the Virgin Mary could only think, feel, and act, in a certain (Godly) way, then she had no real freedom. Its debatable whether such a creature would be sentient at all, or merely an extension of the guiding will (in this case God’s).
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And no one here is saying that the VM could “only” think, feel and act in a certain way.

Again, see my analogy of the river. She certainly *could *drink from the water. She just has no desire to do that.

Let’s take another example. Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery. That commandment offers me no shackles, no freedom FROM anything. As I simply have no desire whatsoever to commit adultery.

Am I being coerced against my will?

Or am I simply FREE from the desire to sin in this case?
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
So she’s not human in any meaningful sense.
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You are just being obtuse by this point. By not really listening to what is being said by the posters here, but filtering it thru your own bias you have already answered your own questions.
Yes, Mary is human; so is Jesus. Can you accept a being who is simultaneously divine and human? If not, then you really can’t understand what is being told to you. It’s akin to describing the color red to a blind person, though I would give the blind person the benefit of the doubt that they are really trying to understand. You are losing that benefit rapidly.
Mary is wise; I don’t hold that equal to educated; I do equate it to intelligence in understanding the world in which she lives.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
So she’s not human in any meaningful sense.
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If you consider the desire to drink sewage (see my river analogy) meaningfully human, then I guess you’re right. 😃

But you have bought into the culture of death’s premise that eating sewage is the best we can do. :sad_yes:
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Ah yes the Catholic definition of freedom:rolleyes:

The freedom to do what one ought.

I believe Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and modern Iran all have (or had) that same freedom (of course they have different versions of ought).

But **real **freedom involves choices.
If someone has only one choice, only one option, then they have no real freedom.

If the Virgin Mary could only think, feel, and act, in a certain (Godly) way, then she had no real freedom. Its debatable whether such a creature would be sentient at all, or merely an extension of the guiding will (in this case God’s).
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Has someone called a Godwin on this?
 
Wardog said:
It depends; do you consider a parent cruel when a child is punished?
God works on a different scale than I do.
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I have never been comfortable with the idea of collective guilt and punishment.
And collective guilt and punishment for a single individual crime (eating from the Tree of Knewledge) strikes me as being essentially unjust.
 
PRmerger said:
Exactly! 👍

Freedom isn’t freedom unless one can choose to do wrong, no?

But when one is ordered towards God, one will always have the freedom to choose what one ought.

This is very Catholic of you to say, Angry.

And no one here is saying that the VM could “only” think, feel and act in a certain way.

**Again, see my analogy of the river. She certainly *could ***drink from the water. She just has no desire to do that.

Let’s take another example. Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery. That commandment offers me no shackles, no freedom FROM anything. As I simply have no desire whatsoever to commit adultery.

Am I being coerced against my will?

Or am I simply FREE from the desire to sin in this case?
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If the Virgin Mary did not have the normal human impulse towards sin, then there was nothing remarkable about her resisting it. Because she was never really tempted.
 
Wardog said:
You are just being obtuse by this point. By not really listening to what is being said by the posters here, but filtering it thru your own bias you have already answered your own questions.
Yes, Mary is human; so is Jesus. Can you accept a being who is simultaneously divine and human? If not, then you really can’t understand what is being told to you. It’s akin to describing the color red to a blind person, though I would give the blind person the benefit of the doubt that they are really trying to understand. You are losing that benefit rapidly.
Mary is wise; I don’t hold that equal to educated; I do equate it to intelligence in understanding the world in which she lives.
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I am listening to the posters here.
Though I will acknewledge that I have my own biases just as they do:shrug:
 
PRmerger said:
If you consider the desire to drink sewage (see my river analogy) meaningfully human, then I guess you’re right. 😃

But you have bought into the culture of death’s premise that eating sewage is the best we can do. :sad_yes:
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According to Catholicism virtually everything we do is touched by sin.
Even if we never get much of a chance to do anything (such as those who die as babies or very young children) we are still touched by Original Sin.

Therefore sinning is living, and living is Sinning.

And I have no desire to experience the kind of living death that a sinless life would seem to imply. Cut off from all normal human passions…
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
According to Catholicism virtually everything we do is touched by sin.
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An unsubstantiated assertion.
Even if we never get much of a chance to do anything (such as those who die as babies or very young children) we are still touched by Original Sin.
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Are we totally unaffected by what our ancestors have done?
Therefore sinning is living, and living is Sinning.
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Dramatic but fabricated!
And I have no desire to experience the kind of living death that a sinless life would seem to imply. Cut off from all normal human passions.
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Please specify precisely what you mean…
 
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