But you keep telling us “ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Over and over, you’ve said “all means all.” Which is it? If you admit that babies have no personal sin, then you admit that not ALL human beings have committed personal sin.You’re still not getting this. Do you understand that Jesus is the Judge. He is the one that determines who gets into Heaven. As for children, He demonstrated on earth that children are allowed to come to Him. “such is the Kingdom of Heaven”. Jesus will allow them in. He told us that if we want to enter heaven, we have to be like them.
Jhn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You are trying to say babies going to Heaven means they are sinless. They are not without the sin of Adam. However, Jesus paid for that sin on the cross. And, Jesus is the Judge and will let them in. He said “forbid them not, such is the Kingdom of God”But you keep telling us “ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Over and over, you’ve said “all means all.” Which is it? If you admit that babies have no personal sin, then you admit that not ALL human beings have committed personal sin.
Let’s list the places where we agree. Correct me if I have misstated your view.You are trying to say babies going to Heaven means they are sinless. They are not without the sin of Adam. However, Jesus paid for that sin on the cross. And, Jesus is the Judge and will let them in. He said “forbid them not, such is the Kingdom of God”
And yes, all mankind has fallen short because of Adam.
Now, as adults we choose to sin so we must repent and become like little children.
Adam’s sin is inherited by all people.Let’s list the places where we agree. Correct me if I have misstated your view.
We agree:
- Original sin is inherited by all people (eg Rom. Chapter 5)
Yes, Adam’s sin is paid for with Jesus’ blood.
- Nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27)
Here is the fork in the road.
- Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, sin (including original sin) somehow must be cleansed from a person in order for them to enter heaven;
Yes
- Jesus atoned for our sins by His finished work on the cross;
Christ’s atonement is automatically applied to babies and little children.
- This cleansing atonement isn’t automatically applied to everyone; rather, it must be claimed in some way. For an adult this cleasing requires faith and repentance.
Sorry… I gotta run againAre we agreed on all of those propositions?
No problem. We’ll pick it up again another time.Sorry… gotta run. I was in a hurry and couldn’t reply quite the way I wanted so I deleted the post.
Of course not. He didn’t have to. That’s why he sent ministers into the world.It doesn’t empower water baptism. You do realize that Jesus NEVER water baptized.
First (and I think I’ve said this before), nobody here denies that God has the power and does save people without baptism (water baptism, that is).That belief negates God’s Grace. You are telling people that the only way to receive the gift of God is to go thru the Catholic church and by a priest in water baptism. That’s not what His Word says.
You’ve added work to the Grace of God by thinking a man must apply it or distribute it. God doesn’t need your religion or your religious stuff to bless people with His grace. Then it wouldn’t be grace at all. And definitely not a gift. It’s just arrogance to think your church can do this.
To add to your point Nazianzen,Of course not. He didn’t have to. That’s why he sent ministers into the world.
And yet we know that, even though belief is the foundation of it all, there is more involved than mere belief.Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (and those who have not reached the age of accountabilityshould not perish, but have everlasting life.
Guess you aren’t familiar with that critter called the hyperbole. So when Jesus says we should hate our father and mother, he really means we should HATE them, huh? That we really should pluck out our eyes and cut off our hands?Hey God, you’ve contradicted yourself. - Member of the Catholic Church.
You do realize that we in Catholicism have another authority besides the Bible, and that authority tells us that sanctifying grace is conferred in water baptism? You have to understand this if you intend to have a meaningful discussion with anybody. Every one of your interpretations of various Bible verses are just that - your interpretation. In every case, your interpretation has been one of many possible interpretations.It’s just arrogance to think your church can do this.
I’m telling you that you don’t know what you are talking about and that you don’t know the Word of God and that you don’t know what Christians have taught and believed for 2,000 years.Let’s get this straight. I was a cradle Catholic and remained Catholic for 36 years and come from a long line of Catholics. I even attended CCD as a child. I also grew up with Catholics in a state divided into parishes. Please don’t tell me I don’t know Catholicism.
I find myself puzzled about why you would deny the grace of jesus emparted through water baptism. What would be the purpose of such denial?It doesn’t empower water baptism.
On the contrary, I realize the opposite!You do realize that Jesus NEVER water baptized.
I think here you are talking about baptism, and believing that it is sanctifying negates God’s grace? No, it is God’s grace poured out through the HS at baptism that makes it effective.That belief negates God’s Grace.
Actually, the church does not now, nor has ever taught such a preposterous idea.You are telling people that the only way to receive the gift of God is to go thru the Catholic church and by a priest in water baptism. That’s not what His Word says.
Yes, and if we believe in Him, we will acknowledge and follow his authority, by which he commands us to be baptized and observe all that He has commanded.Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
I guess this answers my question above, where I expressed being mystified by your refusal to accept Jesus teaching about baptism. I guess you refuse to accept it because you don’t percieve that it is His command, and you don’t understand that through obedience to His holy commandments, we exprerience His grace. You are right, though, God needs no religion to bless people, or any “stuff”. However, He has called us to obey His teachings, and that, in doing so, we will find eternal life.You’ve added work to the Grace of God by thinking a man must apply it or distribute it. God doesn’t need your religion or your religious stuff to bless people with His grace. Then it wouldn’t be grace at all. And definitely not a gift. It’s just arrogance to think your church can do this.
Let’s get this straight. I was a cradle Catholic and remained Catholic for 36 years and come from a long line of Catholics. I even attended CCD as a child. I also grew up with Catholics in a state divided into parishes. Please don’t tell me I don’t know Catholicism.
Part of the above is the reason.I find myself puzzled about why you would deny the grace of jesus emparted through water baptism. What would be the purpose of such denial?