Was the Virgin Mary wise?

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Since she didn’t have original sin, was her intellect far above the likes of say socrates or plato? Was she thus wise in the philosophical sense or was she wise in another way?

Is there any Church teaching on this?
 
There is no Church teaching regarding Mary’s intellectual capacity. We know that she was the model of all virtues, but that had little to do with her innate human gifts and everything to do with her conforming her will in all things to God’s will.

We can surmise, however, that she had a good mind from the kind of questions she asked and her responses to life situations. She seemed to have the ability to see through to the heart of an issue, as Jesus did. It stands to reason that God would choose a person with a good mind to be the mother of his Son since he would inherit her physical attributes. Still, her wisdom came from her relationship with God more than from delving into the philosophical questions of the day.
 
I would think that she was very wise but that she didn’t speak often of philosophy. She probably spoke with a simple loving form of wisdom instead of the complicated and sometimes useless philosophies that these men created.
 
It also occurred to me that since, as you wrote, she was conceived without original sin, that her intellect was not clouded by the desire to sin, as ours is. Our intellect has been darkened by sin, so even the greatest philosophers of all time, unless they had the Spirit of God instructing them, could never be fully wise nor have a complete understanding of the mysteries of God. Even the the mysteries of science and philosophy are not complete without the wisdom of God, which is why modern man who denies God’s wisdom, cannot see God in his creation or understand who God is and why we need to look to him who made us for truth, wisdom and understanding.
 
It also occurred to me that since, as you wrote, she was conceived without original sin, that her intellect was not clouded by the desire to sin, as ours is. Our intellect has been darkened by sin, so even the greatest philosophers of all time, unless they had the Spirit of God instructing them, could never be fully wise nor have a complete understanding of the mysteries of God. Even the the mysteries of science and philosophy are not complete without the wisdom of God, which is why modern man who denies God’s wisdom, cannot see God in his creation or understand who God is and why we need to look to him who made us for truth, wisdom and understanding.
What a great answer!
 
It also occurred to me that since, as you wrote, she was conceived without original sin, that her intellect was not clouded by the desire to sin, as ours is. Our intellect has been darkened by sin, so even the greatest philosophers of all time, unless they had the Spirit of God instructing them, could never be fully wise nor have a complete understanding of the mysteries of God. Even the the mysteries of science and philosophy are not complete without the wisdom of God, which is why modern man who denies God’s wisdom, cannot see God in his creation or understand who God is and why we need to look to him who made us for truth, wisdom and understanding.
I’ve had a thought though, if the Virgin was not wise, then she could have (at best) known only the things which the ancients knew. But the ancients did not know important teachings of the faith (like that the soul is the immaterial form of the body). But it seems absurd to say, that the Queen of Heaven herself was less wise than modern Catholics (who do know about the soul, and the creation of the universe). So it seems that Mary, did know things which are called wisdom and so was wise above her times?
 
Since she didn’t have original sin, was her intellect far above the likes of say socrates or plato? Was she thus wise in the philosophical sense or was she wise in another way?

Is there any Church teaching on this?
God can give infused knowledge to whom He desires to have it. We will receive that gift in Heaven. I don’t know of examples of infused knowledge on earth except that certain saints were given knowledge and understanding about spiritual concepts like the Trinity which they say lasted for a short time after an ecstasy.

Mary was wise in her complete trust in God and submission to His will.

Recall that Our Lady is called “Seat of Wisdom” in the Litany of Loreto.
 
Drawing from tradition can sometimes help certain things to be gleaned which might otherwise remain obscure.

The thread’s topic suggests to me personally that I should start by looking to The Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Several partials/excerpts - first, from EWTN’s THE PRESENTATION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
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EWTN:
Religious parents never fail by devout prayer to consecrate their children to the divine service and love, both before and after their birth. Some amongst the Jews, not content with this general consecration of their children, offered them to God in their infancy, by the hands of the priests in the temple, to be lodged in apartments belonging to the temple, and brought up in attending the priests and Levites in the sacred ministry. It is an ancient tradition, that the Blessed Virgin Mary was thus solemnly offered to God in the temple in her infancy.[1] This festival of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin, or, as it is often called by the Greeks, the entrance of the Blessed Virgin into the Temple, is mentioned in the most ancient Greek Menologies extant.

By the consecration which the Blessed Virgin made of herself to God in the first use which she made of her reason, we are admonished of the most important and strict obligation which all persons lie under, of an early dedication of themselves to the divine love and service. It is agreed amongst all masters of Christian morality, that everyone is bound in the first moral instant of the use of reason to convert his heart to God by love; and if divine faith be then duly proposed to him (which is the case of Christian children) by a supernatural assent to it, he is bound then to make an act of faith; also an act of hope in God as a supernatural rewarder and helper, and an act of divine charity …
and also from magnificat.ca’s The Presentation of the Virgin Mary
Magnificat.ca:
It is an ancient and very trustworthy tradition that the Blessed Virgin was thus solemnly offered in the Temple to God at the age of three by Her parents, Saint Anne and Saint Joachim. The Gospel tells us nothing of the childhood of Mary; Her title Mother of God, eclipses all the rest. Where, better than in the Temple, could Mary be prepared for Her mission? Twelve years of recollection and prayer, contemplation and sufferings, were the preparation of the chosen one of God. The tender soul of Mary was adorned with the most precious graces and became an object of astonishment and praise for the holy Angels, as well as of the highest complacency for the adorable Trinity. The Father looked upon Her as His beloved Daughter, the Son as One set apart and prepared to become His Mother, and the Holy Ghost as His undefiled Spouse.
This all makes very good sense in retrospect of our Blessed Mother being presented to us as our model and as the sum of all perfections … a solid first step.

Various definitions when differentiating between knowledge, wisdom, and* knowledge of God,* can sometimes leave obstacles where they overlap.

Father John Hardon S.J.’s Modern Catholic Dictionary defines wisdom as “The intellectual virtue concerning the first or highest causes of all things. It is also the actual possession of such knowledge.”

God is the first cause and last end of all things.
 
I agree with Wesley7 that the Virgin Mary excelled in the Christian virtues. I also assert at the same time that, if we read between the lines, we can do great honour to our Blessed Mother by **considering some things that She may not have known **at points in Her earthly life, rather than what She knew.

It helps to further bear in mind before delving into speculative thought, that the love our Blessed Mother bore for Jesus as her sweet Son also included the dimension of Her adoration of Him as her God .

At the wedding feast at Cana for example [John 2:1-11] , I don’t think Mary knew Jesus would change water into wine or that he would even provide wine when they had run out of it. But she knew He could and trusted He* would ; in other words, She had* faith **in Him – in Her God and her Son , confirmed by Her words, “ Do whatever He tells you.” I don’t believe we can say She knew Jesus would do it, but She believed He would . Faith ,as St. Augustine says, “ is belief in those things we do not see, and the reward of this faith is that we shall see all that we have believed.”

So the beginning of the faith of the disciples and others in Jesus ,as the Gospel tells us [John 2:11] , “Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him” , was preceded by the faith of our Blessed Mother – our model of faith.

Can we even describe what it must’ve been like for Mary to have faith in someone who is at the same time God and Her Son ? We need to admit that at some point Jesus had to have told her He was going to suffer and die for us on Calvary. What untold tears must have fallen at that announcement.

Pondering things can give us a better idea of the reality of just how profound the humility of our Blessed Mother was. Considering the time and service she spent in the temple, she had to have known what the Jewish people knew about God and about the long-hoped-for Messiah.

A previous spiritual director of mine once told me he believed our Blessed Mother never knew nor thought she could or would be the mother of the Messiah, and that if she had any aspirations at all in that regard, the most they could have amounted to was to have been a maid or servant to the mother of the Messiah. The more I thought about that one, the more sense it made to me. From the perspective of humility, it makes perfect sense.

It would also explain why Mary was , “greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.” – because she never suspected any of it.

It would further shed a realistic light on the words of the Magnificat, “He has looked with favour on his lowly servant”

What better expression of the profound humility of our Blessed Mother, than to say that the only one worthy or chosen to be God’s holy Mother , never for a moment prior ever even dreamed it would be that way ?

… just a couple of possibilities .

🙂
 
Since she didn’t have original sin, was her intellect far above the likes of say socrates or plato? Was she thus wise in the philosophical sense or was she wise in another way?

Is there any Church teaching on this?
I honestly always imagined the Virgin Mary as an extremely childlike or perhaps even robot-like creature based on Catholic depictions and/or descriptions of her.

This is at least partially due to the fact that when many people talk about innocence what they seem to mean is ignorance (especially when it comes to the area of sexuality). If we accept this definition, and assume that the Virgin Mary was completely innocent (as Catholics do) then it appears that the Virgin Mary was not wise at all.
 
I honestly always imagined the Virgin Mary as an extremely childlike or perhaps even robot-like creature based on Catholic depictions and/or descriptions of her.

This is at least partially due to the fact that when many people talk about innocence what they seem to mean is ignorance (especially when it comes to the area of sexuality). If we accept this definition, and assume that the Virgin Mary was completely innocent (as Catholics do) then it appears that the Virgin Mary was not wise at all.
Your post makes me think you don’t know what wisdom really is if you think a person has to know about having sex to be wise haha. It may be she was wise enough to know that by keeping her innocence she would be better able to serve God.
 
Your post makes me think you don’t know what wisdom really is if you think a person has to know about having sex to be wise haha. It may be she was wise enough to know that by keeping her innocence she would be better able to serve God.
Not at all.

Innocence is often defined as ignorance.
Specifically ignorance regarding what a brutal, unfair, and perverted place the world can be.

When child is exposed to the harsh realities of life (by witnessing a murder, being molested, getting horribly cheated, etc.) we often say that his or her innocence was stolen.

If innocence = ignorance,
and the Virgin Mary was utterly innocent
then she had no wisdom.
 
Your post makes me think you don’t know what wisdom really is if you think a person has to know about having sex to be wise haha. ** It may be she was wise enough to know that by keeping her innocence she would be better able to serve God**.
That might make her a better tool, but it would certainly not make her smarter.
 
I honestly always imagined the Virgin Mary as an extremely childlike or perhaps even robot-like creature based on Catholic depictions and/or descriptions of her.

This is at least partially due to the fact that when many people talk about innocence what they seem to mean is ignorance (especially when it comes to the area of sexuality). If we accept this definition, and assume that the Virgin Mary was completely innocent (as Catholics do) then it appears that the Virgin Mary was not wise at all.
AngryAtheist8;8501344 ...:
This is at least partially due to the fact that when many people talk about innocence what they seem to mean is ignorance (especially when it comes to the area of sexuality). If we accept this definition … .
Well, no , we (I) don’t accept this definition - It’s something you made up. :tsktsk: , 🙂

Catholics accept that Mary was without sin. Period. That is the meaning of "innocence".

Additionally, one can also be knowledgeable about particular things without having personally experienced them.

To concede a point , how knowledgeable do you think anyone was back then ?

To take back half the conceded point :
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EWTN:
(…)
By the consecration which the Blessed Virgin made of herself to God in the first use which she made of her reason, we are admonished of the most important and strict obligation which all persons lie under, of an early dedication of themselves to the divine love and service. It is agreed amongst all masters of Christian morality, that everyone is bound in the first moral instant of the use of reason to convert his heart to God by love; and if divine faith be then duly proposed to him (which is the case of Christian children) by a supernatural assent to it, he is bound then to make an act of faith; also an act of hope in God as a supernatural rewarder and helper, and an act of divine charity …
And
Magnificat.ca:
Where, better than in the Temple, could Mary be prepared for Her mission? Twelve years of recollection and prayer, contemplation and sufferings, were the preparation of the chosen one of God. The tender soul of Mary was adorned with the most precious graces and became an object of astonishment and praise for the holy Angels, as well as of the highest complacency for the adorable Trinity. The Father looked upon Her as His beloved Daughter, the Son as One set apart and prepared to become His Mother, and the Holy Ghost as His undefiled Spouse.
  • would further imply she would have been more knowledgeable than most , being educated by the most educated of her day. But knowledge isn’t wisdom.
 
Not at all.

Innocence is often defined as ignorance.

If innocence = ignorance,
and the Virgin Mary was utterly innocent
then she had no wisdom.
To say that innocence = ignorance is stretching it … close to the breaking point. Lack of knowledge of evil, would keep it in the same ballpark.

A Catholic definition of innocence by Fr. John Hardon S.J., is as follows:

INNOCENCE

Freedom from sin or moral guilt. Applied to Adam and Eve before the Fall, to those who have just been baptized, and to persons who never lost the state of grace because they never committed a grave sin. (Etym. Latin innocens: in-, not + nocere, to harm, hurt.)

What is notable is that the majority of reputable secular dictionaries are in agreement.

The Oxford dictionary defines innocence as
  • the state , quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence:
  • lack of guile or corruption; purity:
Merriam Webster Dictionary’s prime definition of innocence is :

a : freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil : blamelessness

(only as the 5th and final definition is lack of knowledge listed)

American Heritage Dictionary’s prime definition of innocence is

a. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil

(again, lack of knowledge is only listed as the fifth definition)

Several more definitions from Fr. John Hardon S.J.’s Modern Catholic Dictionary would support the plausibility of this post –
Your post makes me think you don’t know what wisdom really is …
I don’t intend that as an insult in any way. But considering these two definitions:
Modern Catholic Dictionary:
WISDOM. The intellectual virtue concerning the first or highest causes of all things. It is also the actual possession of such knowledge.

AGNOSTICISM. The theory that either knowledge or certitude about ultimates is impossible. In practice, it stresses uncertainty about the nature or substance of things, the existence of an immortal soul, the origin of the universe, life after death, and the existence and perfections of a personal God. (Etym. Greek agnōstos, unknown, unknowable.)
And seeing as you lay claim to being agnostic, the definition of wisdom we are using is impossible for you because for agnostics, certitudes about ultimates is impossible ; and God is the first cause and last end of all things.

We aren’t arguing on the same plane. How can someone who doesn’t believe in the existence or perfections of a personal God, try and teach us who do about His Mother ?

🤷
 
@NeedImprovement
I told AngryAtheist that I didn’t think he knew what wisdom meant not you haha. Your breakdown of why innocence is not equal to ignorance was great though 😉
 
I honestly always imagined the Virgin Mary as an extremely childlike or perhaps even robot-like creature based on Catholic depictions and/or descriptions of her.

This is at least partially due to the fact that when many people talk about innocence what they seem to mean is ignorance (especially when it comes to the area of sexuality). If we accept this definition, and assume that the Virgin Mary was completely innocent (as Catholics do) then it appears that the Virgin Mary was not wise at all.
What descriptions of Our Lady make her seem childish and robot-like? I’m curious.
Innocence and ignorance aren’t even remotely related.
How does being experienced in sex make you wise?
 
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