Water Baptism NOT Necessary for Salvation!

[guanophore]

clmowry;2104018:

ALLFORHIM;2101289:

Thank you for that explanation. I agree with you about Christ guiding His church–we just have a different definition of the church. But that is a different thread

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=144149&highlight=one+true+church

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=144801

 

[Nazianzen]

Yes I do know this Like you I do have faith that the HS guided the church to what went into the bible. All of this is about FAITH–you either have it and believe all of this to be true Tradition or not or you question everything. That is why I prefer to stick with the bible as my only infallible source. It has given me all I need to date:thumbsup: Still learning:thumbsup: God hasnt ever let me down. I also have faith and trust that He will never let me down.

Yes, if we haven’t got faith then this is all a bunch of intellectual nonsense. You are very blessed in having such faith.

Forgive me my hardheadedness, but I seriously question whether the Bible HAS given you everything you need (Paul says that it is “useful” or “profitable” but not “sufficient” or “complete,” after all). For example, I assume you do not believe in the Real Presence. But imagine for a moment that your interpretation of John 6 and of the Last Supper accounts is wrong. There are many who do (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox alike). Imagine that the Eucharist really is what Catholics say it is (and you can only get it in a Catholic or Orthodox Church). Does the Bible still give you all you need?

Understand that I’m not trying to turn this thread into a debate about the Real Presence. My point has to do with authority.

Consider for a moment that you have very little logical basis for believing that the Bible consists of the particular books that you have in your KJV or NIV or RSV or whichever you use. You therefore lack the power and intimacy of the true Body and Blood of our Lord, the freedom of sacramental Reconciliation, the unimaginable experience of being present at the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ every Sunday in the Mass (not a repetition of his crucifixion, but a vision of the original event). In the end, you lack the assurance that your interpretation of any given Bible verse is right. You can say that the Holy Spirit guides you, but you cannot deny that many other very good Christians have had many varying opinions about the interpretation of certain scripture passages.

I know this is a long way from the subject of water baptism, but I think that this discussion will never have a fruitful or satisfactory conclusion until we all address the issue of authority.

 

[Nazianzen]

Not sure if anybody has brought up this particular verse in the discussion of baptismal regeneration:

“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the Church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALLFORHIM;2104050:

clmowry;2104018:

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=144149&highlight=one+true+church

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=144801

Thanks Guan,
Ive already been down that road and I know the differences and am not interested in going down that road again. But thank you for the links.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I know this is a long way from the subject of water baptism, but I think that this discussion will never have a fruitful or satisfactory conclusion until we all address the issue of authority.

Your right

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Not sure if anybody has brought up this particular verse in the discussion of baptismal regeneration:

“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the Church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

Im curious how you intrepret this passage or should I say how the CC intreprets it

 

[Nazianzen]

Im curious how you intrepret this passage or should I say how the CC intreprets it

“. . . having cleansed her by the washing of water and the word . . .”

Paul here describes Christian baptism, which involves cleansing water and the word (“In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”), by which the washing becomes more than simply the baptism of John.

And what does this washing do? It does not wash “the filth of the flesh,” but it sanctifies the Church and makes it “without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

 

[MariaG]

Wow, lots has been said on this thread. I’ll try to catch up.

That is not what I said. I said He did not walk around like God. Jesus did not use any of His divine powers. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and was guided by Him. However, Jesus could have used His divine powers if He wanted to but chose not to.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

The fact that Jesus did not pray in that way does not translate to that He had no knowledge of what was to come.

So you believe that babies are baptized with the Holy Spirit during water baptism?

Yes.

[1262](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1262.htm’) The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.65

65 Cf. Acts 2:38; Jn 3:5.

[403](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/403.htm’) Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

 

[MariaG]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Hi,

Thank you,
still there is no back up with scripture. I believe this is really a human attempt to appease people and to comfort them. Lets face it sometimes scripture is not comforting but really really hard truths for us humans to understand fully.

Repectfully, look at the footnotes.

You may choose to follow a different interpretation than Catholics (and the early Christians as proven by historical writings), but we disagree with you and completely believe it to be scriptural.

60 Cf. Jn 3:5.
61 Cf. Mt 28:19-20;
62 Cf. Mk 16:16.
64 Mk 10 14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4.

 

[MariaG]

AllForHim,

Or did you only ask for scripture directly relating to baptism by desire?

From Quick Questions from This Rock

The conversion of Cornelius’s household appears to be a case of baptism of desire in Scripture. In this case we know that Cornelius and his household had not yet been water baptized (for after the experience Peter orders that they go on to be water baptized; Acts 10:47–48).

While still in their pre-baptized condition, they hear the gospel from Peter (10:34–43), and as they respond to it the Holy Spirit descends upon them and enables them to speak in tongues (10:44–46). This proves to Peter that they are acceptable to God and do not have to become Jews in order to become Christians.

Since the reception of the Holy Spirit is one of the blessings of salvation and is associated with baptism, it appears that they were placed in a state of grace by their response to the gospel and filled with the Holy Spirit even though they did not yet have water baptism. They thus would seem to be saved by baptism of desire, God allowing them to share in the blessings of salvation that are normally associated with baptism (Acts 2:38) even before the reception of the sacrament. Peter is quick to insist, however, that they go on to receive the sacrament that their desire for Christ has already initiated.

Another possible example of baptism by desire is the thief on the cross. In his case we do not know that he was not baptized (by this time thousands of people in the area had been) and he likely died in the transitional period in history before baptism was mandatory for salvation.

 

[guanophore]

Is it that you fear pondering on what Scripture reveals as to what it means for the believer to "*in Christ*," having been crucified with Him, buried with Him, raised to new (resurrected) life with Him, and now ascended with Him, seated with Him in the heavenly?

No, ritual water baptism does not have the power to do this. It is the Spirit who baptizes the believer into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), and seals him unto the day of redemption (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

“…the washing of water with the word” is not the washing of water AND the word, but “with” the word. The “washing of water” is a reference to “cleansing,” and “with the word” is the means by which one is cleansed, i.e., belief through the preaching of the word of the cross (see 1 Peter 1:18-25, esp. vs. 25).

Sanctifying and cleansing of the Church (made up of all true believers since Pentecost) is the purpose of Christ’s substitutionary, blood sacrifice. He gave Himself, even to death, on the cross that He might sanctify and cleanse His Church/Bride.

“Having cleansed her” is not presented here in Ephesians as a sanctifying “process,” but as the first verb is an aorist in the Greek, Paul is presenting it as a single act and not a continuing experience. His bride was cleansed (“having cleansed her”) by the shedding of His blood. We know from the numerous “shadows” presented in the sacrificial system of Mosaic Law that it is only blood that can cleanse a man of sin. Mere water has no effect.

The whole context is about a bride presenting herself in all her beauty to her bridegroom. She wants to be seen lovely and glorious, not having spot or wrinkle. So the Church is to appear before her heavenly Bridegroom. But the blatant difference here is that she can do NOTHING of herself to make herself beautiful in the eyes of her Lord. Of necessity it is ALL His work (through the cross). He must present it to Himself a glorious Church (vs. 27) - she owes all her glory to HIS WORK. She is made perfect “in Him,” and by Him alone.

If these truths are not made tangible in baptism, then why did Jesus command that we should be baptized?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

AllForHim,

Or did you only ask for scripture directly relating to baptism by desire?

Hi Maria,
Yes I just wanted scripture on baptism by desire. I do believe in baptism. Just wondering where the desire part is scriptural(the way the CC defines it)

Thanks

P.S. Thanks for the info., although I dont see any evidence of baptism by desire that saves. It was their faith in the message that saved them and they were given the HS. After they were saved they /we are suppose to get baptized to announce to the world we accept Christ and set ourselves apart from the world as Christians.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Maria,
Yes I just wanted scripture on baptism by desire. I do believe in baptism. Just wondering where the desire part is scriptural(the way the CC defines it)

Thanks

P.S. Thanks for the info., although I dont see any evidence of baptism by desire that saves. It was their faith in the message that saved them and they were given the HS. After they were saved they /we are suppose to get baptized to announce to the world we accept Christ and set ourselves apart from the world as Christians.

Where is the scripture that tells you that you are supposed to get baptized to announce to the World that you accept Christ? I assert to you that this is a protestant doctrine with no basis in scripture. In fact, scripture teaches many other reasons that we are to be baptized that have nothing to do with that doctrine.

 

[Nazianzen]

“Having cleansed her” is not presented here in Ephesians as a sanctifying “process,” but as the first verb is an aorist in the Greek, Paul is presenting it as a single act and not a continuing experience. His bride was cleansed (“having cleansed her”) by the shedding of His blood. We know from the numerous “shadows” presented in the sacrificial system of Mosaic Law that it is only blood that can cleanse a man of sin. Mere water has no effect.

The whole context is about a bride presenting herself in all her beauty to her bridegroom. She wants to be seen lovely and glorious, not having spot or wrinkle. So the Church is to appear before her heavenly Bridegroom. But the blatant difference here is that she can do NOTHING of herself to make herself beautiful in the eyes of her Lord. Of necessity it is ALL His work (through the cross). He must present it to Himself a glorious Church (vs. 27) - she owes all her glory to HIS WORK. She is made perfect “in Him,” and by Him alone.

First, if you think that any of us believes that “mere water” can cleanse sin, then you have not been listening.

Second, “having been cleansed” refers to when the Bride is presented to the Bridegroom in splendor, which will occur at the end of time. At that point, the Bride will have been completely cleansed. This passage in no way indicates that cleansing is ONLY a one-time event.

Scripture clearly envisions salvation as an ongoing process:

“But we believe that *we shall be saved *through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” (Acts 15:11)

“We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.” (Romans 8:22-24) Notice here that Paul speaks of us WAITING for our adoption as sons, and yet he says that we have already been saved.

“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who *are being saved *it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18).

 

[MariaG]

Hi Maria,
Yes I just wanted scripture on baptism by desire. I do believe in baptism. Just wondering where the desire part is scriptural(the way the CC defines it)

Thanks

P.S. Thanks for the info., although I dont see any evidence of baptism by desire that saves. It was their faith in the message that saved them and they were given the HS.

Respectfully, how is what you are saying any different than what baptism by desire is?

1259 For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Charity is defined in the article link. This is faith, hope and love(charity). This frequently is what many Protestants are referring to when they say faith alone. (The reason Faith alone is wrong under Catholic definitions is faith is intellectual assent alone. One can intellectual accept God without having real repentance. There must be faith, hope, and charity.

From **RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT **by James Akin
Throughout Church history the term “faith” has normally been used to mean “intellectual assent to the teachings of Christ” (hence the infidels are those who do not accept the teachings of Christ—Muslims, Jews, etc.[1]).

After they were saved they /we are suppose to get baptized to announce to the world we accept Christ and set ourselves apart from the world as Christians

Could you please quote the scripture that you interpret to mean that baptism is only for an announcement to the world?

Seems to me that according to your beliefs, people are ONLY baptized by desire since the baptism itself is simply an announcement, instead of the Catholic and sacramental Protestant belief that baptism is actually a work of God.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Respectfully, how is what you are saying any different than what baptism by desire is?

1259 For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Charity is defined in the article link. This is faith, hope and love(charity). This frequently is what many Protestants are referring to when they say faith alone. (The reason Faith alone is wrong under Catholic definitions is faith is intellectual assent alone. One can intellectual accept God without having real repentance. There must be faith, hope, and charity.

Could you please quote the scripture that you interpret to mean that baptism is only for an announcement to the world?

Seems to me that according to your beliefs, people are ONLY baptized by desire since the baptism itself is simply an announcement, instead of the Catholic and sacramental Protestant belief that baptism is actually a work of God.

God Bless,
Maria

Hi Maria,
All I can really say is that countless times in Scripture salvation is said to be “through faith” apart from adding baptism. And ONLY those who professed belief in Christ in the Scriptures were subsequently publicly baptized in water.

In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus tells them to go into the world to preach the gospel to all creation. He says “He who has (first) believed and (second) has been baptized shall be saved.” But in part “b” the disqualified are those who have not believed. If baptism was the door to salvation, then it would be those who have not been baptized that are disqualified. Christ’s words here actually present belief as the door to salvation, not baptism

All throughout the Gospel record of John it’s:

“…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Again I believe all people who confess Jesus as Lord should absolutely be baptized because Christ told us to do so and gave us an example(through His baptism)of how we are to be baptized, but it just doesnt save us. You have to believe and have faith–that is what saves(justifies)then out of love and wanting to be obedient to God you get baptized. Back in the Apostles day when you were publicly baptized it showed the rest of the world that they are now believers and it publicly set them apart. So I totally understand why the Apostles wanted to immediately baptize right along with someone’s confession of faith. They wanted these people to then go out and spread the Good News-which was much more stressed back then then it is now(unfortunately )Christianity was in its infancy afterall, they had to reach the world So I can see how people today merge them together as one when it really is faith first and then baptism and works.

Do you really think that someone can get baptized(without belief)and be saved? Actually Im not sure you guys really do think baptism saves. If baptism saves then why do anything good That is what you say to OSAS believers. So you guys dont really think it saves you(meaning automatically getting into heaven)

This is probably all I can say because any debate from here on out is going to be circular and frankly Im not interested in that.
But I do thank all of you for educating me on the catholic beliefs I would rather learn then debate anyway.

 

[guanophore]

All I can really say is that countless times in Scripture salvation is said to be “through faith” apart from adding baptism.

In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus tells them to go into the world to preach the gospel. He says “He who has (first) believed and (second) has been baptized shall be saved.” But in part “b” the disqualified are those who have not believed. If baptism was the door to salvation, then it would be those who have not been baptized that are disqualified. Christ’s words here actually present belief as the door to salvation, not baptism

Sounds to me like the two go together. As you say, part a, and part b (see previous post about whether commandments of God are “terminated”). The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught, which is that we are made members of His body through baptism, and sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Remember when the crowd was quickened by Peter’s sermon on Pentecost?

" Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said … “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:37-38

He exorts them to repent, and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. The Holy Spirit was understood to be released at baptism, Jesus Himself setting the example by His own baptism.

If the HS came to Jesus at His baptism and He tells us “how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:13 And we ask HIm to send His HS at baptism for us, as it was for Him, do you think He will not?

All throughout the Gospel record of John it’s:

“…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Also in John…“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.” John 14:15-17

We believe, we love him, and we keep His commandment to be baptized, so that He can send us the Spirit of truth.

Again I believe all people who confess Jesus as Lord should absolutely be baptized because Christ told us to do so and gave us an example(through His baptism)of how we are to be baptized, but it just doesnt save us.

At least we agree on something. How do you dispense with this verse? “Baptism…now saves you” 1 Peter 3:21

Back in the Apostles day when you were publicly baptized it showed the rest of the world that they are now believers and it publicly set them apart.

There are a number of baptisms that were not public. Phillip baptized the eunuch when they were travelling down the road and came upon some water. Peter baptized the house of Cornelius after he preached to them. There is no indication that Paul was baptized in any public venue, on the contrary, he was alone fasting for three days.

So I totally understand why the Apostles wanted to immediately baptize right along with someone’s confession of faith. They wanted these people to then go out and spread the Good News-which was much more stressed back then then it is now(unfortunately )Christianity was in its infancy afterall, they had to reach the world So I can see how people today merge them together as one when it really is faith first and then baptism and works.

They should all be merged together, you are right.

Do you really think that someone can get baptized(without belief)and be saved?

nope :tsktsk:

Actually Im not sure you guys really do think baptism saves. If baptism saves then why do anything good That is what you say to OSAS believers. So you guys dont really think it saves you(meaning automatically getting into heaven)

We do not take baptism apart from any other of the teachings of Jesus on salvation. He calls upon us to believe, be baptized, be filled with the spirit, follow the commandments, and quite a few other things. A person must retain the grace they were given at baptism, or it will be lost.

This is probably all I can say because any debate from here on out is going to be circular and frankly Im not interested in that.
But I do thank all of you for educating me on the catholic beliefs I would rather learn then debate anyway.

Glad you are here, then! Hope you are making your way through the library.

 

[MariaG]

Do you really think that someone can get baptized(without belief)and be saved? .

No. We don’t. Either the faith of the adult must be present or the faith of the parents.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

**[1185](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1185.htm’) **The gathering of the People of God begins with Baptism; a church must have a place for the celebration of *Baptism *(baptistry) and for fostering remembrance of the baptismal promises (holy water font).
The renewal of the baptismal life requires penance. A church, then, must lend itself to the expression of repentance and the reception of forgiveness, which requires an appropriate place to receive penitents. A church must also be a space that invites us to the recollection and silent prayer that extend and internalize the great prayer of the Eucharist.

[1226](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1226.htm’) From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family."28

26 Acts 2:38.
27 Cf. Acts 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15.
28 Acts 16:31-33

Every year, we renew our baptismal promises, and reject Satan anew. We believe our children will be saved based on our faith in Christ, until they reach the age of reason and need to renew their promises on their own. Since we believe that baptism is a regenerative gift from God and not just a symbolic declaration, we would be guilty of “keeping the little children from Him” if we denied this gift to infants and children. But repentance and baptism go hand in hand, whether it is a renewal or not.

Actually Im not sure you guys really do think baptism saves. If baptism saves then why do anything good That is what you say to OSAS believers. So you guys dont really think it saves you(meaning automatically getting into heaven)

No, baptism does not automatically guareentee one a ticket to heaven if one is not repentant.

This is probably all I can say because any debate from here on out is going to be circular and frankly Im not interested in that.
But I do thank all of you for educating me on the catholic beliefs I would rather learn then debate anyway

Good. I would rather you learn actual Catholic beliefs than debate also

But I will say again, you really believe in baptism of desire can only apply to those over the age of reason and must have faith and repentance for it to apply, which is, by definition, baptism by desire in the Catholic Church

God bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus tells them to go into the world to preach the gospel to all creation. He says “He who has (first) believed and (second) has been baptized shall be saved.” But in part “b” the disqualified are those who have not believed. If baptism was the door to salvation, then it would be those who have not been baptized that are disqualified. Christ’s words here actually present belief as the door to salvation, not baptism

All throughout the Gospel record of John it’s:

“…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Again I believe all people who confess Jesus as Lord should absolutely be baptized because Christ told us to do so and gave us an example(through His baptism)of how we are to be baptized, but it just doesnt save us.

You quote scripture that shows how important it is for faith to be present. The Catholic Church completely agrees and I think (hope, pray?) that you understand that we do not think baptism is an automatic ticket to heaven without repentance. (Uh oh, I think I need to retract a statement I said earlier about 100% of the time baptism saves. Although it is a work of God and not man, repentance faith must be present. My “100%” claim was based on the assumption of faith and repentance being present. You just can’t separate out the repent and baptize part. They must be present in the person for “you and your household” to be saved.)

But they go hand and hand. The Catholic Church believes that the explanation of baptism being regenerative is the only way scripture remains in harmony (that and we also can show that this is what the Church has always taught, with writings starting less than 100 years after Christ’s death ).

Scripture says baptism saves. I believe God when He said that. The Catholic Church belief that baptism is regenerative is the only way that we can believe in Scripture and not have to explain away anything.

Frankly, I am always amazed because Catholics really take the Bible much more literally than many baptist, fundamentalist and Evangelicals. Baptism saves. We must repent. Keep not the little children from Him. Baptism compared to circumcision but not just of the flesh(not an act of man). All of these aspects are in harmony with the teaching of the Catholic Church AND the Lutheran Church, the Episcopalian, Anglican…

God Bless,
Maria

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You quote scripture that shows how important it is for faith to be present. The Catholic Church completely agrees and I think (hope, pray?) that you understand that we do not think baptism is an automatic ticket to heaven without repentance. (Uh oh, I think I need to retract a statement I said earlier about 100% of the time baptism saves. Although it is a work of God and not man, repentance faith must be present. My “100%” claim was based on the assumption of faith and repentance being present. You just can’t separate out the repent and baptize part. They must be present in the person for “you and your household” to be saved.)

But they go hand and hand. The Catholic Church believes that the explanation of baptism being regenerative is the only way scripture remains in harmony (that and we also can show that this is what the Church has always taught, with writings starting less than 100 years after Christ’s death ).

Scripture says baptism saves. I believe God when He said that. The Catholic Church belief that baptism is regenerative is the only way that we can believe in Scripture and not have to explain away anything.

Frankly, I am always amazed because Catholics really take the Bible much more literally than many baptist, fundamentalist and Evangelicals. Baptism saves. We must repent. Keep not the little children from Him. Baptism compared to circumcision but not just of the flesh(not an act of man). All of these aspects are in harmony with the teaching of the Catholic Church AND the Lutheran Church, the Episcopalian, Anglican…

God Bless,
Maria

Thanks Maria