Was there ever a "first" God of the LDS church?

[Horton]

With all do respect, I think it’s best to get information from primary sources. And in the realm of faith, that means asking Catholics what Catholics believe, LDS what LDS believe, Baptists what Baptists believe, etc.

With all due respect many LDS on CAF disagree on what is or isn’t a teaching, doctrine, or belief of the LDS. So a primary source in this instance may not be the best source of information.

 

[superwimp]

With all do respect, I think it’s best to get information from primary sources. And in the realm of faith, that means asking Catholics what Catholics believe, LDS what LDS believe, Baptists what Baptists believe, etc.

Hello,
The best source would be where you will get accurate information regardless of what you are looking up. As a general rule this would mean being cautious about agenda driven websites.

 

[Chris-WA]

With all do respect, I think it’s best to get information from primary sources. And in the realm of faith, that means asking Catholics what Catholics believe, LDS what LDS believe, Baptists what Baptists believe, etc.

Jane_Doe I agree this is a good place to start, but it’s naive to assume you’re getting truthful and complete information from only primary sources. If an organization is not being completely honest about something, you can’t just take their word for it and automatically dismiss outside sources. I know Mormons are often taught by their leadership to never read anything critical of the church, but without the efforts of many both inside and outside the LDS church to expose information that the church either tried to bury or outright deny, we would be in the dark about many subjects.

What we are all trying to get at is the truth, no matter where it comes from. It would be nice if the LDS church was honest about its history, but it’s not, so you need to be willing to get that information wherever it may be.

 

[lax16]

Jane_Doe I agree this is a good place to start, but it’s naive to assume you’re getting truthful and complete information from only primary sources. If an organization is not being completely honest about something, you can’t just take their word for it and automatically dismiss outside sources. I know Mormons are often taught by their leadership to never read anything critical of the church, but without the efforts of many both inside and outside the LDS church to expose information that the church either tried to bury or outright deny, we would be in the dark about many subjects.

What we are all trying to get at is the truth, no matter where it comes from. It would be nice if the LDS church was honest about its history, but it’s not, so you need to be willing to get that information wherever it may be.

I wonder if LDS know that Catholics, and probably most Protestants, are not discouraged from reading outside sources when it comes to religion?

Many things are written about the Catholic Church and we are free to explore and ask questions that may cause us to have doubts. However, the Truth as given to us from Jesus Christ, will stand the test of time and the Church knows this.

I often think of it as dating when looking for someone to marry. One doesn’t marry the first person we meet and we certainly are not afraid of meeting several people so we can be sure of our decision. Imagine if we had someone introduce us to a person for marriage then demand we look no further…yikes

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Simple: because the Father is our Father, and the one we are commanded to worship.

Actually, some individual Mormons do speculate on this a lot. But that’s all they are: speculations. They are not revelations from God and should not be treated as such. Revelations will come when God deems it time, not before.

Pardon me… but I don’t worship my Father because He’s the biggest bully on the playground, nor do I remotely care. Frankly, I find such mentalities to be very juvenile. I worship Him because He is my Father.

This just raises more questions. Who commands us to worship and for what reason? We are eternal entities, just as ancient and existent as heavenly Father. We are only separated to him by degree then, than in kind. Did Heavenly Father from eternity past demand worship of his children? Probably not. It seems to be some rule of existent independent of Heavenly Father that the children of heavenly Father worship him. This begs the question, is it heavenly Father himself making us better? Or is it the universe that rewards the individual for this loyal worship?

As far as Mormon speculation goes I think Mormonism needs to speculate in order to answer these pertinent questions. Christians had to speculate and carefully examine scripture and the tradition to arrive at the doctrine of the trinity as it is defined today. They did this to answer big questions which posed large problems to our understanding of the Faith. What does it mean to worship Jesus? What does it mean to say the Father is God and the Son is God? Likewise Mormons would do well try and address the criticisms Christians have towards their scheme of the universe.

I did not mean to imply that heavenly Father was a bully. I only meant what I said, in that it seems Mormons cannot with any degree of certainty say their god is the greatest. He is the greatest god they know, but that there are realities and beings greater and more glorious than him is possible, if the Mormon accepts the idea we are all eternal intelligences.

 

[jane_doe]

This just raises more questions. **Who commands us to worship and for what reason? **We are eternal entities, just as ancient and existent as heavenly Father. We are only separated to him by degree then, than in kind. Did Heavenly Father from eternity past demand worship of his children? Probably not. It seems to be some rule of existent independent of Heavenly Father that the children of heavenly Father worship him. This begs the question, **is it heavenly Father himself making us better? **Or is it the universe that rewards the individual for this loyal worship?

Pardon me, but I don’t understand why you’re asking the questions I bolded- do you not already know the answers? God’s love, perfection, loyalty, devotion, and many more worship-worthy characteristics are very clear in scripture. Do you not know that? (I’m asking this honestly, not with any sarcasm).

As far as Mormon speculation goes I think Mormonism needs to speculate in order to answer these pertinent questions.

Why? We do not understand all of God’s mystery’s, and it is pure hubristic pride to suppose that we tiny little humans are even capable of understanding them at this time. No, we await God to reveal more of His mysteries when He deems the time right.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Pardon me, but I don’t understand why you’re asking the questions I bolded- do you not already know the answers? God’s love, perfection, loyalty, devotion, and many more worship-worthy characteristics are very clear in scripture. Do you not know that? (I’m asking this honestly, not with any sarcasm).

Why? We do not understand all of God’s mystery’s, and it is pure hubristic pride to suppose that we tiny little humans are even capable of understanding them at this time. No, we await God to reveal more of His mysteries when He deems the time right.

I understand from scripture that God is the being of all good, reason and purpose in existence. From him is everything. The same cannot be said of the God of Mormonism. You said earlier that Heavenly Father was at one point like we are, a mere intelligence, he just progressed further than we are. Was his current position granted to him by himself, his own Heavenly Father or some sort of cosmic rule of the universe that rewards individuals based on their loyalty to their heavenly Father?

From my view the explanation is simple and straight forward. It all comes from God, from the Mormon view I do not know if you can say it does come from God. If we grant an infinite regress of Gods, it could be said eternal glory comes from all the Heavenly Fathers.

I would not go as far as to suggest we ought to commit Hubris. That isn’t what the Fathers of the Church were doing. Rather what they were doing was clarifying who it is they worship. Who is this Jesus to whom we give all honour praise and glory? What does it mean to say Jesus is God? In answering these questions we are seeking to understand who he is by what he has revealed in his Son.

Mormons are faced with innumerable questions and challenges which they have no interest in answering. I understand that at a certain point we have to say, we don’t know. I do not know how God operates in the world. I do not comprehend God’s eternity. Mormonism however can’t even answer basic questions about the nature of their God/gods. Christians are not wrong in asking Mormons whether or not there is a first God, because Mormon claims about intelligences seem to imply entities before heavenly Father. Statements by LDS leaders imply God was once a man like any other.

You can say the Church hasn’t canonized their sayings or made it official, but they still impact the shape of Mormonism and how it’s understood. Why, if you feel you are unable to speak on these matters, does Mormon theology seem to imply what Christians say Mormons believe? That is a series of infinite gods or perhaps a series of gods leading to a first god? There is no room in Mormonism for Monotheism it seems.

 

[jane_doe]

I understand from scripture that God is the being of all good, reason and purpose in existence. From him is everything. The same cannot be said of the God of Mormonism. You said earlier that Heavenly Father was at one point like we are, a mere intelligence, he just progressed further than we are. Was his current position granted to him by himself, his own Heavenly Father or some sort of cosmic rule of the universe that rewards individuals based on their loyalty to their heavenly Father?

From my view the explanation is simple and straight forward. It all comes from God, from the Mormon view I do not know if you can say it does come from God. If we grant an infinite regress of Gods, it could be said eternal glory comes from all the Heavenly Fathers.

I would not go as far as to suggest we ought to commit Hubris. That isn’t what the Fathers of the Church were doing. Rather what they were doing was clarifying who it is they worship. Who is this Jesus to whom we give all honour praise and glory? What does it mean to say Jesus is God? In answering these questions we are seeking to understand who he is by what he has revealed in his Son.

Mormons are faced with innumerable questions and challenges which they have no interest in answering. I understand that at a certain point we have to say, we don’t know. I do not know how God operates in the world. I do not comprehend God’s eternity. Mormonism however can’t even answer basic questions about the nature of their God/gods. Christians are not wrong in asking Mormons whether or not there is a first God, because Mormon claims about intelligences seem to imply entities before heavenly Father. Statements by LDS leaders imply God was once a man like any other.

You can say the Church hasn’t canonized their sayings or made it official, but they still impact the shape of Mormonism and how it’s understood. Why, if you feel you are unable to speak on these matters, does Mormon theology seem to imply what Christians say Mormons believe? That is a series of infinite gods or perhaps a series of gods leading to a first god? There is no room in Mormonism for Monotheism it seems.

Pardon me, but it appears to me that you have little respect for other faiths or patiently awaiting God, and many other things. What you suggest here is pure huberis and I have no interest in indulging this conversation further.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Pardon me, but it appears to me that you have little respect for other faiths or patiently awaiting God, and many other things. What you suggest here is pure huberis and I have no interest in indulging this conversation further.

What I suggest is nothing more than answering important questions which call into question the very things you believe are due God. Why worship an entity who might have another entity greater than himself? Why can’t I worship heavenly Grandfather and receive salvation from him? He gave it to his heavenly son why not give it to his earthly grandchildren? Is salvation from God himself or a result of being loyal to God and the rules of the universe granting that salvation? What does it mean for God to have once been a man like us? It would seem to imply God was a sinner and why should we worship anything less than perfection?

These are the genuine sort of questions that prohibit the Christian from even considering the Mormon faith. in the absence of answers from Mormons it is left to Christians to work off of the inferences of Mormon theology, from the statements of Mormon leaders and conclude that there seems to be someone greater than Heavenly Father in existence.

I will admit I don’t respect Mormonism as a faith. One of the reasons I don’t respect it is because these sort of questions are not answered. It is an important question to answer whether or not there are other gods because that encourages questions about the nature of reality if there are an infinite amount of gods presiding in the universe. You’re free not to participate further but I didn’t raise this line of questioning out of malice. Like I said earlier, Mormonism is a fascinating religion to me in how much it differs from the Christian Faith.

 

[Chris-WA]

I wonder if LDS know that Catholics, and probably most Protestants, are not discouraged from reading outside sources when it comes to religion?

Many things are written about the Catholic Church and we are free to explore and ask questions that may cause us to have doubts. However, the Truth as given to us from Jesus Christ, will stand the test of time and the Church knows this.

I often think of it as dating when looking for someone to marry. One doesn’t marry the first person we meet and we certainly are not afraid of meeting several people so we can be sure of our decision. Imagine if we had someone introduce us to a person for marriage then demand we look no further…yikes

I don’t think they realize this and how important such freedom really is. They are highly discouraged from reading anything about the church not approved by the church. The leadership really makes the membership fearful of doing so. This gets brought up at every general conference. It’s one of the many cult-like features of Mormonism.

 

[gazelam]

I wonder if LDS know that Catholics, and probably most Protestants, are not discouraged from reading outside sources when it comes to religion?

Many things are written about the Catholic Church and we are free to explore and ask questions that may cause us to have doubts. However, the Truth as given to us from Jesus Christ, will stand the test of time and the Church knows this.

I often think of it as dating when looking for someone to marry. One doesn’t marry the first person we meet and we certainly are not afraid of meeting several people so we can be sure of our decision. Imagine if we had someone introduce us to a person for marriage then demand we look no further…yikes

There is no prohibition against reading LDS history by non-LDS sources. An Ensign (official LDS publication) article by Elder Steven E. Snow (LDS Church Historian) here: lds.org/new-era/2013/06/balancing-church-history?lang=eng includes this quote…

*Certainly, the world has changed in the last generation or two. The Internet has put all kinds of information at our fingertips—good, bad, truthful, untruthful—including information on Church history. You can read a great deal about our history, but it’s important to read about it and understand it in context. The difficulty with some information online is that it’s out of context and you don’t really see the whole picture.

Information that tries to embarrass the Church is generally very subjective and unfair. We should seek sources that more objectively describe our beliefs and our history. Some websites are very mean-spirited and can be sensational in how they present the information. Look for sources by recognized and respected historians, whether they’re members of the Church or not.*

I hope this helps…

 

[gazelam]

I don’t think they realize this and how important such freedom really is. They are highly discouraged from reading anything about the church not approved by the church. The leadership really makes the membership fearful of doing so. This gets brought up at every general conference. It’s one of the many cult-like features of Mormonism.

Could you please point me to one or more of these warnings issued each General Conference?

Here is the link to the most recent General Conference: lds.org/general-conference?lang=eng

And here is the link to all General Conferences back to 1971: lds.org/general-conference/conferences?lang=eng

Thanks in advance…

 

[lax16]

There is no prohibition against reading LDS history by non-LDS sources. An Ensign (official LDS publication) article by Elder Steven E. Snow (LDS Church Historian) here: lds.org/new-era/2013/06/balancing-church-history?lang=eng includes this quote…

*Certainly, the world has changed in the last generation or two. The Internet has put all kinds of information at our fingertips—good, bad, truthful, untruthful—including information on Church history. You can read a great deal about our history, but it’s important to read about it and understand it in context. The difficulty with some information online is that it’s out of context and you don’t really see the whole picture.

Information that tries to embarrass the Church is generally very subjective and unfair. We should seek sources that more objectively describe our beliefs and our history. Some websites are very mean-spirited and can be sensational in how they present the information. Look for sources by recognized and respected historians, whether they’re members of the Church or not.*

I hope this helps…

Thank you for this information. However, it does not jive with my real-life experiences with Mormons. About twenty years ago, I had a part-time job working for a Mormon guy and I knew very little about Mormonism.

I told him I was given a book by someone called The God Makers and did he know anything about it. He warned me that if I read that book he would fire me. I thought he was kidding but he wasn’t.

I have been called “anti” on these Mormon threads numerous times if I post anything they deemed negative. One time, I quoted BY and was called “anti”.

Have you ever read anything that would be considered anti-Mormon?

 

[jane_doe]

Have you ever read anything that would be considered anti-Mormon?

Yes, I’ve also read things which are critical to the LDS church. There’s a big difference between the two categories:

Critical towards LDS-- Written by an author whom has a code of ethics: information from high quality sources, explained in historical and theological context, presented honestly, and when errors are shown / new information arises the author corrects their facts accordingly.

Anti-LDS —Any code of ethics takes backseat to a smear/hate campaign. Frequently includes Information taken out of context, sensationalism, “facts” twisted, false presentations, downright lies, and when presented with correct facts the author ignores them.

 

[lax16]

Yes, I’ve also read things which are critical to the LDS church. There’s a big difference between the two categories:

Critical towards LDS-- Written by an author whom has a code of ethics: information from high quality sources, explained in historical and theological context, presented honestly, and when errors are shown / new information arises the author corrects their facts accordingly.

Anti-LDS —Any code of ethics takes backseat to a smear/hate campaign. Frequently includes Information taken out of context, sensationalism, “facts” twisted, false presentations, downright lies, and when presented with correct facts the author ignores them.

Please give an example of each one.

 

[Horton]

What I suggest is nothing more than answering important questions which call into question the very things you believe are due God. Why worship an entity who might have another entity greater than himself? Why can’t I worship heavenly Grandfather and receive salvation from him? He gave it to his heavenly son why not give it to his earthly grandchildren? Is salvation from God himself or a result of being loyal to God and the rules of the universe granting that salvation? What does it mean for God to have once been a man like us? It would seem to imply God was a sinner and why should we worship anything less than perfection?

These are the genuine sort of questions that prohibit the Christian from even considering the Mormon faith. in the absence of answers from Mormons it is left to Christians to work off of the inferences of Mormon theology, from the statements of Mormon leaders and conclude that there seems to be someone greater than Heavenly Father in existence.

I will admit I don’t respect Mormonism as a faith. One of the reasons I don’t respect it is because these sort of questions are not answered. It is an important question to answer whether or not there are other gods because that encourages questions about the nature of reality if there are an infinite amount of gods presiding in the universe. You’re free not to participate further but I didn’t raise this line of questioning out of malice. Like I said earlier, Mormonism is a fascinating religion to me in how much it differs from the Christian Faith.

Thank you for your well thought out posts here. I have found the last response you received is typical when unanswerable questions are asked or difficult concepts are proposed. I really believe if the LDS really examined these concepts or tried to answer these questions the would begin to see what we see.

 

[jane_doe]

Please give an example of each one.

Critical-LDS: I’d have to think on it (it’s early still)

Anti-LDS: Godmakers (as you provided the example)

 

[lax16]

Critical-LDS: I’d have to think on it (it’s early still)

Anti-LDS: Godmakers (as you provided the example)

The book was given to me by a Church of the Nazarene youth pastor. He was probably concerned I would convert to Mormonism since we had so many LDS friends.

Do you think my Mormon boss should have threatened to fire me? If it’s not true, why does it matter? Why not offer to answer any questions or offer a rebuttal instead?

The extreme reaction of my Mormon boss is an example of why people think Mormons are afraid of anything that makes them look bad.

 

[jane_doe]

The book was given to me by a Church of the Nazarene youth pastor. He was probably concerned I would convert to Mormonism since we had so many LDS friends.

Do you think my Mormon boss should have threatened to fire me? If it’s not true, why does it matter? Why not offer to answer any questions or offer a rebuttal instead?

The extreme reaction of my Mormon boss is an example of why people think Mormons are afraid of anything that makes them look bad.

“Godmakers” is… frankly a trash book full of lies. In regards to the people in your story:

• Nazarene pastor acted wrongly in giving you the book. A pastor should give good books designed to strengthen your faith, and not books of of lies designed to demonize another’s faith. He probably acted out of fear.
• Your boss acted wrongly in threatening to fire you. Yes, it’s a trash book, but you have the right to read trash if you want. He probably acted out of anger towards it.

Now on to you: are you going to stereotype a group of people from one example of person acting badly (in this case your boss)? Should I do the same based off the example of your old Nazarene pastor?

 

[lax16]

“Godmakers” is… frankly a trash book full of lies. In regards to the people in your story:

• Nazarene pastor acted wrongly in giving you the book. A pastor should give good books designed to strengthen your faith, and not books of of lies designed to demonize another’s faith. He probably acted out of fear.
• Your boss acted wrongly in threatening to fire you. Yes, it’s a trash book, but you have the right to read trash if you want. He probably acted out of anger towards it.

Now on to you: are you going to stereotype a group of people from one example of person acting badly (in this case your boss)? Should I do the same based off the example of your old Nazarene pastor?

He was not my pastor. I have always been a practicing Catholic. I can’t speak for what Protestant youth ministers do, however I know that at the time I didn’t even know what the Church of the Nazarene was and had just met my first Mormons a few years earlier.

My boss told me he told someone, maybe his bishop, about it and this is what they said to do. He is no longer Mormon, neither are his ex-wife and kids. We were all fairly young and doing what we thought was right at the time.

I don’t need to stereotype Mormons. I live in Utah and could curl your hair with things that have been said or done to my family and people I know because we are Catholic. Talk about stereotyping!!! I have chosen to remain friendly and open because I believe we are all on a faith journey doing the best we can.

Here’s another example. One of our (now ex-)Mormon friends gave my Jewish husband the book Hitler’s Pope. Really? That book has been debunked and the author has apologized for writing it. It goes both ways.