Water Baptism NOT Necessary for Salvation!

[Gamera]

You wish… yet what does the very son of God tell us in John 3? 5: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

How is CCC 1213 not perfectly in line with the very words of Christ, while your “gospel” is not? You seem to deliberately misconstrue Catholic teaching with some anti-Catholic biased attempts to mislead Catholics away from their faith. In this you are dead wrong, and as I have already shown, are preaching a different gospel from that which Christ and His apostles preached. This is verifiable not only from the New Testament but from the historic writings of the early church as well.

With all that evidence against you, it becomes very clear that you are preaching new winds of doctrines of men.:bible1:

Let’s be fair, though. Believers is just echoing interpretations that he or she has been taught by others. Perhaps Believers has not yet been exposed to Catholic answers to these common fundamentalist claims. It’s easy enough to jump down his/her throat and I’ve probably been guilty of it, but since I just took Believers to task for questioning our faith in Jesus, it’s only fair to point out that Believers probably isn’t deliberately misunderstanding us, but rather is simply overwhelmed that Catholics don’t believe what s/he has been told we believe. It might take time for some of this to sink in.

 

[Church_Militant]

I preach Christ crucified and to you it’s foolishness.

Not so… that is a fallacious allegation.

John Martignoni answers this better than I will.

Q: I had a friend ask me why Catholics have Crucifixes in our churches…don’t we believe Jesus has risen? Why do we keep Him on the cross?

A: First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.

1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. This is why, we “keep Jesus on the cross,” because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God’s power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that?

Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it? You can allege anything that you please, but the more you rant… the more obvious it becomes to all that you are merely spouting anti-Catholic propaganda that is not supported by the facts.

 

[Gamera]

Water baptism confers grace? Can you please tell me where that is in scripture?

I gotta go… but am interested in that one. G’nite.

Titus 3:5-7; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16.

Good night, Believers. I’m right behind you (it’s 1:20 AM here). Let’s talk more later. Until then, may Jesus bless you.

 

[Church_Militant]

Let’s be fair, though. Believers is just echoing interpretations that he or she has been taught by others. Perhaps Believers has not yet been exposed to Catholic answers to these common fundamentalist claims. It’s easy enough to jump down his’her throat and I’ve probably been guilty of it too, but since I just took Believers to task for questioning our faith in Jesus, it’s only fair to point out that Believers probably isn’t deliberately misunderstanding us, but rather is simply overwhelmed that Catholics don’t believe what s/he has been told we believe.

Possibly… but the fact remains that regardless of his sources he’s still misrepresenting Catholic teachings and beliefs and preaching a gospel that is not in line with either the Bible or the 2,000 years of Christian teaching.

My hope and prayer is that at some point he will open his heart to the Holy Spirit and then begin to question his sources.
I leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

 

[believers]

Believers, just because someone doesn’t share your particular take on Scripture doesn’t mean they “don’t beleive the Gospel of Christ.” I am being very patient because you plainly are new at this, but please realize that ALL of us posting here LOVE JESUS with all our hearts. It is hitting below the belt to claim otherwise. Fair enough?

Now then – I’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church cover to cover. All 2865 sections. I’ve also read the Bible cover to cover (have you?). There is no conflict. The Catechism teaches exactly what Scripture teaches: that baptism is a method through which Jesus confers grace upon us. Yes, for the forgiveness of sins, but not “instead of Jesus’ shed blood.” It is ONLY Jesus’ shed blood which washes away our sins. Baptism is a mere method through which that grace is applied to us.

Scripture says that baptism washes away sins, Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5-7; and that baptism is necessary for salvation, John 3:5; Gal. 3:27; 1 Peter 3:20-21.

“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’,” Acts 2:38

“Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name,” Acts 22:16.

“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of the water with the word, that He might present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish,” Ephesians 5:25-27

“…He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life,” Titus 3:5-7

Scripture makes clear that baptism is necessary for salvation.

“Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’,” John 3:5

“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” Gal. 3:27

“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ …” 1 Peter 3:20-21.

I didn’t say you guys don’t believe in the Gospel of Christ. You just don’t have faith in the sufficiency of the work done by Jesus on the cross. 100% Faith in His finished work is what you need for atonement of your sins. Water baptism does not do this. You must be born of water and the spirit.

We are roughly 97% water as newborns. BUT as an adult you must be born again in the spirit which happens when you believe the Gospel and repent, turning to God in Faith in Jesus as a little child.

 

[believers]

Possibly… but the fact remains that regardless of his sources he’s still misrepresenting Catholic teachings and beliefs and preaching a gospel that is not in line with either the Bible or the 2,000 years of Christian teaching.

My hope and prayer is that at some point he will open his heart to the Holy Spirit and then begin to question his sources.
I leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

My source is God’s Word which was written to “whosoever”. It teaches the sufficiency of Jesus’ work on the cross for salvation. Believe and repent.

 

[Church_Militant]

My source is God’s Word which was written to “whosoever”. It teaches the sufficiency of Jesus’ work on the cross for salvation. Believe and repent.

Not quite… as I have shown already, your source is the interpretations and teachings of men, (to which you cling regardless of many examples that they are not in line with the Word of God) and not what the Word of God says, though you see them as one and the same thing.

No Catholic teaching denies the “sufficiency of Jesus’ work on the cross for salvation.”, though you wish it did in order to give validity to your allegations.

As for “Believe and repent.”; Physician heal thyself.

 

[Nazianzen]

I didn’t say you guys don’t believe in the Gospel of Christ. You just don’t have faith in the sufficiency of the work done by Jesus on the cross. 100% Faith in His finished work is what you need for atonement of your sins. Water baptism does not do this. You must be born of water and the spirit.

We are roughly 97% water as newborns. BUT as an adult you must be born again in the spirit which happens when you believe the Gospel and repent, turning to God in Faith in Jesus as a little child.

I really wish you could get your head around the idea that we have absolute faith in Christ’s ability to save us. A mechanic repairs a car. The mechanic uses tools. The tools do not repair the car. The mechanic does. Or, to use a metaphor Christ Himself used, a physician uses tools to heal a person from illness. The tools do not heal. The physician does. But the physician still uses tools. Our belief that Christ uses sacramental tools (all of his own design and creation) to confer grace does not in any way diminish his workmanship. It is all of his doing. He is the only one who can accomplish the work.

And please, please, please, PLEASE tell me you aren’t suggesting that when Christ said we must be born of water, he meant that we’re 97% water as newborns.

Care to address my last on this thread directed at you?

 

[Nazianzen]

While we’re at it, aren’t you arguing that there is no baptism of desire (which is the idea that someone can be baptized in the HS if baptism by water isn’t available by having faith and desiring it)? Since you don’t believe that sacramental baptism is of any avail, how does your conception of baptism differ from the baptism of desire?

BTW - that last sentence in my last post should have read: “Care to address my last few posts on this thread directed at you?”

 

[guanophore]

Baptism doesn’t save. It justifies one before Christ because He commanded it. However, baptism could save you if you are baptized and die before you commit a mortal sin. Salvation is a life-long process beginning with Baptism in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21** Baptism**, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

 

[guanophore]

Water baptism does not save.

Believe in the gospel and repent. Only then can you be baptized with the Holy Spirit. THE baptism that saves.

Matt 28:18-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

So you are saying that the baptism that Jesus taught His disciples to administer, and that demonstrated in the NT does not apply? That the end of the age has occurred, so we no longer need to observe all that Jesus commanded?

 

[guanophore]

Here’s what’s not elementary. Jesus does not become an atonement for your sins UNLESS you have faith in His gospel. You have faith in water baptism which is the baptism of repentance. If you read the OT with the understanding that a blood sacrifice is the only way for atonement… THEN you will understand that the Lamb of God is our atonement and not water baptism.

Clearly you need some more study into what happens during baptism. Through this sacrament we are joined with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. It is in becoming one with Him that our lives are hidden with Christ in God. Yes, the Lamb of God is our atonement, and baptism is how we enter into that Lamb.

Rom 6:1-4
6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

 

[Gamera]

I didn’t say you guys don’t believe in the Gospel of Christ. You just don’t have faith in the sufficiency of the work done by Jesus on the cross. 100% Faith in His finished work is what you need for atonement of your sins. Water baptism does not do this. You must be born of water and the spirit.

100% faith in the finished work of Jesus is the whole point of baptism. It is Christ’s finished work which empowers baptism with the ability to wash away sins. Baptism itself is just a method by which the finished work of Jesus is applied to us. Baptism isn’t some separate cure apart from Jesus’ finished work on the cross. Baptism derives 100% of its effect from Jesus’ finished work on the cross.

We are roughly 97% water as newborns. BUT as an adult you must be born again in the spirit which happens when you believe the Gospel and repent, turning to God in Faith in Jesus as a little child.

We must be born again of water and spirit, John 3:5. Baptism is when we are born again by water and spirit.

 

[Gamera]

…A mechanic repairs a car. The mechanic uses tools. The tools do not repair the car. The mechanic does. Or, to use a metaphor Christ Himself used, a physician uses tools to heal a person from illness. The tools do not heal. The physician does. But the physician still uses tools. Our belief that Christ uses sacramental tools (all of his own design and creation) to confer grace does not in any way diminish his workmanship. It is all of his doing. He is the only one who can accomplish the work.

Very well put. The car isn’t repaired by tools “instead of” by the mechanic. The car is repaired BY the mechanic THROUGH tools. We are cleansed of sin BY Jesus’ blood THROUGH baptism and repentance, not by baptism “instead of” Jesus’ blood. To say that baptism has any power apart from Jesus’ blood is nonsense. Baptism is a tool by which Jesus’ blood cleans us. “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name,” Acts 22:16.

 

[Gamera]

Very well put. The car isn’t repaired by tools “instead of” by the mechanic. The car is repaired BY the mechanic THROUGH tools. We are cleansed of sin BY Jesus’ blood THROUGH baptism.

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t say you guys don’t believe in the Gospel of Christ. You just don’t have faith in the sufficiency of the work done by Jesus on the cross. 100% Faith in His finished work is what you need for atonement of your sins. Water baptism does not do this. You must be born of water and the spirit.

We are roughly 97% water as newborns. BUT as an adult you must be born again in the spirit which happens when you believe the Gospel and repent, turning to God in Faith in Jesus as a little child.

First I would like to comment that it seems mighty presumptuous of you to make a prounouncement about what we believe, where we lack faith or what we “must” do. You don’t know anything abou us, or what our church teaches.

Having said that, I realize that you are ignorant about what the Church teaches, and that is regrettable,but can be corrected.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. "

When we are washed through baptism, we became justified in the name of the Lord. It is His sacrificial death on the cross that justifies. Baptism is the manner in which we enter into this death.

Heb 10:19-22

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

Baptism enables us to approach with confidence into the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus.

Rom 5:1-5
5:1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us."

The HS is given to us in baptism, just as Jesus demonstrated when He gave us an example by His own baptism. He has poured into our hearts His perfect love. Being born again by water and the spirit happens together, at the same time, during baptism.

 

[japhy]

Jesus was not resurrected in the OT

Sir, you have avoided my question about where you find Scriptural support for your notion of an “age of reason”. You also avoided my question about whether children below the “age of reason” are saved, and what happens to them when they reach the “age of reason”.

 

[japhy]

Blameless means sinless?! Not because they were obviously “walking in all the commandments and ordinances”.

And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:6, KJV)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. (Romans 3:10, KJV)

Ruh-roh. See what happens when you take verses out of context?

 

[believers]

Sir, you have avoided my question about where you find Scriptural support for your notion of an “age of reason”. You also avoided my question about whether children below the “age of reason” are saved, and what happens to them when they reach the “age of reason”.

I didn’t avoid your question. You just don’t understand the power of the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus sits on the throne of judgement. He said come to me as little children. What do you think children are?

 

[believers]

And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:6, KJV)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. (Romans 3:10, KJV)

Ruh-roh. See what happens when you take verses out of context?

Hey God, you’ve contradicted yourself. - Member of the Catholic Church.