We are all children of God?!

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every human has an immortal soul.

we know that we cannot limit God’s salvific Will.

we also know that the “ordinary” means of salvation, as given us by Jesus, resides in and through the magisterium of the Church, the apostles and their successors.

I see Francis’ actions and words as his personal emphasis on the apostolic commission to preach the Gospel to all nations.

I doubt that having the pope and bishops going around insisting that all non-catholics are totally out of luck when it comes to salvation because they do not know or accept all of catholic doctrine and law is the best strategy for preaching the Gospel to all nations.
 
Son_of_Niall said:
For crying out loud people, the point the Pope was making is simply to involve people of different religions in friendly dialogue and interaction, so we can live in peace with them.
Loving others who do not share our religious beliefs is an essential requirement as Christians in general, not just Catholics.
Stop getting your Catholic teaching from Michael Voris and Fox News.
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You are missing the point, I don’t see anything wrong with the message about collaboration and peace with other religions. You are intentionally misunderstanding what the problem here is. I am not complaining about the video, merely the phrase “we are all children of God” which is an untrue statement. His Holiness may have meant that in a very broad sense but it does not take away from the fact that it is not a true statement according to scripture and the catechism.

I’m not Pope bashing, I’m not saying that the Pope is an anti Pope or anything like that. I sought others thoughts, and so far the best explanation so far has been he meant it on the broadest sense, that we are all creatures of God. Fair enough, I out is a fair enough explanation, though the fact remains the words were poorly chosen.
 
Michael68 said:
What?
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This is also taught by the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. Because of original sin, we are all born children of wrath, except Our Lady, and through baptism become children of God. It’s unspeakably beautiful what happens to the soul at baptism, we could spend a lifetime just contemplating it.
 
I was created by God who knew me in my mother’s womb. Not sure what you guys are trying to say.
 
Michael68 said:
I was created by God who knew me in my mother’s womb. Not sure what you guys are trying to say.
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That you were created by God who knew you in your mother’s womb and that you were born with original sin which, through an amazing supernatural gift, was washed away at your baptism where you became not just created by God but a child of God.
 
I think that it may be an err to teach that God is only the Father of baptized people.

would not saying that mean that it is foolish for an unbaptized person to pray the Lord’s Prayer?

many bible verses are being cited to support the idea that the pope misspoke.

but could these not be misinterpretations of the verses cited?

perhaps the people to whom these verses refer are those who are in the state of grace and those who are not in the state of grace, maybe it is not simply about sacramental theology?

the whole issue may not be as cut and dried as some seem to believe.
 
I think Pope Francis is being taken out of context on purpose to slander him and the Church
 
Michael68 said:
I think Pope Francis is being taken out of context on purpose to slander him and the Church
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I’m sorry you think people are doing that, I presume you aren’t aiming that at me because I would not expect you to publicly accuse a complete stranger of the sinful intention of slander.

As I see it the Holy Father’s words are being received in the exact context he presented them in. Nobody is picking and chosing which quotes out of the video to discuss, the full and entire video is being discussed.

Is there something specific from the video that you think is being ignored which changes the context?
 
SirEwenii said:
I watched the Pope’s prayer intention video, which you can watch here

In it he makes the quite remarkable claim that we are all “children of God”, referring to people of other faiths including, Buddhists, Muslims and Jewish people.

I am used to hearing people use that phrase and I normally associate it with people who have been poorly catechised. We are made children of God through baptism according to Catholic theology.

this is an incredibly important theology in the scripture. St John especially has a very strong theology of what it means to be a child of God both in his gospel and in his first epistle. It is very clear from saint John that we are not naturally born children of God.

Why did the Holy Father say we were? We are all creatures of God surely, but that is very different from saying we are children of God. The devil is a creature of God.

Does anyone have thoughts here?
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“Children of God” is not a precise theological term, in the way, for example, we would use Theotokos, or concupiscence, among many other examples.

I think certain Muslims or protestants or atheists can and will use the same (poor) tactics to try to undermine what a Catholic says. They find something that - superficially - appears to be wrong or contradictory and then they reveal it and claim a supposed intellectual victory.

So, unless we choose to judge the Pope with the opposite of the benefit of the doubt, I think a pretty common sense understanding of what he said is that God loves all of us infinitely and that he is the Creator and Redeemer of all of humanity.

In precise theological language, Baptism is the first sacrament of initiation, removes Original Sin, personal sin, and puts us into a state of sanctifying grace. If I take what you said and turn it around: I might claim that it is all absurd. We don’t become the biological children of God. God is pure Spirit and has no gender or body. So “children of God” is allegedly completely wrong and bogus…

… but not really, because anybody and everybody ought to be able to understand that it is poetic language. Scripture frequently uses the analogy of God being our Father and God also being our Husband, because those are about the most intimate earthly analogies you could come up with, but in truth, our relationship with God is even deeper & more wonderful than either, beyond our understanding. St Aquinas explains that scripture uses similes in order to help us understand God, but that no human understanding can actually succeed in grasping it.

edit: Another note, calling God “Father” and ourselves “God’s children” was employed in the Old Testament, long before the Sacrament of Baptism.
 
Sometimes I wonder if the controversy over this question is not really more related to one’s understanding of natural law and justification. In this life, we are children of God who need to be saved. Is that wrong?
 
SirEwenii;13563243] I watched the Pope’s prayer intention video, which you can watch here
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In it he makes the quite remarkable claim that we are all “children of God”, referring to people of other faiths including, Buddhists, Muslims and Jewish people.
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I am used to hearing people use that phrase and I normally associate it with people who have been poorly catechised. We are made children of God through baptism according to Catholic theology.
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this is an incredibly important theology in the scripture. St John especially has a very strong theology of what it means to be a child of God both in his gospel and in his first epistle. It is very clear from saint John that we are not naturally born children of God.
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Why did the Holy Father say we were? We are all creatures of God surely, but that is very different from saying we are children of God. The devil is a creature of God.
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Does anyone have thoughts here?
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Jesus put it succinctly, and authoritively:-
“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me…(44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” [KJV] John 8:42 & 44 (Biblehub)
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And the Apostle Paul said the following:-
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” [KJV] Romans 8:14-17 (Biblehub)
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In view of these Scriptural statements, how can
"people of other faiths including, Buddhists, Muslims " (etc)
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be counted with the “Elect” under the Divine umbrella of “Sonship”?

Protector.
 
Like someone else posted, the prodigal son was dead, then alive. He didn’t cease being a son simply because he was outside his Father’s house and had squandered his blessing. He still had to repent. One could almost say he was worse off than someone completely ignorant because he freely threw away what his Father gave him. Anyway, there’s the human family, and then the Christian family. It’s makes me think of the micro and macro accounts of creation; different aspects of the same story.
 
We were created to know, love, and serve God. We may choose to honor a different “king,” say, the prince of this world, but that just makes us traitors, it doesn’t make God not our Father. If God wasn’t our father, I don’t see how Hell could be so hellish. God created us, not the Devil. All the Devil can do is distort and twist us. I guess I better stop, because I think a lot of this is a tempest in a tea pot, and now I’m just bloviating.
 
Protector said:
Jesus put it succinctly, and authoritively:-

And the Apostle Paul said the following:-

In view of these Scriptural statements, how can be counted with the “Elect” under the Divine umbrella of “Sonship”?

Protector.
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Oh, very good. I think nobody can refute that. But was that meant for the ears of Pope Francis, who had worked as a Professor of Theology and many more experience as theologian, priest and Bishop?
 
Reuben_J said:
Oh, very good. I think nobody can refute that. But was that meant for the ears of Pope Francis, who had worked as a Professor of Theology and many more experience as theologian, priest and Bishop?
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The Apostle Paul had no qualms about finding common ground with his opponents and working from that, hence his discourse about the unknown god, with the Greeks. I’d look it up, but I’m on my phone. You have to start with commonalities before launching into dialogue. Well, you don’t have to, but it’s certainly more fruitful. Sure, we aren’t necessarily supposed to leave it only at commonalities, but it helps to start there. Is that objectionable?
 
TCEL said:
The Apostle Paul had no qualms about finding common ground with his opponents and working from that, hence his discourse about the unknown god, with the Greeks. I’d look it up, but I’m on my phone. You have to start with commonalities before launching into dialogue. Well, you don’t have to, but it’s certainly more fruitful. Sure, we aren’t necessarily supposed to leave it only at commonalities, but it helps to start there. Is that objectionable?
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Ok. Are we referring to the video on Pope Francis or what St Paul said?
 
Reuben_J said:
Ok. Are we referring to the video on Pope Francis or what St Paul said?
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I think Pope Francis is employing Pauline tactics. I just watched the video, and I think from its context it’s perfectly logical to conclude he is charging us to dialogue based on our common humanity, not our common belief in Christ. God created us all, that’s a very good commonality.
 
TCEL said:
I think Pope Francis is employing Pauline tactics. I just watched the video, and I think from its context it’s perfectly logical to conclude he is charging us to dialogue based on our common humanity, not our common belief in Christ. God created us all, that’s a very good commonality.
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Good observation. 👍 I guess I am thinking along that line. Thus his usage of phrase ‘children of God’ cannot be taken legalistically and theologically as in our CCC because technically it may not be right per se.

On the other hand, I would not expect him to tell the people of other religions, "you are children of the Devil ".

One of Pope Francis strong points is his humility and willing to meet others half way on their term without comprising his. So yes, context is very important.

God bless.
 
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