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distracted
Guest
Would you prefer that people who are right and know they are right pretend they are NOT right?
don’t worry… that’s exactly waht a lot of Catholics (so called) do…
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don’t worry… that’s exactly waht a lot of Catholics (so called) do…
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wmscott
Guest
I agree, of course, but because of apostolic succession, we have all of the “valid” Sacraments, especially the Eucharist and real presence, no doubt. I was trying to draw a few similarities that we all can agree on as truths.
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distracted
Guest
and thanks for that because i had rather “forgotten” (momentarily) about apostolic succession…
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Cool_Hand_Luck
Guest
You miss quote me sir. I messed up the code, and it looked like my words. The original post was some one else. Read below that to see how I responded to this individual
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wmscott
Guest
Thanks, I know that I get zoned in sometimes too.
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distracted
Guest
i’m not a sir… but i forgive you…You miss quote me sir. I messed up the code, and it looked like my words. The original post was some one else. Read below that to see how I responded to this individual
(for the insult… JUST Kidding!!)
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distracted
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who said the original… illogical comment?You miss quote me sir. I messed up the code, and it looked like my words. The original post was some one else. Read below that to see how I responded to this individual
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Cool_Hand_Luck
Guest
That would be Pinkyyy. Sorry for calling you Sir, and thank you for the forgivenesswho said the original… illogical comment?
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RNRobert
Guest
Jesus put himself as God: “Before Abraham was, I am” and told his followers that they would have no life in them unless they ate his flesh an drank his blood. If Jesus wasn’t who He said He was, he would not have just been “an eccentric young man,” he would have been a lunatic.
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RNRobert
Guest
I think one problem that many Protestants and others outside the Church have with it is the Church’s insistence on obedience to Her teachings (not just on matters of faith , but on moral issues such as contraception, divorce and remarriage, etc.). I believe this problem stems from our sinful nature- we don’t like anyone telling us what to do- we prefer to “do what is right in our own eyes.” But Hebrews 13:17 tells us to “obey our leaders and defer to them.” and Jude 11 warns us to stay away from false teachers “who perish in the rebellion of Korah.” What was Korah’s rebellion? In Numbers 16 we see how Korah and his followers grumbled against Moses and Aaron- in other words, they were rebelling against the authority appointed by God. Many would-be reformers (like Luther, Jan Hus, etc.) saw the laxity in morals among the clergy of their time and assumed (wrongly) that because the lives of church leaders were sinful, their leadership (and thus the sacraments) were invalid. However, we seen in John 11:49-52 how the high priest Caiaphas was able to make a prophecy about Jesus, not because he was holy (far from it) but because of his position. So it is with the leaders of the Church. They are called to live lives of holiness as an example to their flock, But even when they fall short, this does not nullify the efficacy of their office.
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distracted
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I’m not sure about this… I think that maybe in the beginning, these “reformers” were offended by the behavior of some clergy… but that’s just MAYBe… I think luther just used that as an excuse because he was about as lawless as a person can get… once said that if a person has accepted Crhist, he can commit adultery 20 times in a day & it won’t affect his salvation
I think there is one main reason people break from the Church or refuse to accept it in he 1st place and that is that they don’t, as you say, appreciate beingtold what to do… They prefer freedom over God’s holiness… and yet sin does not bring freedom, as we Catholics (& others) know…Good point to make… Jesus said to do as they say, but do not do as they do…
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distracted
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distracted
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Should we say we are are not right when we are? Should we deny that we are right and others wrong if that is the case? You wnt us to lie?
The Church does not teach anything remotely like this… You are 'too angry", it seems… The Bible says to be angry “but sin not”… I have said things on this forum i wish i hadn’t… so i am no one to talk… but still… a lot of people here… exaggerate and say things they shouldn’t… put words in people’s mouths, etc…
One of the most diffiuclt passages in the Bible (to live by) is St. Matthew 25:31- which says that whatever we do to the least of Christ’s brethren we do to Him… so wahtever you say to someone here you say to Him…
I am preaching to myself as well… I struggle with this… because, well i am reminded of this joke i heard once…
A priest’s eyes were going bad and he had to get a stronger eye- glass prescription. Another priest asked him why his eyes had gone so bad. The priest replied, “I strained my eyes trying to see Jesus in other people.”
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RNRobert
Guest
There were other “reformers” like Hus (whom I mentioned) and Peter Waldo (founder of the Waldensians) who believed that the sacraments were invalid if the priests were sinful. However, we must remember that Christ preserves his Church through the offices of the clergy regardless of the behavior of some of it’s members (otherwise the Church would have gone off the rails very early).I’m not sure about this… I think that maybe in the beginning, these “reformers” were offended by the behavior of some clergy… but that’s just MAYBe… I think luther just used that as an excuse because he was about as lawless as a person can get… once said that if a person has accepted Crhist, he can commit adultery 20 times in a day & it won’t affect his salvation
I was entering my teenage years when Jimmy Carter was President, and he was not well-regarded in my household. However, my Mom was quick to point out that “regardless of what we think of the man, we must still respect the office.” So it is with the Church. Moses and Aaron were sinful men who disobeyed God at times, but it did not detract from the authority God had given them.
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distracted
Guest
right… but you are preaching to the choir…
This is something the protestant posters here need to hear…
I am a card-carrying, enthused-about-the-Church-to-the-point-of-being-extremely annoying kind of Catholic…
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RNRobert
Guest
If you actually read the Gospels, nobody who came into contact with Jesus thought of him as an “eccentric young man.” They thought he was out of his mind or possessed (Matt 12:24, Mark 3:22, Luke 11:15, John 7:20, 8:48), or the Holy One of God (John 6:67). Jesus was very polarizing: people either feared and hated him, or loved and adored him- there was no middle ground.
So there you have it- Lord, liar or lunatic. To borrow from C.S. Lewis,"let us not have any patronizing nonsense about Him being an ‘eccentric young man.’
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wisdomseeker
Guest
So, your excuse for rejecting the Truth is because the way Catholics speak?
if you really wanted to know the Truth, you wouldn’t allow nothing to stop you.
the pharisees loved God but they did not like how Jesus spoke.
**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D…
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LutheranDK
Guest
Gee, thanks for making the case confessional Lutherans are trying to make even harder, by giving RCs ammo for the “you just don’t want to see the truth”-reasoining :banghead:
That attitude is NO reason to stay out of the RC church. Because IF the RC-church is the true Church, and infallible (and please take note that I am NOT conceding that!), then one should join it regardless of its attitude.
Lutherans also say to calvinists and other semi-heretics on various subjects “We’re right, and you’re wrong”. Because TRUTH cannot be relative.
To the main point of the thread:
I watch what I say about Christ’s Church. But I do not equate the Church Catholic (which I have defined a billion times by now) with the RC-church. And therefore, I do not accept that the warning is relevant to those who claim that the RC-church is not the true Church.
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LutheranDK
Guest
I’d like you to back up this whole rant with something else than “I heard it in Sunday School”.I’m not sure about this… I think that maybe in the beginning, these “reformers” were offended by the behavior of some clergy… but that’s just MAYBe… I think luther just used that as an excuse because he was about as lawless as a person can get… once said that if a person has accepted Crhist, he can commit adultery 20 times in a day & it won’t affect his salvation
Good point to make… Jesus said to do as they say, but do not do as they do…
Yes, it is true that Luther said that - but he was trying to MAKE A POINT!!! He was NOT telling people to commit adultery 20 times a day - he was making the point that salvation is not the result of any good deeds on our part. God is not a merchant, from whom you can buy salvation if you have enough good deeds!
You obviously have a lot of hate towards those who disagree with you (isn’t it FUN when the “hate”-argument gets turned around?), but you seem to have lost your ability to think clearly and objectively along the way.
Secondly: Luther did not “break away” from the RC-church. He was excommunicated - i.e - tossed out, because he refused to compromise with biblical truth which the RC-church wanted to suppres. Luther never intended to break away from the RC-church - he wanted to get reforms through a church which had become rotten to the core.
The reason someone break away from the RC-church? If I wanted to be as rude as you have, I could say that the main reason is not unwillingness to submit to authority, but unwillingness to become a slave to anyone but Christ.
But I don’t want to, so I’m not going to…
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dessert
Guest
I think the point distracted is trying to make is that Saul(Paul) was struck down once and this could happen still in the 21st century. We all have limits even God.I’d like you to back up this whole rant with something else than “I heard it in Sunday School”.
Yes, it is true that Luther said that - but he was trying to MAKE A POINT!!! He was NOT telling people to commit adultery 20 times a day - he was making the point that salvation is not the result of any good deeds on our part. God is not a merchant, from whom you can buy salvation if you have enough good deeds!
You obviously have a lot of hate towards those who disagree with you (isn’t it FUN when the “hate”-argument gets turned around?), but you seem to have lost your ability to think clearly and objectively along the way.
Secondly: Luther did not “break away” from the RC-church. He was excommunicated - i.e - tossed out, because he refused to compromise with biblical truth which the RC-church wanted to suppres. Luther never intended to break away from the RC-church - he wanted to get reforms through a church which had become rotten to the core. **This is rude**
The reason someone break away from the RC-church? If I wanted to be as rude as you have, I could say that the main reason is not unwillingness to submit to authority, but unwillingness to become a slave to anyone but Christ.
But I don’t want to, so I’m not going to…
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