Way of the Master

[Irenic]

I jokingly call that show “Way of the Ambush.”

Seriously, though, they do have some interesting things on there from time to time. Their segments can be a little sensational, but they have done sit-down interviews with a guy from the Church of Satan, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc. They didn’t use those ambush tactics on them if I remember correctly.

My basic issues with their technique are the smug, triumphalistic way Mr. Comfort sometimes approaches these unsuspecting folks, the implication that if you aren’t a “said-the-sinner’s-prayer-Evangelical” you are not a Christian and the fact that they are trying to get every Joe in the pew to do this kind of thing when everyone isn’t equiped for one-on-one confrontational evagelism. They are also very anti-Sacramental and pretty narrow and unhistorical in their views of what is required to be a Christian and be “saved.”

 

[mastda]

WOW!!! Malachi!! Unbelievable!!! I came on this forum tonight and I am totally surprised at your 4 or 5 responses. I will refrain from commenting right now as doing so will only drag this discussion further into the mud.

Anyway, back to the point. Why did it take you 170 posts to tell us the real reason why you left the Catholic Church. It had nothing to do with doctrinal issues, it was all personal. I sort of sensed it from the begining as all your posts had to deal with the outward actions of Catholics. I truly sympathize with what happened to you and for a priest to tell you sh*t happens is absolutely horrible. Based on your post last night and all these posts today, I think you are dealing with deep down anger and regret. In all fairness if something like this happened to me I would be devasted. You probably are much stronger than me as I would go into hiding and just cry my eyes out. When we returned to the Catholic Church, in 2000 all my evengelical so called friends deserted us so we dont have any close friends. My wife and my boys are the world to me.

You need to let go…my old protestant friend (lets call him Don) stole $86,000 from me and another business partner in 1997. When we went to get it back he claimed personal bancruptcy. He was and probably still is a born again, spirit filled, bible quoting person. He know what he told us when I met up with him a few months later. You guessed it…I Love You, but he never gave the money back. This is why I get suspicious when someone tells me they love me. Didn’t Judas kiss Jesus? I could of been upset at the church but I knew that Don did not represent Christianity, he was one man, a sinner.

Get over it and please stop posting silly posts that make no sense . You really are embarrasing yourself. I have been called many things but never boastful and full of pride. I am the exact opposite in fact the only criticism my superiors at work have of me is that I do not toot my own horn.

This is officially my last post on this forum until Easter Sunday as I said in the Lent Forum, I am giving it up for Lent. I am getting too hooked on them and life was not meant to spend all evening typing into a computer. Goodbye and God Bless.

 

[SemperJase]

mastda:

You need to let go…my old protestant friend (lets call him Don) stole $86,000 from me and another business partner in 1997. When we went to get it back he claimed personal bancruptcy.

When I was going through RCIA, I spoke to the deacon teaching the class of my disappointment in how the evangelical church deserted me when I was going through a difficult time.

The deacon told me that if that was my reason for converting, then I shouldn’t convert. He pointed out there are people in every faith who don’t live up to those expectations. Wow. I wasn’t expecting that. Turned out he was right. There are bad catholics.

From personal experience I know that evangelical’s bibles are every bit as dusty as catholic’s. I go to mass and can tell there are people there who don’t want to be there. Just like I could look at the congregation of my Bible church and see the same looks. That’s when I realized I can’t base my faith on what other people do. If I do, then I’ll change faiths everytime I meet someone who doesn’t live a perfect life. I’ll never be satisfied if I require that Christianity be perfectly demonstrated in another human.

I was ready to go back to my old church. But I made the mistake of comparing catholic beliefs to evangelical beliefs. There were just too many contradictions in sola scriptura. In spite of being uncomfortable with marian devotion (35 years of being taught to reject Mary’s role had its effect) I had to acknowledge the catholic church had the more convincing claim to being the church Christ founded.

 

[Fides]

I just saw a new batch of interviews couple weeks back.
The older man went up to a mid 20’s male and began to interview him. The male went along with the interview, giving off the impression that he might be gay. The older guy (Ray Comfort) did his routine and then mentioned the ideas of homosexuals getting into heaven and asked the male if he had a christian background. The male answered yes, that we was raised in the catholic church. After the couple questions, nutshelling the males answers together, he believes in god, believes he has a place in heaven, believes in the bible, but not all, since '" its proven the catholic churched changed some writings in the past to better fit their beliefs".The interview shortly ended after that comment, im sure with Ray smiling.

I bet everyone involved in the selling of these dvds were happy to air that comment. And I believe the time I saw this episode it was on TLN, and I thought that channel was a celebration of couple diff denominations, yet they didnt stop that particular piece to be aired. I guess its ok to take a jab at the big kid on the block, eh?

Peace be with you all
fides

 

[NonDenom]

Hello Fides, I enjoy this program, so much so I have a link as my signature. Please check it out, as it brings up a nice power point type presentation. Anyway, the gentleman’s name is Ray Comfort. Him and Kirk Cameron have a ministry called “The Way of The Master”. The concept being to preach the Gospel the way the “Master” did, Jesus. Many here might not agree with it.

From a fundamentalist’s point of view, they are not “rabid”. Believe it or not, the “rabid” fundamentalist’s preach to avoid them because they associate with multiple denominations, something against “rabid” fundamentalist’s doctrine of biblical seperation. Anyway, just trying to clarify in the world of “Fundamentalism”, they would not be referred to as “rabid” (I know that was not your comment, but just replying to it).

Ray Comfort also has his own Ministry, “Living Waters” as well.livingwaters.com/

. Too me they are spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the way Jesus did…as an example to us. Catholics will disagree of course because of the huge gap in theology.

Della, they are not judging or anything. They acknowledge all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This includes them. They get people to realize that without accepting Jesus’s sacrafice on the cross as the atonement for their sins, they are “already judged” as per the Bible. Yes, our theologies differ, to the extreme perhaps, but they nor other fundamentals I know, think we are any better…or judge others. We call sin what it is. Lusting is a sin…God says it is a sin. Why not tell people that it is a sin? They should know. Sin displeases God. In fact he uses the word “abomination”, his strongest word for hate…he hates sin.

What they try and get people to see is that “everyone”…thinks they are “good”. Then they acknowledge lieing, stealing, lusting and blaspheming. Are these things evidence of a good person? No, yet we all think were are “good”. We are sinners in need of a savior and that is all they are trying to get accross. They do not ask for money. They do not say, join this church or that church…just to come to Jesus.

I am not trying to attack Catholisim. Thuis is not my thread, I am just repling to it. Instead of “coming home to rome”…perhaps people should “come home to Jesus”. Accept him as Lord and Savior.

Fides, I believe the Holy Spirt has lead you to that program for a reason. Please do not right it off. Pray and keep watching it. If for nothing more than you to make a list of what you disagree with it. Nonetheless, you gave it a fair chance.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond.

Hi malachi_a_serva
All very good points. I think that we are all guilty of this kinda reaction, it is not bad for me to read somethin from a Catholic author just as it is not bad for a Catholic to read something from a Protestsnt author, they may help us in our walk. I know of Ray’s ministries and and he makes some great points. I would suggest to anyone to listen to his tape “Hell’s best kept secrets”.
In Him and Him Only

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

1. **How do you witness to a Roman Catholic? **
   The problem is that he is most likely not born again. It is because of this, that there is contention. I have found that it is often a futile exercise to try and convince a Roman Catholic that the teachings of his church are erroneous. Instead, I open up the Law (the Ten Commandments), then say that if he is not born again he is not a Christian ** (I show him John 3 and say that Jesus said it–in the Catholic Bible). Unless that happens, he is unsaved and cannot enter Heaven ** (and there is no purgatory). I then spread it out by letting him know that if someone is a Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Salvation Army, Catholic or “whatever,” and is not born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. When he is truly converted, the Holy Spirit will lead him into all truth and away from the error of Roman Catholicism.

livingwaters.com/helps/faq.shtml

I don’t know malachi_a_serva this sounds like hes judging Catholics to me. This came from one of his web-sites… Also this is a sickening statement for a fellow christian to make. I was going to give his writings a chance, but all it took was 2 minutes looking at the FAQ section to realize this guy is a :whacky:

No thanks I’ll pass.

 

[Dimmers]

livingwaters.com/helps/faq.shtml

I don’t know malachi_a_serva this sounds like hes judging Catholics to me. This came from one of his web-sites… Also this is a sickening statement for a fellow christian to make. I was going to give his writings a chance, but all it took was 2 minutes looking at the FAQ section to realize this guy is a :whacky:

No thanks I’ll pass.

malachi_a_serva has left the building

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=104846

 

[brosam]

lol
I forgot to include the site, maybe by seeing their faces it will trigger some memory.

Im pretty sure their not catholic. Sometimes I just watch to see if they name a denomination, even though its obvious they probably claim to be ‘non-denom’.

wayofthemaster.com/

Todd, Ray, Kirk, Tony and Tony are from three different denoms: Southern Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Evangelical Free. I’ll let you figure out which is which.

 

[brosam]

These guys are the same people who are assiciated with the “Left Behind” series. Yes I would say definitely not Catholic.

Actually, they’re not. Kirk Cameron (I don’t know if he’s related to “Curtis Cameron” or not) appeared in the Left Behind movie. That’s as far as any association goes.

 

[brosam]

I said busybodies and I meant it. They have no authority to be questioning people about their sins. If they tried that stunt on me, I’d tell them to go mind their own sins! And if that didn’t deter them I’d knock them flat with my purse!

The problem with this is that the tell people before hand exactly what the show is about. If the person agrees, then they can’t really feign offense, since they agreed to it in the first place.

 

[brosam]

Heard Kirk Cameron say one of his check list points it to point out that your not saved by any denomination but only by being born again - naturally though the sinners prayer in a fundamentalist formula

Actually, if you’ve ever heard the show at all, then you should kow that they are very strongly against the “Sinners’ Prayer”.

I have heard testimonies of those in the abortion industry who converted to pro-life christiantiy in every case they converted not because of a checklist of sins via Kirk Cameron but the constant witness of nonviolent peaceful protest out of a love of life.
If they were to be confronted by Kirk Cameron and his friend Ray they would only have stayed in the abortion industry.

Could you please explain how one presents the Gospel without actually preaching the Gospel?

 

[misslollipops]

livingwaters.com/helps/faq.shtml

I don’t know malachi_a_serva this sounds like hes judging Catholics to me. This came from one of his web-sites… Also this is a sickening statement for a fellow christian to make. I was going to give his writings a chance, but all it took was 2 minutes looking at the FAQ section to realize this guy is a :whacky:

No thanks I’ll pass.

Would you say you are born again?
If so how do you know?

 

[misslollipops]

I actually bought the Way of The Master series and did a study of it with all the evangelists in my church.
Very good method of street evangelism.
It actually works.

 

[Atemi]

I’ve been seeing this tv program for about a month now called Way of the Master. Its Curtis Camerson (the oldest son from the show Growing Pains) and some other middle aged guy. They talk about the gospels, repenting, saving other christians, being reborn, false conversions in the church. Then they go in the streets and pull the same routine. Have you ever lied? Have you heard stolen? Have you ever lusted for another in your heart? Then they call the person a lying stealing…cant remember the last part.

Has anyone else seen this? I see it on TLN and acouple other stations that air Benny hinn

god bless

Great program.

Watch it when you can.

…

 

[Wisdom]

Actually, if you’ve ever heard the show at all, then you should kow that they are very strongly against the “Sinners’ Prayer”.

Could you please explain how one presents the Gospel without actually preaching the Gospel?

They are not against the sinners prayer they believe you are born again by confessing Jesus and the sinners prayer is a means to that end they sure the heck don’t believe you are born again by baptism which is the historical position of the historical church for 2000 years. Their contention with the sinners prayer is that unlike some other evangelicals they don’t believe the sinners prayer necessarily guarantees once saved always saved. They say some who say it are truly born again and some are not true converts but they definitely beleive in a formula of prosfessing Christ as one Lords and Savior as the means to being born again whether that be the sinners prayer or similar means they are not in agreement with the historical position of Catholic, Orthodox and Lutherans on Baptism being a regeneration and the born again experience. You fail to include the finer points of the arguement as usual.

You can preach the Gospel as it was presented to Norma McCorvey, how it was presented from Jesus to the woman caught in adultery, how St Francis preached it. You preach it by your actions you preach it without condemnation as Jesus did not condemn the sinner but instead offer her a new path. Read Norman McCovery’s conversion story she thought all Christians were judgemental gotcha your going to hell crowd as presented in the Way of the Master but she met real Christians who actually lived a Christian life a life of witness first and very little words at first, she became friends with these people without playing the Gotcha Romans game. This is the best kind of witness not the quiz machine Christian but a Christian life actually lived. Somehow I think St Francis converted more people to Christianity by his Christian witness than the Way of the Master gothcha quiz show will ever do and that my friend is the real gospel. Not the impersionaltion of the Gospell you seemed to have fallen for by this slick DVD impersonation. As St Paul said who has bewitched you into beleiving this is the Gospel.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I see Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort’s show as a mixed bag.
Their disbelief in the necessity of water baptism (which is really water AND the Holy Spirit, not just water alone, they seem to not be aware of that reality of what water baptism is ) certainly goes against the clear teaching of the early church.

On the other hand, I like the way they present the
Law’s commands as evidence that we are all guilty of sin.
That is very effective for some people. I am not sure it would be an effective means of evangelizing ALL who can be saved,
but it certainly leads some people to see their spiritual need
for Jesus Christ Our Lord, and insofar as that goes, that is
certainly a worthy thing.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[brosam]

I see Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort’s show as a mixed bag.
Their disbelief in the necessity of water baptism (which is really water AND the Holy Spirit, not just water alone, they seem to not be aware of that reality of what water baptism is ) certainly goes against the clear teaching of the early church.

First of all, you’ve got to remember that they’re Christians so they don’t determine doctrine by the “clear teaching of the early church”, but by what the Bible says.

Second, they’re very clear that baptism is a symbolic act by which the believer demonstrates that he is crucified with Christ and raised to new life in Him, so it looks like they understand it pretty well.

 

[brosam]

They are not against the sinners prayer

You’re joking, right? They address it in virtually every show and say that it isn’t Biblical.

they sure the heck don’t believe you are born again by baptism

Of course not. That’s not Biblical. Why would a Christian believe something that isn’t Biblical?

You preach it by your actions

Ah, yes. The old “preach the Gospel at all times, use words if necessary” silliness. That’s about as dumb as saying, “feed starving children. If necessary, use food”.

In the Bible, the model of evangelism is always proclaiming the Gospel, not living some sort of “lifestyle” and hoping that, somehow, the lost will manage to extrapolate the Gospel from that.

you preach it without condemnation as Jesus did not condemn the sinner but instead offer her a new path.

What’s the point of preaching a “new path” to someone who thinks that the path they’re on is just fine?

This is the best kind of witness

It’s also not Biblical.

Not the impersionaltion of the Gospell you seemed to have fallen for by this slick DVD impersonation. As St Paul said who has bewitched you into beleiving this is the Gospel.

OK. Tell me how the Christian Gospel disagrees with the Bible.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

First of all, you’ve got to remember that they’re Christians so they don’t determine doctrine by the “clear teaching of the early church”, but by what the Bible says.

Ah, but for some of us here, the teaching of the early Church helps us understand what the Bible says. It’s not an either/or proposition, it’s both/and.

Second, they’re very clear that baptism is a symbolic act by which the believer demonstrates that he is crucified with Christ and raised to new life in Him, so it looks like they understand it pretty well.

Where does the Bible say that “baptism is a symbolic act by which the believer demonstrates that he is crucified with Christ…?” What verse is that again?

 

[Church_Militant]

First of all, you’ve got to remember that they’re Christians so they don’t determine doctrine by the “clear teaching of the early church”, but by what the Bible says.

Too bad that that doctrine of “the Bible alone” isn’t even taught in the Bible.

Second, they’re very clear that baptism is a symbolic act by which the believer demonstrates that he is crucified with Christ and raised to new life in Him, so it looks like they understand it pretty well.

Again, it’s too bad that that is not a scriptural belief. Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

You’re joking, right? They address it in virtually every show and say that it isn’t Biblical.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day…

Of course not. That’s not Biblical. Why would a Christian believe something that isn’t Biblical?

I don’t know. Why don’t you explain how they can believe that the Bible is the sole authority for their belief and practice when that is nowhere found in the Bible? Catholics don’t fall for that and never have.

Ah, yes. The old “preach the Gospel at all times, use words if necessary” silliness. That’s about as dumb as saying, “feed starving children. If necessary, use food”.

In the Bible, the model of evangelism is always proclaiming the Gospel, not living some sort of “lifestyle” and hoping that, somehow, the lost will manage to extrapolate the Gospel from that.

However, preaching w/o living it is about the surest way to discredit the Gospel, isn’t it?

BTW, the “silly” quote is from someone who did both, and your analogy is specious at best.

What’s the point of preaching a “new path” to someone who thinks that the path they’re on is just fine?

It is not the job of believers to condemn…conviction of sins is the work of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by the message preached on the day of Pentecost.

It’s also not Biblical.

According to you. However, I suspect that St. Francis of Assisi has won more souls to Christ, both in person and in his writings that have come down to us, than most n-Cs ever will, and will continue to until the Lord returns.

OK. Tell me how the Christian Gospel disagrees with the Bible.

“The Christian Gospel” doesn’t “disagree(s) with the Bible”, the n-C gospel does.
How Is A Catholic Saved?

Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38 & 22:16) and then following Christ, (John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, & 25:31-46, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23) which is a lifelong journey and not the oversimplified “plan of salvation” as presented by some non-Catholic communities.