We are all children of God?!

[TCEL]

On the other hand, I would not expect him to tell the people of other religions, "you are children of the Devil.

LOL. I have so many thoughts about that. But, my phone is about to die.

 

[TonyBS]

I think Pope Francis is employing Pauline tactics. I just watched the video, and I think from its context it’s perfectly logical to conclude he is charging us to dialogue based on our common humanity, not our common belief in Christ. God created us all, that’s a very good commonality.

This is a wonderful video and a wonderful talk by the Pope. God bless him and His Flock.

Christianity again has been blessed with a great Pope and much meditation on His advice is warranted and timely.

This is a Pope the whole world can love an appreciate. I as a Baha’i pray with Him and for Him in these troubled times.

A gift of music for this thread

youtu.be/2-n8sPkE6gE

God bless all and Regards Tony

 

[eazyduzit]

I think Pope Francis is being taken out of context on purpose to slander him and the Church

Hold on now. No one is using this as an excuse to slander the pope! I understand what he is saying, that we are all creations of God and that God loves us all, therefore we should all be able to get together and act as bothers and sisters.

But here’s the question. Does this mean or do people perceive this as saying that therefore all religions lead to God? That there are many ways?

 

[Reuben_J]

Hold on now. No one is using this as an excuse to slander the pope! I understand what he is saying, that we are all creations of God and that God loves us all, therefore we should all be able to get together and act as bothers and sisters.

But here’s the question. Does this mean or do people perceive this as saying that therefore all religions lead to God? That there are many ways?

I do not see how this lead to your questions. I do not see this being perceived here either just by what the Pope said, since especially you know what he was saying.

Anyway, I am not sure about Protestantism but the teaching of the Catholic Church (CCC) is quite clear on this. The fullness of truth can be found in the Catholic Church but others, through no fault of their own, may be saved by the grace of God, judgment being God’s prerogative.

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” CCC843

If one looks at how positive is the approach of Pope Francis to people of other religions, and not condemning them, it is perhaps he sees in them as potentials who could receive the truth of the Gospel. But even if that does not happen, God definitely does not despise them.

The details can be read in CCC (839-848 on non-Christians and outside the Church there is no salvation).

The advantage of the Catholic Church that has a readable Magisterium is that there is no place for ambiguity and anyone can delve into what she teaches.

 

[graciew]

Hold on now. No one is using this as an excuse to slander the pope! I understand what he is saying, that we are all creations of God and that God loves us all, therefore we should all be able to get together and act as bothers and sisters.

But here’s the question. Does this mean or do people perceive this as saying that therefore all religions lead to God? That there are many ways?

Nostra Aetate ,Paul VI

1. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man’s relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: “He who does not love does not know God” (1 John 4:8).

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Redemptoris Missio ,John Paul II

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio.html

. "The Church forms consciences by revealing to peoples the God whom they seek and do not yet know, the grandeur of man created in God’s image and loved by him, the equality of all men and women as God’s sons and daughters, the mastery of man over nature created by God and placed at man’s service, and the obligation to work for the development of the whole person and of all mankind.

1. Through the gospel message, the Church offers a force for liberation which promotes development precisely because it leads to conversion of heart and of ways of thinking, fosters the recognition of each person’s dignity, encourages solidarity, commitment and service of one’s neighbor, and gives everyone a place in God’s plan, which is the building of his kingdom of peace and justice, beginning already in this life. This is the biblical perspective of the “new heavens and a new earth” (cf. Is 65:17; 2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1), …"

usccb.org/news/2014/14-144.cfm

"The bishops affirmed Pope Francis’ words of November 28, 2013, to the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, that “dialogue does not mean renouncing one’s identity” nor accepting compromises on faith and morals "

 

[TonyBS]

The details can be read in CCC (839-848 on non-Christians and outside the Church there is no salvation).

The advantage of the Catholic Church that has a readable Magisterium is that there is no place for ambiguity and anyone can delve into what she teaches.

John 11:24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”…

John 6:46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48"I am the bread of life.…

Regards Tony

 

[Reuben_J]

John 11:24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”…

John 6:46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48"I am the bread of life.…

Regards Tony

CCC843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

Peace

 

[JohnGerard]

“Children of God” is not a precise theological term, in the way, for example, we would use Theotokos, or concupiscence, among many other examples.

So, unless we choose to judge the Pope with the opposite of the benefit of the doubt, I think a pretty common sense understanding of what he said is that God loves all of us infinitely and that he is the Creator and Redeemer of all of humanity.

edit: Another note, calling God “Father” and ourselves “God’s children” was employed in the Old Testament, long before the Sacrament of Baptism.

Hey TK421,

I like your post.

I think you nailed it. I think the Pope used “children of God” in the sense that you described to emphasize the final statement in the video…Basically, since God loves all people of all faiths and created us all…let us pray together…

“That sincere dialogue among men and women of different faiths may produce the fruits of peace and justice.” (from video)

It seems pretty clear to me contextually that he wasn’t saying everyone is a child of God in the sacramental sense. There are just different ways to interpret what he said, kindof like if someone said:

I love that man who is my brother.

1. He might be a biological brother.
2. He might be a friend who is not related but is a Christian and a brother in the Lord.
3. He might be a perfect stranger in need of assistance who is a brother as a fellow human being.

People could argue about which kindof brother is meant. This conversation that people are having about the Pope’s words sortof reminds me of something like that.

 

[TonyBS]

Hey TK421,

I like your post.

I think you nailed it. I think the Pope used “children of God” in the sense that you described to emphasize the final statement in the video…Basically, since God loves all people of all faiths and created us all…let us pray together…

“That sincere dialogue among men and women of different faiths may produce the fruits of peace and justice.” (from video)

It seems pretty clear to me contextually that he wasn’t saying everyone is a child of God in the sacramental sense. There are just different ways to interpret what he said, kindof like if someone said:

I love that man who is my brother.

1. He might be a biological brother.
2. He might be a friend who is not related but is a Christian and a brother in the Lord.
3. He might be a perfect stranger in need of assistance who is a brother as a fellow human being.

People could argue about which kindof brother is meant. This conversation that people are having about the Pope’s words sortof reminds me of something like that.

The Pope to me thinks along these lines;

It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-i-Maqsúd

“There is perfect brotherhood underlying humanity, for all are servants of one God and belong to one family under the protection of divine providence.” —‘Abdu’l-Bahá

“They whose hearts are warmed by the energizing influence of God’s creative love cherish His creatures for His sake, and recognize in every human face a sign of His reflected glory”. Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

Regards Tony

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I think Pope Francis is being taken out of context on purpose to slander him and the Church

No. People are creating straw men and tearing them down. There is a genuine confusion of what it means to be “children of God” and out of this confusion, misrepresentations are being made of what people think. For lack of a better term, the “conservative element” thinks that what the Pope said implies pluralism and universalism. Both are incorrect. There are no multiple paths to God and not everyone will be saved according to the Bible. There is only the narrow path.

We are all the children of God in the sense that everyone, Christian and non-Christian, owe our beings to Him. We are ontologically dependent on God. Also, Christian and non-Christians are all called to fulfill the general creation mandate: we are all to take care of the earth.

In terms of whether or not we are all in the state of grace, we are not equal. Christ told the pharisees that their true father was the Devil. Obviously, they were not children of God except in the general aforementioned sense. There is an actual hell and there are actual people in it. Some here have mentioned that the Church can’t pronounce who is in hell or not. That is correct. Neither can it pronounce who is in heaven. Non-Christians might be saved if they have no knowledge of Christianity but nevertheless, pursue the truth and abandon their pagan practices. Once someone has heard of Christianity, then he/she is obligated to believe it. Muslims and Jews must believe in the Trinity and Christ or they endanger their souls. Buddhist and hindu practices, particularly their meditation, make people vulnerable to demonic influence/possession. They are not neutral belief systems but are diametrically opposed to the good of the person and to Christianity.

The gospel is to believe in Jesus Christ, who died and rose again. Agnosticism regarding one’s eternal fate and faith in good works is not the gospel. A Muslim can be a good person in the social sense but if he is not cleansed by baptism and truly believes in Christ, then his good works will avail him nothing.

 

[fred_conty]

Here are two answers given in Ask an Apologist forum.

Fr. Charles Grondin
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=994424

Karlo Broussard
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=994488

 

[Michael68]

No. People are creating straw men and tearing them down. There is a genuine confusion of what it means to be “children of God” and out of this confusion, misrepresentations are being made of what people think. For lack of a better term, the “conservative element” thinks that what the Pope said implies pluralism and universalism. Both are incorrect. There are no multiple paths to God and not everyone will be saved according to the Bible. There is only the narrow path.

We are all the children of God in the sense that everyone, Christian and non-Christian, owe our beings to Him. We are ontologically dependent on God. Also, Christian and non-Christians are all called to fulfill the general creation mandate: we are all to take care of the earth.

In terms of whether or not we are all in the state of grace, we are not equal. Christ told the pharisees that their true father was the Devil. Obviously, they were not children of God except in the general aforementioned sense. There is an actual hell and there are actual people in it. Some here have mentioned that the Church can’t pronounce who is in hell or not. That is correct. Neither can it pronounce who is in heaven. Non-Christians might be saved if they have no knowledge of Christianity but nevertheless, pursue the truth and abandon their pagan practices. Once someone has heard of Christianity, then he/she is obligated to believe it. Muslims and Jews must believe in the Trinity and Christ or they endanger their souls. Buddhist and hindu practices, particularly their meditation, make people vulnerable to demonic influence/possession. They are not neutral belief systems but are diametrically opposed to the good of the person and to Christianity.

The gospel is to believe in Jesus Christ, who died and rose again. Agnosticism regarding one’s eternal fate and faith in good works is not the gospel. A Muslim can be a good person in the social sense but if he is not cleansed by baptism and truly believes in Christ, then his good works will avail him nothing.

I would say that context is what is being disputed. I believe the context is God as origin. To me, that makes more sense

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I would say that context is what is being disputed. I believe the context is God as origin. To me, that makes more sense

No disagreement there. In his City of God, Augustine claims that the City of God and the City of man are intermixed in that both share the same world. Hence, there can be and ought to be cooperation between the two to work for the common good or earthly good. This is what I got from the video although I was uncomfortable with the almost-hippie like tone. Pope Francis wasn’t in charge of filming it though so it is wrong to accuse the Pope of being “liberal” when it is the one who filmed it who gave the video the pluralistic vibe.

 

[Michael68]

No disagreement there. In his City of God, Augustine claims that the City of God and the City of man are intermixed in that both share the same world. Hence, there can be and ought to be cooperation between the two to work for the common good or earthly good. This is what I got from the video although I was uncomfortable with the almost-hippie like tone. Pope Francis wasn’t in charge of filming it though so it is wrong to accuse the Pope of being “liberal” when it is the one who filmed it who gave the video the pluralistic vibe.

I really love Pope Francis and I get disappointed and frustrated when he is taken out of context and then it is made to appear he is contradicting the Church.

 

[TonyBS]

I really love Pope Francis and I get disappointed and frustrated when he is taken out of context and then it is made to appear he is contradicting the Church.

From outside of the Church it is quite amusing to see people debate such a pure and wonderful comment.

God fobid it may lead to the acceptance of all humanity and the path they have to our one and only God.

Unity in Diversity could be considered.

But we could not have that could we.

Regards Tony.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

From outside of the Church it is quite amusing to see people debate such a pure and wonderful comment.

God fobid it may lead to the acceptance of all humanity and the path they have to our one and only God.

Unity in Diversity could be considered.

But we could not have that could we.

Regards Tony.

Cooperation in earthly matters. Pope Francis is thoroughly Augustinian when it comes to the Church’s interaction with the City of Man. Christianity precludes universalism and pluralism. That being said, we can all work together for the common good.

 

[TonyBS]

Cooperation in earthly matters. Pope Francis is thoroughly Augustinian when it comes to the Church’s interaction with the City of Man. Christianity precludes universalism and pluralism. That being said, we can all work together for the common good.

Man lives on this earth by Gods Bounty and Grace. We partake of its benefits only because God allows us to do so.

Thus to be united as man is great service to our God.

We have to consider in our lives render unto God what is Gods and unto mans rule what is mans. The key here is that mans rule cannot transgress Gods Laws or the balance is lost.

You may have noticed the balance has been lost

Regards Tony

 

[KathleenGee]

Good points, Tony.

Fr Grondin link pretty much explained it.

And just because someone is not baptized, certainly does not make that person a child of Satan.

It is by free will and choice one commits good deeds or bad deeds. Reuben brings a Scripture pointing out that all people can perceive the presence of God through reason and nature.

I have met or heard of indigenous people who are not baptized who are nevertheless good people who live by the golden rule, and these…united with us…also walk on the same path to salvation.

We never know that our unity with all people of good will may, I say this out of mystery of faith…connect them with the Lord Jesus Christ. If there is any exhortation the saints give us is to not condemn other people. Only God can judge the human heart.

The only standard we can discern are actual actions: lying, murder, theft, calumny, adultery, covetous…and towards the divine: sacrilege, blasphemy, idolatry, infidelity.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I have met or heard of indigenous people who are not baptized who are nevertheless good people who live by the golden rule, and these…united with us…also walk on the same path to salvation.

umm, this is Pelagianism and pluralism. Being a “good person” does not ensure you are walking the path of salvation.

 Granted, if an indigenous people has not heard of Christianity, he/she may come to the conclusion that there is one God and may be saved by God. He/she is not saved by living by the golden rule. When it comes to our salvation, we bring nothing to the table. We are not saved by being "good people". If someone has heard of Christ, but rejects Him then he/she is not on the path of salvation despite whatever good work he/she does. We are not saved through works but through faith in Christ, which is displayed by works.

In Pope Francis’s Evangeli Gaudium, he writes, “The salvation which God offers us is the work of his mercy. No human efforts, however good they may be, can enable us to merit so great a gift.”

He also writes quoting St. John Paul II, “‘There can be no true evangelization without the explicit proclamation of Jesus as Lord’ and without ‘the primacy of the proclamation of Jesus Christ in all evangelizing work’”.

It is ironic that there are those who would try to use Pope Francis to tout a vague pluralistic pelagianism in which any member of a religion just has to live a good life to be saved:shrug:.

 

[TonyBS]

It is ironic that there are those who would try to use Pope Francis to tout a vague pluralistic pelagianism in which any member of a religion just has to live a good life to be saved:shrug:.

Jon - It is with a different Frame of Reference they look.

With God there is no limit to the Frames we can use, with man we tend to limit it to but few to look through.

Thus when one looks at the Popes Talk one does not Change What He says, one can view it with a broader meaning if one looks at it another way.

Great thing about Gods word is it not, Consider creation is from two letters B & E joined and knit together.

How much more meaning in the Alphabet, how much more in a word, how much more!!!

Regards Tony