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Seamus_L
Guest
That thought has been crossing my mind as well. If this opens the floodgates, we’re not going to have a leg to stand on against the accusation that this is simply Catholic divorce.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
The main process hasn’t changed though, the only thing that’s happened is the removal of the automatic appeal. There’s still the need to have witnesses, gather testimony, and do the proper consideration. I think it might come down to how often the automatic appeal has actually overturned the initial findings.
If it’s happened a lot, then we might need to reconsider.
If it rarely happens at all, then it’s not a major concern. There may be a few who slip through, but, unless they lied during the process, they will still be acting in good conscience.
The annulment process has never been perfect, even with appeals; as long as the core requirements haven’t changed for the initial declaration then there shouldn’t be much to worry about from a theological perspective. People will still lie to get an annulment, and those lies may not be uncovered, but that is on the person doing the lying, not on the Church.
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smead2942
Guest
The Catholic Church cannot change the dogma of sacramental marriage. Divorce cannot be permitted. Gays cannot marry. Those living unrepentant, sinful lifestyles cannot be allowed to approach the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.
If (God willing) Pope Francis remains steadfast in Christian morality, there will be a post-synod schism. The heretical German and other European bishops advocating the essential destruction of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony will not go down without a fight. We must remain loyal to God’s Truth and the Bride of Christ throughout these dark times, even if our shepherds do not.
If (God willing) Pope Francis remains steadfast in Christian morality, there will be a post-synod schism. The heretical German and other European bishops advocating the essential destruction of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony will not go down without a fight. We must remain loyal to God’s Truth and the Bride of Christ throughout these dark times, even if our shepherds do not.
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hadulzo
Guest
Never ceases to amaze me, wht the press reports vs the truth. I was listening to a Bishop on Catholic radio. The only thing that changed is in certain cases where the nullity is obvious the Bishop can bypass the appeal. He said the process will still take at least 6 months without the appeal.
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dans0622
Guest
Hello,
I’m not sure what you are saying was “reported” in the article. It is an opinion piece, basically, from a canon lawyer. I noticed one factual error (there was a Canadian involved in the process) in the article but that doesn’t change the overall point.
As far as changes, either the bishop was mistaken or you did not hear him correctly. There are more changes than that and even what you said is not accurate (regarding “bypassing the appeal”). There is an entirely new process for “obvious” cases. Appeal is a separate matter.
Dan
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Trader
Guest
Some reforms are needed. In our diocese the rule was that cases were processed in the order they were filed, with no exceptions. It makes perfect sense to me that some easy cases, like where there was an obvious lack of form, can be disposed of quickly. I see this as some needed common sense.
Our tribunals in the US have been swamped for the simple reason that we have so many marriages that really are invalid. So many people have bought into the proposition that their marriage is a private matter that can mean whatever they want, that there are legitimate grounds for a declaration of nullity in the majority of failed marriages.
The bigger problem for me is that the people in failed marriages view the process as a rubber stamp of their desire to end one marriage and enter another one. Unless the mindset that caused the first marriage to be invalid has changed, any subsequent marriage will also be invalid. Marriage counseling is a big help, but not even the Pope can force people to internalize what the Church teaches is necessary for a valid sacramental marriage.
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Usige
Guest
Right. I think one of the concerns is that the Bishop, who may have little to no training in Canon law, and be reliant on the reports of others who may not be trained either. The most interesting comment was the thought that it creates a presumption on invalidity if certain “obvious” conditions exist. Not being a canonist I don’t know if that is correct, but it certainly raised a potential issue I had never considered.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
If a person is baptized Catholic and has not formally renounced their faith, but was married outside of the Church without a dispensation, their marriage is automatically invalid due to lack of form. All that would theoretically be necessary to confirm this is to present documentation on where the wedding was held, and to contact the parishioner’s parish at the time to determine if a dispensation was granted.
Beyond this, the only other automatic invalidation that I can think of is when the marriage is entered into without full consent (a shotgun wedding), in which case the wedding is also automatically invalidated. This one may be a bit harder to prove though.
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Pug
Guest
Just a quick note. The formal renunciation of the faith exception thing is gone now. I think it was Benedict who did so around 2009. Maybe someone else recalls more details.
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JimG
Guest
It most likely appears to non-Catholics and anyone else not informed about the details of canon law that Catholic divorce already exists. Catholics marry; they get divorced; they obtain annulments; they remarry.
Mark121359
Well-known member
Many disagree. Cardinal Raymond Burke, Kurt Martens, professor of Canon Law at the Catholic University of America, Canon lawyer Edward Peters, consultant to the Apostolic Signatura to name just a few echo the same sentiment…“Catholic divorces.”
Peace, Mark
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Well, hopefully with the guidance of these, and other, holy men; the annulment process will be able to reach the balance needed between being true to God’s Law, and being more accessible to those who need it.
I’m still not clear on what has changed though. The only significant modifications I’ve heard about are that the automatic appeal is no longer in place, and the Church will absorb the costs of the process. Are there any other significant changes to the core process coming as a part of this declaration?
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LongingSoul
Guest
Looking at the big picture, there was always going to an inevitable defensiveness from canon lawyers regarding taking away a job ‘worthy’ of a lawyer and giving it to a less educated ‘judge’. The fact that this issue of divorced/remarried Catholic has been an area of copious investigation for the last 50 years with little long term resolution could suggest that some parties are ‘closed’ and their necessary (name removed by moderator)ut is impotent.
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JimG
Guest
Well, the linked article does not address whether canon lawyers need to worry about keeping their jobs. Actually, the greater worry is that the proposed changes place a greater workload on bishops. There is also a worry about whether the longstanding presumption in favor of validity is to be effectively reversed in some cases.
My own worry is that no matter how well the tribunal process is streamlined, many will perceive the entire thing as simply a process of Catholic divorce. One hopes that the synod will find a way to entice Catholics to take marriage more seriously.
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dans0622
Guest
Hello,
An entirely novel, judicial process has been proposed to handle what are called cases of obvious nullity. It is called a “shorter process” and the judgment is left to the diocesan bishop. While nobody can be sure how often this process will be used, it’s very presence is the most significant change.
Dan
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dans0622
Guest
Hello,
Well, once again the commentator is not employed by a tribunal. Besides, I have yet to see anyone say that canon lawyers will be less needed. Why would the introduction of a new, legal process (no process or judicial organ has been removed), and an anticipated/hoped-for increase in nullity cases, make any canon lawyer fearful about his employment opportunities? I certainly don’t have any such concerns.
Dan
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Whether that is something to worry about or not depends on what they mean by “obvious cases.” If they exclusively mean those in which there is a defect of form, then a streamlined process isn’t a bad thing because it would be impossible for a valid marriage to have occurred. (i.e. A Catholic married outside the Church without a dispensation.)
If they mean something else, like “they were obviously too young to know better,” or “no one nowadays knows what a marriage is going into it;” then we might be straying into dangerous territory, and I would agree that there is cause to worry about abuses.
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LongingSoul
Guest
No, I’m not suggesting canon lawyers are afraid of ‘losing their job’ but it is a factor in civil law that judges can be possessive of powers they deem worthy only of their esteemed position and perhaps that comes to play with the legal system of the Church. Added to that is the natural tension between the American philosophy of law and the Vaticans. I was recently reading excerpts from a book call Ascend: The Catholic Faith for a new generation. The authors Eric Stolz and Vince Tomkavicz describe the tension by way of this entry…
Canon Law- The system of law governing Church life. These laws are contained in the Code of Canon Law, And yes there is such a thing as a canon lawyer. Often we in the United States are confronted with matters of common law that we can misunderstand. Our American system of law is based on English common law which legislates the lowest common denominator to which all are held equally. Canon Law, however, is based on the principles of Roman Law which legislates the ideal and allows for exceptions. This difference in philosophy of law often makes for tense relations between Americans and the Vatican when rules are introduced; folks in the Vatican are often amused to hear Americans assume they must follow such laws to the letter.
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dans0622
Guest
Well, there is some solid rationale behind the notion that somebody who makes a judgment in a legal system will have knowledge of the system and what the judgment is supposed to be based on. You don’t need canon lawyers to tell you that a fair number of bishops don’t have a great interest in judging marriage cases.
As far as the quotation you provided…I can’t speak for the non-Canon lawyers and what they think of canon law but it wasn’t some Joe Schmo in the back pew who said “by their very nature canonical laws are to be observed.” That was Pope John Paul II. I guess he was not one of the “folks in the Vatican.”
Dan
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