Watchtower Governing Body Casts Its Ballot on "New Light" For Voting

[Protestant101]

Really? How so? It was the Governing Body who would not allow them to purchase the card. And because of that, they were beaten, raped and murdered. Now, they are allowed to purchase voting cards… and even vote. What do you say to those who watched family members die? Opps. My bad. I guess Jehovah didn’t mind so much after all?

This kind of mentality is the exact same mindset which would look at a woman who was raped and beaten, and blame her for these outrageous acts, just because of the clothes she was wearing. Victims of violence and murder are not the cause of the unspeakable crime against them. You need to stop blaming people for stuff they are not to blame for.

There are much more sound ways to show how Jehovah’s Witnesses, have had “new light,” “changing light,” and “false light.” I would say that most who jump on the bandwagon in threads like this don’t even really have an understanding about what Jehovah’s Witnesses really believe because they don’t take the time to know. Jehovah’s Witnesses are no worse than any of us.

 

[Vasian]

This kind of mentality is the exact same mindset which would look at a woman who was raped and beaten, and blame her for these outrageous acts, just because of the clothes she was wearing. Victims of violence and murder are not the cause of the unspeakable crime against them. You need to stop blaming people for stuff they are not to blame for.

That is a terrible attempt at a parallel analogy.
The primary issue is that JW’s live under compulsion of being disfellowshipped for not complying, i.e. getting kicked out, of “God’s only true organization on earth today”. This brings with it all sorts of very serious implications.
The legalistic, and very heavy handed Laws keep people under the power of compulsion.
I know it first hand as I lived it and as an Elder I enforced it.

There are much more sound ways to show how Jehovah’s Witnesses, have had “new light,” “changing light,” and “false light.”

Yes? How?
I would say that most who jump on the bandwagon in threads like this don’t even really have an understanding about what Jehovah’s Witnesses really believe because they don’t take the time to know.
Again… I know it first hand as I lived it, and as an Elder I enforced it.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are no worse than any of us.

Yes, you are correct.
Except JW’s are guided by men who rule on a basis of legalism, enforced by a strict law-code, a law code so strict and enforced by the threat of heresy that it lead many to be raped, murdered and executed over a political card.

Once again I direct YOUR attention to your own religion’s statement…

“The first step of apostasy is to get up a creed, telling us what we shall believe. The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship. The third is to try members by that creed. The fourth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed. And fifth, to commence persecution against such.”

“Doings of the Battle Creek Conference, Oct. 5 & 6, 1861” (DJVU). Review and Herald 18 (19): 148. 1861-10-08. adventistarchives.org/doc…-19/index.djvu. Retrieved 2006-11-06.

 

[Vasian]

This article may “say” all of this, that it is up to each person to decide if they choose to vote or not.

However; all the JW’s that I have known and still know today will **Not **vote. They tell me that they don’t because that would make them part of the system of the Government of the U.S. and they won’t do that.

This article may say they can choose for themselves, but the Kingdom Hall is still teaching that it is wrong to vote in any government election. And yes they are still afraid to vote for fear of being disfellowshiped. Just like none of them will join the Service. (Army, Air Force, ect.) yet it is their right to if they wish, but just let them and see how fast they are disfellowshiped.

Of course this article is going to say it is their choice, to say otherwise would be infringing on their civil rights of the land and I believe breaking the law. Legally they can’t tell their memembers that they Can’t vote. Just like the Catholic Church won’t tell us Who to Vote for, yet the Catholic Church reminds us of what “topics” are important to us as the church body.

There is a lot of truth in your writ. However, there are some who vote and just do not say anything to anyone. It is quite easy in many parts of the U.S. as one can now vote by mail.

 

[Vasian]

Well, “JWs” are comprised of those leaders too. They are all part of the same package. And this denomination cannot be faulted in the way you are trying to do here.

Why not?
Please elaborate?

If I were to start saying on this forum things like: “Catholics in general are not responsible for such and such, only their leadership,” you would soon be all over me crying about how if I am going to attack your leaders; then I am attacking you.

Some may, but they would be incorrect in offering such a response.
The fact is, is in the case of the WTS their leadership is comprised of a small hand full of men at the top who are in fact responsible for the entire body of Laws that are enforced. This holds true for any organization where there is board members who set the foundation be it religious or business. Except when it comes to the WTS, there are no checks and balances there to keep in check as it were the making of laws that have been at the basis of unnecessary deaths to to bogus beliefs over vaccinations, organ transplants or whatever the latest “message from God” may have been or will be in the future.

In your zeal to characterize this denomination as “not having the truth” you state mistruths yourself to try and discredit them.

I have an issue with believing that any one religion is, as having “the truth” including any religion that tells me that I as a Christian has to still keep the sabbath, or that somehow Christians are to be vegetarians, etc. etc.
What statement made is a “mistruth”?

It would be better to just discuss their teachings, and show from the Bible why they are wrong; which, I think most of us here would agree that they are. But, Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have everything wrong; just like Catholics don’t have everything right.

Who stated JW’s have “everything” wrong?
Please direct us to that statement herein?

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

Exactly. Their stand on organ transplants and blood is very similar. It has changed repeatedly over the years…

I don’t see how it is any different than if the Watchtwoer Society made a rule that Jehohovah’s Witnesses can not wear seat belts. Just another arbitrary rule… and so Jehovah’s Witnesses stop wearing them. And they begin to die by dozens… deaths that could have easily been prevented had they been allowed to wear seat belts. And this goes on for years and years… of course it doesn’t affect the Governing Body who don’t own cars and instead take the subway. Other than they say, “Oh how sad that our brothers and sisters are dying. But look hwo faithful they are abstaining from the evil seat belt!”

Jehovah’s Witnesses wouldn’t dream of going against the no seat belt rule because to do so is to go against Jehovah and how foolish is that when Armegeddon is literally months away??

So good JWs bury their loved ones… their children, their spouses, their mothers and fathers… until finally, one day, they go to their mailbox and pull out the latest Watchtwoer that states that it has been decided that the wearing of seat belts should be left up to the individual. So the JWs begin wearing seat belts again and talk about how wonderful it is to be part of an Organization that feeds them truth… at the proper time. This is normally where I’d roll my eyes but I find it all just too sad.

Wow. This line of thinking is EXACTLY how JWs operate. I got out of the organization back in 1992, but am shocked at the voting thing now being a ‘conscience’ issue. I remember sitting stately during national anthems and abstaining from voting in the evil satanic elections. Next thing you know there will be birthday cakes! Wonders never cease.

 

[Vasian]

Next thing you know there will be birthday cakes! Wonders never cease.

Many JW’s are re-examining the Book of Job, and are now talking amongst themselves about how Job does appear to have been celebrating his son’s birthday.

 

[T_More]

Protestant101, there are people on this thread that were inside this religion, so I think we are more than qualified on commenting on the WTS’ inner workings. Try reading Ray Franz’ book about how the governing body worked and you will see what we are talking about. Franz’ is more than qualified as well, as he was ONE of the members of the governing body and his conscience could not allow himself any longer to be part of it, hence the name of his book.

 

[mackbrislawn]

And this denomination cannot be faulted in the way you are trying to do here.

It would be better to just discuss their teachings, and show from the Bible why they are wrong; which, I think most of us here would agree that they are. But, Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have everything wrong; just like Catholics don’t have everything right.

“This denomination.” Of course JW’s do not at all characterize themselves as a “denomination.” They are the true church and everybody else are apostates and goats. (Kind of like a miniature Catholic Church.) Oops, JW’s don’t call themselves a church either.

“Show from the Bible why they are wrong.” Some evangelical outreaches to JW’s even recommend not using the Bible at all! But when talking to a JW to show how the Watchtower has failed in its prophecies and how its teachings have changed. Because, after all, JW’s accept the WT teachings because they believe the Watchtower is “God’s channel of communication to mankind.” (Yes, there is a strong parallel to the Catholic Church, in fact, in my opinion, the Mormon church and the Watchtower were set up by Protestants who realized the need for an authoritative scripture interpreter.)

“The Watchtower doesn’t have everything wrong.” No, the WT doesn’t have everything wrong. What it doesn’t have wrong is those aspects of Tradition which it has not rejected. There is much truth mixed in with its errors. Which makes it all the more invidious.

 

[Fidei]

WTBTS cause more death to it’s members than any [other] religion in the world.

Their highlight, the main faults in the part of the JW’s, are their unjust and cruel disfellowshipping their members which often result to mental illness, isolation, depression and reaching as severe as suicide.

also with their Blood transfusion thingy. Before, they denied whole blood transfusion (hundreds die). Because of lawsuits, they are forced to accept [parts] of blood (many lives in this “new light”) but never apologized to those who have already died in their “old light” ages.

 

[Vasian]

Try reading Ray Franz’ book about how the governing body worked and you will see what we are talking about. Franz’ is more than qualified as well, as he was ONE of the members of the governing body and his conscience could not allow himself any longer to be part of it, hence the name of his book.

An excellent book by a man who was on the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society.
“Crisis of Conscience” , by Ray Franz. The struggle between loyalty to God and loyalty to one’s religion
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4145ERFMASL.SL500_AA240.jpg

 

[T_More]

“This denomination.” Of course JW’s do not at all characterize themselves as a “denomination.” They are the true church and everybody else are apostates and goats. (Kind of like a miniature Catholic Church.) Oops, JW’s don’t call themselves a church either.

“Show from the Bible why they are wrong.” Some evangelical outreaches to JW’s even recommend not using the Bible at all! But when talking to a JW to show how the Watchtower has failed in its prophecies and how its teachings have changed. Because, after all, JW’s accept the WT teachings because they believe the Watchtower is “God’s channel of communication to mankind.” (Yes, there is a strong parallel to the Catholic Church, in fact, in my opinion, the Mormon church and the Watchtower were set up by Protestants who realized the need for an authoritative scripture interpreter.)

“The Watchtower doesn’t have everything wrong.” No, the WT doesn’t have everything wrong. What it doesn’t have wrong is those aspects of Tradition which it has not rejected. There is much truth mixed in with its errors. Which makes it all the more invidious.

Some excellent observations. The WTS has indeed created to some degree a caricature of the CC, and they don’t even know it. Arch-Bishops=District Overseers, Bishops=Circuit Overseers, Prebysters=Elders, Deacons=Ministerial Servants. Also, a centralized authority, ie, Brooklyn, NY is an attempt to emulate the Vatican, etc.

 

[Vasian]

During the same time that JW’s in Malawi were being told by the Governing Body not to buy a political card, in Mexico the JW’s were paying bribes to government officials.
Read here:
Neutrality Issues

According to the teaching, Jehovah’s Witnesses are supposed to be politically neutral. Involved in maintaining Christian neutrality is refusing to run for or hold political office, not joining a political party or engaging in patriotic activities such as saluting or pledging allegiance to the flag.

Very similar to and akin to political neutrality is the view that Jehovah’s Witnesses hold towards serving in the military. Serving in activities of warfare were until very recently seen as a violation of the basic law of love that a Christian should exercise as well as subjugation to a political king against the greater laws of God.

Finally, the accepting or payment of bribes is considered to be unchristian conduct and to be shunned.

These matters, until perhaps very recently, were not considered to be “matters of personal conscience” whereby the individual Witnesses could choose for themselves whether they would engage in such activities. These matters were viewed strictly as violations of Christian neutrality and sins.

Malawi Political Card (1960s - 1980s)

In modern times, the Christian body, known world wide as Jehovah’s Witnesses, has experienced from the “wild beast” the same things as first-century Christians. Take the African country of Malawi, for example. There, all citizens have been required to become members of the country’s only existing political party, the “Malawi Congress Party.” A membership card costing about twenty-five cents (U.S.) identifies the bearer as acquiescing to the principles of the ruling political party,’ especially to the Life President, Dr. H. Kamuzu Banda. How are the people of Malawi to view the purchase of a “Party Card”? An official circular issued on August 27, 1975, says: “This is the one way in which we people of this country can show appreciation to our Life Leader, the Ngwazi [Dr. Banda] for developing this country of Malawi.” Accordingly, refusal to buy a “Party Card” is viewed as a lack of appreciation-an act of disloyalty to Life President Dr. Banda. The fact that the person refusing to buy a “Party Card” is a law-abiding citizen who truly loves his fellowmen is not taken into consideration. In the eyes of the Malawi government, the individual is a criminal, not deserving of any legal protection.

As a result, men and women who, for conscience’ sake, refused to buy “Party Cards” have suffered terrible persecution. Many have had their homes burned and their belongings seized. They have been severely beaten, often to the point of unconsciousness. Shocking indignities have been perpetrated against them, including sexual abuses. Some have been killed. Thousands have been herded into concentration camps. Infants have been taken from their mothers and later some of these have died because of not being given proper attention.

Many persons would probably say that it would surely be better just to buy the “Party Card” and thus avoid trouble. Jehovah’s Christian witnesses, of course, do not expect all people to understand their position nor are they interested in forcing their conscientious objections on others. In that respect, all they desire is to be allowed to live morally clean lives, to be able to demonstrate, by word and action, depth of concern for their fellowmen, and to have the freedom to give God exclusive devotion.** (Excerpt from Watchtower 1976 10/15 p. 632-636)**

Beginning in 1964, Jehovah’s Witnesses in Malawi began to experience intense persecution of such heinous scope and nature that one today might compare it to the outbreaks of genocide in Rwanda and other African nations that have occurred more recently. Many Jehovah’s Witnesses were beaten, raped and killed simply because, following the direction of the Society, they refused to purchase the “Party Card” that would indicate that they supported the ruling government.

If this was the end of the story, it might be a fine testament to their resolve, whether misguided or not, to maintain their Christian neutrality and integrity.
**
Mexico Military Service Card (1960s - 1980s)**

In Mexico, men who underwent military training for one year were eligible to obtain a Military Service Card (“Identity Cartilla for Military Service”). Persons who held the card were obligated to report for military duty in the event of war or other activation by the national government in the first reserve. (This is similar to the “National Guard” in the U.S.). Although it was not absolutely necessary to undergo the training and obtain the military service card, the card was sometimes required by employers and necessary to obtain a passport. (There was actually a special waiver to obtain a passport without having the cartilla that could be applied for.)

The situation in Mexico was that many persons simply paid a bribe to the local officials to log false entries in the service training records and ultimately paid another bribe to the officials to obtain the card itself. * According to the Mexican Branch Office, it was a common practice among Jehovah’s Witnesses to follow suit and pay such bribes and to hold such cards without either undergoing the training and without any intention of actually serving in the military. *

In a letter dated February 4, 1960 from the Mexican Branch Office to the Bethel headquarters, the issue was squarely presented to the Society with a request for direction on the matter. *The reply letter dated June 2, 1960, from the Society to the Mexican brothers unequivocally stated that the payment of such bribes in order to obtain the card and the holding of such cards was up to the “individual’s personal conscience.” *The reply letter contained the provisos that should the brothers actually be called for military service that they would have to decide whether to remain neutral or not and also that if such conduct got them into “any difficulties” (i.e. legal trouble) that the Society could not “offer them any assistance.”

Nine years later, in a letter dated August 27, 1969, the Mexican Branch Office again wrote the Society at Bethel inquiring whether the position outlined in its June 2, 1960 letter was unchanged given the fact that the brothers holding the cartilla would be in the “first reserve” of those called up.

In the reply letter dated September 5, 1969, the Society confirmed its earlier position with respect to allowing the Mexican brothers to obtain a military service card (without taking up arms, i.e. by paying the bribes) if their individual conscience so permitted.

---

The double standards shown in the lenient treatment of the Mexican witnesses in informing them that the decision of obtaining a non-essential military service card was a matter for their own consciences contrasted with the strict stance for the Malawi Witnesses that obtaining the political “Party Card,” even though it meant escaping vicious persecution, would be a violation of their Christian neutrality is readily apparent and sickening.

To date, no official explanation or apology for the double-standard has been made by the Society to the Malawi brothers or the worldwide association.

 

[Protestant101]

That is a terrible attempt at a parallel analogy.
The primary issue is that JW’s live under compulsion of being disfellowshipped for not complying, i.e. getting kicked out, of “God’s only true organization on earth today”. This brings with it all sorts of very serious implications.
The legalistic, and very heavy handed Laws keep people under the power of compulsion.
I know it first hand as I lived it and as an Elder I enforced it.

Yes? How?
I would say that most who jump on the bandwagon in threads like this don’t even really have an understanding about what Jehovah’s Witnesses really believe because they don’t take the time to know.
Again… I know it first hand as I lived it, and as an Elder I enforced it.

Yes, you are correct.
Except JW’s are guided by men who rule on a basis of legalism, enforced by a strict law-code, a law code so strict and enforced by the threat of heresy that it lead many to be raped, murdered and executed over a political card.

Once again I direct YOUR attention to your own religion’s statement…

“The first step of apostasy is to get up a creed, telling us what we shall believe. The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship. The third is to try members by that creed. The fourth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed. And fifth, to commence persecution against such.”

“Doings of the Battle Creek Conference, Oct. 5 & 6, 1861” (DJVU). Review and Herald 18 (19): 148. 1861-10-08. adventistarchives.org/doc…-19/index.djvu. Retrieved 2006-11-06.

Just as you do with Jehovah’s Witnesses; here you also take an Adventist statement and lift it out of context to make it look like we teach this is what we must do. Yet, if you would do your homework and look into this; that quote is denouncing and describing what some people do.

The real point here; if one can sift through all your distractions and falsehoods is that the JWs did not cause their murderers or persecutors to do anything. Those people who attacked, and who do attack JWs make their own decision to do these heinous deeds. The people they do it to don’t cause it.

 

[Vasian]

Just as you do with Jehovah’s Witnesses; here you also take an Adventist statement and lift it out of context to make it look like we teach this is what we must do.

You see now… Your statement above and herein verifies what I assumed about you. You are very presumptuous. read on why I know this…

Yet, if you would do your homework and look into this; that quote is denouncing and describing what some people do.

Exactly and I agree! That is why I posted it for you to read. Your own religion condemns (and rightly so) in very strong words that, what the WTS Governing Body practices.

The real point here; if one can sift through all your distractions and falsehoods is that the JWs did not cause their murderers or persecutors to do anything. Those people who attacked, and who do attack JWs make their own decision to do these heinous deeds. The people they do it to don’t cause it.

Again… Nobody stated it was the fault of those that were the victims.
You want to argue a very narrow point of which there is no argument.
The issue herein is about legalism and enforcement under threat and fear of losing one’s standing before God as dictated by the GV of the WTS.
THAT, is the issue.

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101, there are people on this thread that were inside this religion, so I think we are more than qualified on commenting on the WTS’ inner workings. Try reading Ray Franz’ book about how the governing body worked and you will see what we are talking about. Franz’ is more than qualified as well, as he was ONE of the members of the governing body and his conscience could not allow himself any longer to be part of it, hence the name of his book.

I have personally known AND studied with JWs for 25 years. I do not speak as a novice. But you are definitely missing the point here.

 

[Protestant101]

You see now… Your statement above and herein verifies what I assumed about you. You are very presumptuous. read on why I know this…

Exactly and I agree! That is why I posted it for you to read. Your own religion condemns (and rightly so) in very strong words that, what the WTS Governing Body practices.

Again… Nobody stated it was the fault of those that were the victims.
You want to argue a very narrow point of which there is no argument.
The issue herein is about legalism and enforcement under threat and fear of losing one’s standing before God as dictated by the GV of the WTS.
THAT, is the issue.

You can’t deal properly with my religion, nor with the jehovah’s Witnesses. You have made that abundantly clear.

The quote you used “from my religion” has nothing to do with jehovah’s Witness beliefs or practices.

The quotes given here about JWs prove nothing about them being at fault for being persecuted or murdered. That has indeed been a major point of several on this thread. So if you think I am “narrow” then I guess you are also calling the Catholics on this thread “narrow” who brought up this ludicrous idea in the first place.

There is nothing inherently “wrong” with a religion studying, and being willing to change their mind on something they previously believed. Catholics do it all the time; so does every other major religion. It’s called Growing In Grace. (see 2 Pet 3:18)

 

[Vasian]

I have personally known AND studied with JWs for 25 years.

Still cannot make up your mind?

I do not speak as a novice.

Sure, you do:thumbsup:

But you are definitely missing the point here.

What is the “point” that is being missed?

 

[Ahimsa]

One would think that other Christians would celebrate the fact that JWs are now allowed to follow their conscience on this issue of voting.

 

[Vasian]

You can’t deal properly with my religion, nor with the jehovah’s Witnesses. You have made that abundantly clear.

“deal properly…”??

The quote you used “from my religion” has nothing to do with jehovah’s Witness beliefs or practices.

Really? Read it again and explain to me how it does not apply to the Governing body of the WTS.

The quotes given here about JWs prove nothing about them being at fault for being persecuted or murdered. That has indeed been a major point of several on this thread. So if you think I am “narrow” then I guess you are also calling the Catholics on this thread “narrow” who brought up this ludicrous idea in the first place.

You “narrowed” in on the one things that seemed to provide you a basis for disagreement yet you avoid the crux of the issue.

There is nothing inherently “wrong” with a religion studying, and being willing to change their mind on something they previously believed. Catholics do it all the time; so does every other major religion. It’s called Growing In Grace. (see 2 Pet 3:18)

You are correct. there is nothing wrong with change for the good. THAT was, and IS NOT the issue either.
Now, focuse here and set aside your need to defend.
The issue is simple. The WTS governing body has not right to make laws as it were as to what is and what is not right for a Christian when such laws are not clear statements Laws that are enforced by the threat of being kicked out as a heretic, to lose one’s family, and to lose one’s standing before God.
THAT is the issue at hand!

 

[Melissa]

The real point here; if one can sift through all your distractions and falsehoods is that the JWs did not cause their murderers or persecutors to do anything. Those people who attacked, and who do attack JWs make their own decision to do these heinous deeds. The people they do it to don’t cause it.

No, the real point is that if the modern “it’s a matter of personal conscience” perspective re: voting had applied in the 1960s in Malawi, some of those people who suffered and died might have instead found it acceptable according to their personal conscience to have purchased the card. Some might not have … we don’t know.

No one is blaming the actual victims of the murders and other crimes for following the strictures of their religion. The blame, of course, does belong to the actual perpetrators–but also to those people who sat in their comfortable American offices (and who face no real persecution of any sort for not voting) and told others that they HAD to accept such persecution … Well, it’s easy enough to tell someone else to die for your principles as long as you yourself come to no harm.