Water Baptism NOT Necessary for Salvation!

[Gamera]

Here’s what Paul said, the masterbuilder of the Christian faith,…

1Cr 1:17** For Christ sent me not to baptize**, but to preach the gospel

So? Christ didn’t send me to personally baptize anybody, either. What does that have to do with anything? Jesus commanded His clergy in general to baptize, Matt. 28:19.

 

[believers]

Yes, it’s “profitable” for those purposes. Agreed. Nowhere does it say “Use ONLY Scripture.”

And I don’t “hate reproof.” You haven’t given any “reproof,” and you cannot give any reproof, because nowhere does Scripture say, “Use only Scripture.” In contrast, I can easily give reproof to debunk that false notion:

“We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers,” 1 Thes. 2:13.

“Therefore brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle,” 2 Thes. 2:15.

Nowhere does it say to reproof with tradition.

 

[believers]

Here’s what Paul said, the masterbuilder of the Christian faith,…

1Cr 1:17** For Christ sent me not to baptize**, but to preach the gospel

So? Christ didn’t send me to personally baptize anybody, either. What does that have to do with anything? Jesus commanded His clergy in general to baptize, Matt. 28:19.

You need to read your bible. Then you’d understand that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. The Christian church was called out of the gentiles.

 

[Gamera]

You need to read your bible. Then you’d understand that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. The Christian church was called out of the gentiles.

LOL! My wife and I read one chapter of the Bible together every single night. I have read the entire Bible multiple times through.

 

[believers]

Notice he does not say “Baptism only for adults and don’t use water.”

That’s because you haven’t read the rest of your bible. Believe and repent that’s the only way. Babies can do neither.

 

[Gamera]

That’s because you haven’t read the rest of your bible.

I have read the entire Bible repeatedly, and I read it daily. Nowhere does it say “baptism only for adults.” And Jesus expressly said we must be born again “of WATER and spirit,” John 3:5

 

[Gamera]

That’s because you haven’t read the rest of your bible. Believe and repent that’s the only way. Babies can do neither.

We crossed posts – sort of — you were editing this one as I replied.

You think that a baby who dies is doomed to hell? Niiiiice. Well, I disagree. Jesus said not to stop the little children from coming to Him. How are they supposed to do that under your system? They can’t. Praise God, he allows babies to be baptized — just as, under the Old Covenant, He allowed babies to be circumcized and thereby join His chosen people even though they were too young to have faith of their own.

 

[believers]

I have read the entire Bible repeatedly, and I read it daily. Nowhere does it say “baptism only for adults.” And Jesus expressly said we must be born again “of WATER and spirit,” John 3:5

Yes, it does. But you claim that water baptism performs this and it does not. You must believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and repent.

Here’s a question for you then…

If a baby is water baptized and never sins… is this person saved?

 

[believers]

We crossed posts – sort of — you were editing this one as I replied.

You think that a baby who dies is doomed to hell? Niiiiice. Well, I disagree. Jesus said not to stop the little children from coming to Him. How are they supposed to do that under your system? They can’t. Praise God, he allows babies to be baptized — just as, under the Old Covenant, He allowed babies to be circumcized and thereby join His chosen people even though they were too young to have faith of their own.

No, I don’t believe babies go to hell. The old testament mentions an age of accountability. I think it was 20 in the Old Testament.

Again, here’s my question…

If a baby is water baptized and never sins… is this person saved?

 

[Gamera]

Yes, it does. But you claim that water baptism performs this and it does not. You must believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and repent.

Here’s a question for you then…

If a baby is water baptized and never sins… is this person saved?

“Saved” is where the problem lies, because “saved” means something different to you than it does to me.

A valid baptism confers grace (God’s friendship or fellowship) upon the person.

That grace — the state of being in good standing with God — will not go away unless the person voluntarily removes it by sinning. So yes, a baptized person who grew up and never sinned would not “lose” their grace. However, that would be a rare situation.

Most people do sin, and therefore lose their state of grace. They can regain it by repenting – by asking Jesus to forgive their sins. Should a person fail to do so, and remain unrepentant until death, then they will not enter heaven — they lost the grace which they received at baptism, and never got it back.

Thankfully, Jesus paid for our sins on the cross so that we can be forgiven, “seventy times seven,” … and a lot of us need that number!

When a person is baptized as an adult, they must have faith for the baptism to be valid. But a baby cannot have faith. Under your system, a baby never can be “saved” is that right? Since babies are incapable of faith, every baby who dies is doomed to hell?

 

[Gamera]

No, I don’t believe babies go to hell. The old testament mentions an age of accountability. I think it was 20 in the Old Testament.

Again, here’s my question…

If a baby is water baptized and never sins… is this person saved?

Wait, what? You believe that original sin separates humanity from God, right? And babies have original sin, right? Romans 5: 12-19 spells out original sin pretty clearly — we all inherit it. So how can babies enter heaven under your system, since Revelation 21:27 tells us that “nothing unclean shall enter” heaven?

And I did answer your question above – we crossed posts.

 

[believers]

So yes, a baptized person who grew up and never sinned would not “lose” their grace. However, that would be a rare situation.

So in this rare situation… this person can actually appear before the judgement seat of Christ and say that I should be allowed into heaven because I am water baptized and have never sinned.

You do realize that this rare situation is impossible…

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[believers]

Wait, what? You believe that original sin separates humanity from God, right? And babies have original sin, right? Romans 5: 12-19 spells out original sin pretty clearly — we all inherit it. So how can babies enter heaven under your system, since Revelation 21:27 tells us that “nothing unclean shall enter” heaven?

And I did answer your question above – we crossed posts.

The age of accountability means a person is not responsible until they are old enough to be held accountable for their actions. The age could be different from person to person. I don’t remember what age it was in the OT but I do think it was around 20. I believe this to be true in the New Testament as well.

 

[Gamera]

So in this rare situation… this person can actually appear before the judgement seat of Christ and say that I should be allowed into heaven because I am water baptized and have never sinned.

You do realize that this rare situation is impossible…

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Um, YOU do realize that Romans 3:23 does not mean “ALL” men since Jesus was a man who did not sin. You, like many people, are quoting Romans 3:23 out of context. Paul is saying that all, as in both Jew and Gentile, have sinned. Not literally every single human being. Jesus was a human being who never sinned. Look also at John the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Spirit from his very birth (Luke 1:15). It’s hyperbole. It’s like if I say, “everyone knows that,” – it doesn’t literally mean that all 6,543,456,211 people on Earth know it. Read Romans 2:19-20 and 3:21-22 and then read line 23 to understand Paul’s message. “All” have sinned — both those under the Law, and those not under the Law. Then he goes on to ask in verse 29 “Do you suppose that God is the God of the Jews alone? Is he not the God of gentiles also?”

It’s interesting that you quote from Romans Chapter 5, since Chapter 6 expressly says, “By BAPTISM we were buried with him, and lay dead, in order that, as Christ was raised from the dead in the splendor of the Father, so also we might set our feet upon the new path of life.” Rom. 6:3-4.

 

[believers]

Um, YOU do realize that Romans 3:23 does not mean “ALL” men since Jesus was a man who did not sin. You, like many people, are quoting Romans 3:23 out of context. Paul is saying that all, as in both Jew and Gentile, have sinned. Not literally every single human being. Jesus was a human being who never sinned. Look also at John the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Spirit from his very birth (Luke 1:15).

It’s so funny that you quote from Romans Chapter 5, since Chapter 6 expressly says, “By BAPTISM we were buried with him, and lay dead, in order that, as Christ was raised from the dead in the splendor of the Father, so also we might set our feet upon the new path of life.” Rom. 6:3-4.

I find it funny how you do not believe God. You can’t even quote it because you don’t believe it.

You do realize that All means all unless you can prove it otherwise. Jesus was the Christ, God. Jesus was not a creature. He was God.

God never said John the Baptist was sinless. He said he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Just like I am filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gamera]

I did prove otherwise. Let me post it again, since once more we’ve crossed posts:

Read Romans 2:19-20 and 3:21-22 and then read line 23 to understand Paul’s message. “All” have sinned — both those under the Law, and those not under the Law. Then he goes on to ask in verse 29 “Do you suppose that God is the God of the Jews alone? Is he not the God of gentiles also?”

There you go. Do you dispute what Paul is saying is that “all” have sinned, both Jew and gentile?

Jesus indeed is God — and a man. But you claim that “All have sinned” really means “ALL” so under your argument that includes Jesus. Obviously, by definition, “All” here does not literally mean “ALL.” If you agree that Jesus did not sin, then by definition you agree that “all” does not mean literally “ALL.” and therefore is hyperbole.

And I understand how it feels to want to advocate your position, but don’t you dare tell me that I “don’t believe God.” That is hitting below the belt. I believe God. He is my world. He is my life.

 

[Gamera]

You can’t even quote it because you don’t believe it.

Oh – and what the heck does this sentence mean?

 

[believers]

I did prove otherwise. Let me post it again, since once more we’ve crossed posts:

Read Romans 2:19-20 and 3:21-22 and then read line 23 to understand Paul’s message. “All” have sinned — both those under the Law, and those not under the Law. Then he goes on to ask in verse 29 “Do you suppose that God is the God of the Jews alone? Is he not the God of gentiles also?”

There you go. Do you dispute what Paul is saying?

And I understand how it feels to want to advocate your position, but don’t you dare tell me that I “don’t believe God.” That is hitting below the belt. I believe God. He is my world. He is my life.

You haven’t proven anything with these verses. All have sinned means all have sinned.

Rom 2:19
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Rom 2:20
An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Rom 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:29
[Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 

[Gamera]

You haven’t proven anything with these verses. All have sinned means all have sinned.

Including Jesus?

 

[Gamera]

The age of accountability means a person is not responsible until they are old enough to be held accountable for their actions. The age could be different from person to person. I don’t remember what age it was in the OT but I do think it was around 20. I believe this to be true in the New Testament as well.

So wait ---- are you actually saying that original sin does NOT separate humanity from God? Do you agree with Romans Chapter 5 that all of us are born with original sin which separates us from God? So babies who die are separated from God and cannot enter heaven, right? And since you don’t think they can be validly baptized, they’re just totally doomed, right?