Water Baptism NOT Necessary for Salvation!

[MariaG]

Baptismal regeneration is not a Biblical concept. Baptism does not save from sin, but from a bad conscience. Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (cf. Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). To make the source of salvation perfectly clear, Peter added, “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (cf. 1 Peter 1:3). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Hopes this helps:thumbsup:

Respectfully, Catholics and many, many Protestants disagree with this and find regenerational baptism completely scriptural as well as completely historical. While you may be able to find scripture to fit your theology, historically, this position of believers baptism has always been condemned from the beginning of Christianity.

Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic

Early Teachings on Infant Baptism

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
I knew you guys wouldnt agree but I figured I would put it out there so you would see where we(people who believe this way) are coming from.

 

[japhy]

And yet in scripture we see that a dove, usually a symbol used for the Holy Spirit, descended upon Jesus and a voice from heaven said this is my son with whom I am well pleased.

But the baptism Jesus received from John was not the baptism other people received from John; or rather, its effect was not the same because it was Jesus. The baptism for Jesus was analagous to the anointing of David, I think, and this is impressed further by the appearance of the Holy Spirit descending upon him. It was the start of his Messianic activity, just as the anointing of David was the start of his Messianic activity.

 

[japhy]

(This is my 100th post. Where’s my cookie?)

But scripture makes it clear that the Baptism of John was for repentance, and that it did not impart the Holy Spirit. The baptism of Jesus must then somehow be different than that of John.

Acts 8:14-17 demonstrates that baptism and the conferral of the Holy Spirit were not necessarily the same act:

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Another excerpt shows that, in an exceptional circumstance, the Holy Spirit can come upon those not yet baptized (but that does not discredit the necessity of baptism):

While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. (Acts 10:44-48)

 

[Nazianzen]

Baptismal regeneration is not a Biblical concept. Baptism does not save from sin, but from a bad conscience. Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (cf. Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). To make the source of salvation perfectly clear, Peter added, “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (cf. 1 Peter 1:3). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Hopes this helps:thumbsup:

1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” (RSV)

First, what Peter “clearly taught” is that baptism saves us by giving us a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (in other words, baptism is empowered by Christ). The verse isn’t setting up this paradigm (as you seem to suggest) that a person is saved “through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” and then saved from a clear conscience. It is evident in this verse that Peter believes that having a “clear conscience” and “being saved” are one and the same thing. Nothing complicated here (and so much for forensic justification).

Second, if you look at the verse in context, Peter is setting up a parallel between the Flood (in which, as Peter says, eight people were “saved through water”). Notice that what they were being saved from is death, not a bad conscience.

I wonder why we should bother with a “clear conscience” if we are saved without having one. Indeed, what is the *meaning *of a “clear conscience” apart from salvation?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” (RSV)

Question: "Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

Answer: As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use 1 Peter 3:21 as a “proof text,” because it states “baptism now saves you.” Was Peter really saying that the act of being baptized is what saves us? If he were, he would be contradicting many other passages of Scripture that clearly show people being saved (as evidenced by their receiving the Holy Spirit) prior to being baptized or without being baptized at all (like the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43). A good example of someone who was saved before being baptized is Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. We know that they were saved before being baptized because they had received the Holy Spirit, which is the evidence of salvation (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24). The evidence of their salvation was the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized. Countless passages of Scripture clearly teach that salvation comes when one believes in the gospel, at which time he or she is sealed “in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13).

Fortunately, though, we don’t have to guess at what Peter means in this verse because he clarifies that for us with the phrase “not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation, it is not the act of being baptized that he is referring to (not the removal of dirt from the flesh). Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting-wet part that saves but is the “appeal to God for a clean conscience” which is signified by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.

An excellent explanation of this passage is given by Dr. Kenneth Wuest, author of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament. “Water baptism is clearly in the apostle’s mind, not the baptism by the Holy Spirit, for he speaks of the waters of the flood as saving the inmates of the ark, and in this verse, of baptism saving believers. But he says that it saves them only as a counterpart. That is, water baptism is the counterpart of the reality, salvation. It can only save as a counterpart, not actually. The Old Testament sacrifices were counterparts of the reality, the Lord Jesus. They did not actually save the believer, only in type. It is not argued here that these sacrifices are analogous to Christian water baptism. The author is merely using them as an illustration of the use of the word ‘counterpart.’

the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).

continued

 

[ALLFORHIM]

“So water baptism only saves the believer in type. The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering. That offering was only his outward testimony that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God of whom these sacrifices were a type…Water baptism is the outward testimony of the believer’s inward faith. The person is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus. Water baptism is the visible testimony to his faith and the salvation he was given in answer to that faith. Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, ‘not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.’ Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God,” and he explains how this is accomplished, namely, ‘by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,’ in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.”

Part of the confusion on this passage comes from the fact that in many ways the purpose of baptism as a public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and identification with Him has been replaced by “making a decision for Christ” or “praying a sinner’s prayer.” Baptism has been relegated to something that is done later. Yet to Peter or any of the first-century Christians, the idea that a person would confess Christ as his Savior and not be baptized as soon as possible would have been unheard of. Therefore, it is not surprising that Peter would see baptism as almost synonymous with salvation. Yet Peter makes it clear in this verse that it is not the ritual itself that saves, but the fact that we are united with Christ in His resurrection through faith, “the pledge of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).

Therefore, the baptism that Peter says saves us is the one that is preceded by faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ that justifies the unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:25-26; 4:5). Baptism is the outward sign of what God has done “by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).

 

[Nazianzen]

"So water baptism only saves the believer in type . . . Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, ‘not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.’ Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul.

Although I agree that salvation is possible without a baptism of water, I could not disagree with the above statements more.

First, it is you who added the statement “nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul.” Peter didn’t say this, nor does the verse in question imply it.

Let’s break the verse down. “. . . not as a removal of dirt from the body” We both agree that the function of baptism is not to remove the “filth of the flesh.” " . . . but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience." Here, Peter isn’t saying “the removal of dirt doesn’t save you; the appeal to God for a clear conscience saves you.” Rather, he is saying, “Baptism doesn’t wash dirt from your body; it appeals to God for a clear conscience.” Or, to put it another way, “Baptism doesn’t save you this way (washing dirt); rather, it saves you THIS way (appeal for a clear conscience) through THIS power (the resurrection).”

The earliest Christians clearly understood baptism in this way. For example, Barnabus wrote: “We indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement. However, we come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear and the trust in Jesus in our spirit.”

“The seal, then, is the water. They descend into the water dead, and the arise alive.” The Shepherd of Hermas

“We who have approached God through Him have received, not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism by God’s mercy, since we were sinners.” Justin Martyr

None of us here denies that salvation is possible without baptism. But Christ established normative means of chanelling his grace, and in His great mercy provides it when those means are absent.

And (not to stray too far from the subject at hand ) as for your statement that “any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation,” you have Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 18:23-35, Luke 14:26, all of Matthew 25, and Romans 8:17 to reckon with.

 

[MariaG]

But the baptism Jesus received from John was not the baptism other people received from John; or rather, its effect was not the same because it was Jesus. The baptism for Jesus was analagous to the anointing of David, I think, and this is impressed further by the appearance of the Holy Spirit descending upon him. It was the start of his Messianic activity, just as the anointing of David was the start of his Messianic activity.

Clearly. We are taught that John is only baptizing with water but the time will come when Christ will baptize with water and spirit. This is a prefigurement of what Christians could expect from our Risen Lord.

And as seen in the post above, the early Christians clearly understood baptism to be a regenerative work of GOD not a work of men and certainly not only symbolic.

 

[believers]

Can you please show me where this baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs in scripture?

Also, please explain to me why Jesus was baptised, and why he commanded converts to be baptized (with water). Thanks in advance.

First you’ll have to answer this question. Are all catholics properly water baptized saved?

God said “baptism NOW SAVES”

 

[guanophore]

Hi,
I knew you guys wouldnt agree but I figured I would put it out there so you would see where we(people who believe this way) are coming from.

“…He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” Titus 3:5-8

Baptism is a washing of regeneration. During this sacrament, we are washed clean of sins, regenerated, and renewed by the HS. His grace justifies us, and we become heirs.

 

[Church_Militant]

:blushing: A double clap from Church Militant:blushing: Now you have me blushing.

God Bless

 

[Odell]

Hi,
“Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Sorda like
(1 Cor 12:13) “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” Jesus body. Baptism is how we become members of Jesus body. Not by one act of faith. And what is Jesus body? The Church. Baptism is how we become members of the new covenant.

 

[guanophore]

First you’ll have to answer this question. Are all catholics properly water baptized saved?

God said “baptism NOW SAVES”

Yes, and No. Don’t ya hate that? A baptized person is clean before God, and if they died that minute, would have no stain of sin. A baptized person has also been justified, transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. However, Jesus expects that His disciples will “obey all that I have commanded”, so to the extent to which a baptized person fails to do so, such a one has been separated from that t state of grace by sin. Your turn!

 

[believers]

Yes, and No. Don’t ya hate that? A baptized person is clean before God, and if they died that minute, would have no stain of sin. A baptized person has also been justified, transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. However, Jesus expects that His disciples will “obey all that I have commanded”, so to the extent to which a baptized person fails to do so, such a one has been separated from that t state of grace by sin. Your turn!

My dear all powerful and all knowing God… I know you said “baptism now saves” but you’re wrong. What you should have said is that when a baby is baptized by the Roman Catholic church properly, and if the baby dies immediately after baptism, then you’re saved. You’re all powerful and all knowing and you emphatically said “baptism now saves” but it has to be a conditional baptism where people are saved by baptism sometimes. So let’s rewrite that and say “baptism now saves but only sometimes or partially”. Sorry God, don’t you hate that?

 

[believers]

Although I agree that salvation is possible without a baptism of water,

How can you believe that? You’re Catholic and that means you have to believe what your religion teaches. You’re not given the liberty to believe something else. If you don’t believe the Roman Catholic church then you’re not Catholic.

Taken directly from the RCC catechism.

Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and **the door **with gives access to the other sacraments. “through water baptism are you freed from sin and reborn as sons of God”; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission.

 

[MariaG]

My dear all powerful and all knowing God… I know you said “baptism now saves” but you’re wrong. What you should have said is that when a baby is baptized by the Roman Catholic church properly, and if the baby dies immediately after baptism, then you’re saved. You’re all powerful and all knowing and you emphatically said “baptism now saves” but it has to be a conditional baptism where people are saved by baptism sometimes. So let’s rewrite that and say “baptism now saves but only sometimes or partially”. Sorry God, don’t you hate that?

Man always has free will and can willingly choose to walk away from God at anytime, even after being saved at one time.

Limitation is not on God or His power but God’s respect and desire for love freely given.

Baptism always saves, because it is by the power of God and not the work of a man. And man can always walk away from that salvation at anytime because of God’s gift of free will.

 

[Holly3278]

Water baptism is necessary for salvation. See this:

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-I

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-II

 

[believers]

Man always has free will and can willingly choose to walk away from God at anytime, even after being saved at one time.

Limitation is not on God or His power but God’s respect and desire for love freely given.

Baptism always saves, because it is by the power of God and not the work of a man. And man can always walk away from that salvation at anytime because of God’s gift of free will.

You said “Baptism always saves” OK then, please tell me what percentage of the one true church is actually saved by water baptism.

 

[believers]

Water baptism is necessary for salvation. See this:

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-I

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-II

You’ve obviously been water baptized. Are you saved?