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Stephen_III
Guest
It would appear that the Pope answers the implied outstanding question of whether (or not as the Protestant media would like it) he believes that it is Christ through the sacrament of Baptism that we become: “children of God”.
This sermon was from this past Sunday and just a couple days after the video in question was put out.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/do-you-celebrate-the-day-of-your-baptism-pope-francis-asks-62327/
"Vatican City, Jan 10, 2016 / 05:35 am (CNA/EWTN News).- In his Sunday Angelus remarks Pope Francis stressed the importance of both knowing and celebrating the day of our baptism, since it is through the sacrament that we become children of God.
“I ask you a question: who among you remembers the day of their baptism?” the Pope asked during his Jan. 10 Angelus address, marking the feast of the Baptism of the Lord.
“Certainly, not everyone” knows the date, he noted, and urged those who don’t to go and look for it, if necessary asking parents, grandparents, godparents or even their parish for help.
Baptism is important to celebrate because “it’s the date of our rebirth as children of God,” Francis said, and gave those present “the homework” of finding the date during the coming week.
Before praying the Angelus Pope Francis baptized 26 babies – 13 girls and 13 boys – in the Sistine Chapel. He asked pilgrims gathered in St. Peter’s Square to offer special prayers for the infants before turning to the day’s Scripture passages.
In his reflections, the Pope recalled how when Jesus was baptized in the day’s Gospel, taken from Luke, the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit came in the form of a dove.
With the Father’s words “This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased,” Jesus is consecrated and becomes the awaited Messiah, savior and liberator, he said.
He noted that in the event of Jesus’ baptism, the transition is made from John’s baptism with water, to the baptism of Jesus in “Spirit and fire.”
Francis said that the Holy Spirit is really the protagonist in the sacrament, since “he is the one who burns and destroys original sin, returning to baptism the beauty of divine grace.”
“It is he who liberates us from the dominion of darkness, which is sin, and brings us into the realm of light, which is love, truth and peace,” the Pope said, and encouraged attendees to think about special dignity they are elevated to in receiving baptism, namely, that of becoming children of God.
The “stupendous reality” of being children of God brings with it the responsibility to follow Jesus, who is an obedient servant, he said. It also reproduces within us the features of Jesus, primarily those of meekness, humility and tenderness.
Pope Francis noted that it “isn’t easy” to do this, “especially if, inside of ourselves, there is so much intolerance, arrogance and harshness.” However, with the strength that comes from the Holy Spirit, “it’s possible!”
He explained that the Holy Spirit “opens our heart to the truth, to the entire truth,” and guides us down the difficult yet fulfilling path of charity and solidarity with those around us…"
Pretty easy to see that his video comments were more in regards to the ontological or common creator sense of the use of the phrase…
This sermon was from this past Sunday and just a couple days after the video in question was put out.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/do-you-celebrate-the-day-of-your-baptism-pope-francis-asks-62327/
"Vatican City, Jan 10, 2016 / 05:35 am (CNA/EWTN News).- In his Sunday Angelus remarks Pope Francis stressed the importance of both knowing and celebrating the day of our baptism, since it is through the sacrament that we become children of God.
“I ask you a question: who among you remembers the day of their baptism?” the Pope asked during his Jan. 10 Angelus address, marking the feast of the Baptism of the Lord.
“Certainly, not everyone” knows the date, he noted, and urged those who don’t to go and look for it, if necessary asking parents, grandparents, godparents or even their parish for help.
Baptism is important to celebrate because “it’s the date of our rebirth as children of God,” Francis said, and gave those present “the homework” of finding the date during the coming week.
Before praying the Angelus Pope Francis baptized 26 babies – 13 girls and 13 boys – in the Sistine Chapel. He asked pilgrims gathered in St. Peter’s Square to offer special prayers for the infants before turning to the day’s Scripture passages.
In his reflections, the Pope recalled how when Jesus was baptized in the day’s Gospel, taken from Luke, the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit came in the form of a dove.
With the Father’s words “This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased,” Jesus is consecrated and becomes the awaited Messiah, savior and liberator, he said.
He noted that in the event of Jesus’ baptism, the transition is made from John’s baptism with water, to the baptism of Jesus in “Spirit and fire.”
Francis said that the Holy Spirit is really the protagonist in the sacrament, since “he is the one who burns and destroys original sin, returning to baptism the beauty of divine grace.”
“It is he who liberates us from the dominion of darkness, which is sin, and brings us into the realm of light, which is love, truth and peace,” the Pope said, and encouraged attendees to think about special dignity they are elevated to in receiving baptism, namely, that of becoming children of God.
The “stupendous reality” of being children of God brings with it the responsibility to follow Jesus, who is an obedient servant, he said. It also reproduces within us the features of Jesus, primarily those of meekness, humility and tenderness.
Pope Francis noted that it “isn’t easy” to do this, “especially if, inside of ourselves, there is so much intolerance, arrogance and harshness.” However, with the strength that comes from the Holy Spirit, “it’s possible!”
He explained that the Holy Spirit “opens our heart to the truth, to the entire truth,” and guides us down the difficult yet fulfilling path of charity and solidarity with those around us…"
Pretty easy to see that his video comments were more in regards to the ontological or common creator sense of the use of the phrase…
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
We are born with original sin. Because of that, we cannot get to heaven and we can’t live in heaven. There is nothing in our nature that can change this, no amount of natural goodness, kindness etc. We can’t build a rocket and fly there and we can’t build a cannon and shoot ourselves there. If we die in this state, our soul will fall into the abyss. However, there is a gift that can change that, that can cause our souls to go to heaven and allow us to live there, and that power is called Sanctifying Grace. If we die with sanctifying grace, we will spend eternity in heaven. If we die without it, we will spend eternity in hell. Everything the church does comes down to conferring, defending, increasing, or restoring Sanctifying Grace.
God has given us everything, we haven’t earned any of it. A person first receives sanctifying grace through baptism, and it is increased and strengthened through confirmation and Holy communion. If a person commits a single mortal sin, he loses all of his sanctifying grace, but God has provided the sacrament of confession to restore grace when it’s lost. The most important thing we will ever do is die, and we must die with sanctifying grace.
It’s perfectly logical, except that God has showered us with all of these blessings and we haven’t done a thing to earn them. Man cannot go to heaven, and cannot live there without sanctifying grace. We know that God can bestow Sanctifying Grace however he pleases, but we cannot say with any authority what will happen to those who encounter the Catholic Church yet refuse to be joined with her. I want to see everybody in heaven (I hope I make it there myself) but I cannot pretend that there is any other known ‘path’ other than the one revealed by God when he came to earth (baptism and the other sacraments, dying in the state of grace), so those who aren’t part of it in this life, I trust God to make a perfect decision regarding their soul, I don’t presume that he’ll do one thing or another, because it’s his call, not mine. I personally think it is cruel to pretend we know that someone can get to heaven by any other means, because we do not know for certain, and that spreads false hope.
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Jon_Mallory
Guest
I never. claimed to know who is and who is not in heaven or for that matter who is in hell. Hell exists though. I don’t relish in that fact, but it does. The scriptures are very clear on that and they are also very clear that not everyone will be in heaven. Please don’t put words in my mouth that make me appear arrogant. Also, Lordhavemercy’s post is spot on when it comes to original sin and the path of salvation. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Fyi, God’s ways are not bound by human reasoning.
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Genesis315
Guest
According to Cardinal Kasper, back when he was in charge of ecumenism, this may indeed be the case. In the context of distinguishing between dialogue with other religions and ecumenism (which only involves baptized Christians), he said it is baptism that allows us to pray the Our Father:
Cardinal Kasper:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20020107_peace-kasper_en.html
That being said, while we become children of God by our baptism, we are all offspring of God, as St. Paul said to the pagans in Athens (see Acts 17:22-29). God can be viewed as a common Father in this sense and sometimes this general term offspring is rendered as children, which I assume is the context in the video in question.
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DonCampbell
Guest
The video definitely smacks of indifferentism. One could very easily interpret it as a message from the Pope that all religions are equal because we are all children of God, just seeking him on different, but equally valid, paths.
The “characters” in the video - a Protestant, a Jew, a Muslim and a Budhist - are portrayed in a positive and affirming light without any suggestion that they are missing anything or living with less than the full Truth, or need Jesus, or that the Catholic Church has anything special to offer them.
I was particularly troubled by the conclusion of the video, where 4 sets of hands lift up a baby Jesus, a Jewish menora, a statue of Budha, and a set of Islamic prayer beads toward the center of the screen together - the clear implication being that they are all equally valid ways of worshiping God and we should simply accept one another without seeking to convert anyone.
I am quite sure that many, many people who watch the video will take this message away. The message is too overt and well-crafted for it to have been an “accident” of sloppy or poorly thought out media production. It goes wll beyond “can’t we all just get along?”
This is particularly problematic given the currently dominant worldview that the only true religion is “love” - i.e., that there is no need to worship any particular God, in any particular way, so long as we love one another and seek God as we understand him.
There is a very large “faction” within the Catholic Church that supports this view. Pope Francis has stated that he feels the greatest failure of the post-Vatican II Church has been in the area of ecumenism, and that he believes he has the “audacity” to try to rectify this failure. Personally, I feel that while ecumenism has its place and its purpose, it can never be allowed to replace or take precedence over evangelization. And that’s what bothers me so much about this video.
The “characters” in the video - a Protestant, a Jew, a Muslim and a Budhist - are portrayed in a positive and affirming light without any suggestion that they are missing anything or living with less than the full Truth, or need Jesus, or that the Catholic Church has anything special to offer them.
I was particularly troubled by the conclusion of the video, where 4 sets of hands lift up a baby Jesus, a Jewish menora, a statue of Budha, and a set of Islamic prayer beads toward the center of the screen together - the clear implication being that they are all equally valid ways of worshiping God and we should simply accept one another without seeking to convert anyone.
I am quite sure that many, many people who watch the video will take this message away. The message is too overt and well-crafted for it to have been an “accident” of sloppy or poorly thought out media production. It goes wll beyond “can’t we all just get along?”
This is particularly problematic given the currently dominant worldview that the only true religion is “love” - i.e., that there is no need to worship any particular God, in any particular way, so long as we love one another and seek God as we understand him.
There is a very large “faction” within the Catholic Church that supports this view. Pope Francis has stated that he feels the greatest failure of the post-Vatican II Church has been in the area of ecumenism, and that he believes he has the “audacity” to try to rectify this failure. Personally, I feel that while ecumenism has its place and its purpose, it can never be allowed to replace or take precedence over evangelization. And that’s what bothers me so much about this video.
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TonyBS
Guest
God bless Pope Francis, God bless the message that we do indeed worship the One and only God.
I would ask how could anyone not like this?
Regards Tony
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DonCampbell
Guest
Tony, I am sure it feels good to say that, but:
Are you saying it makes no difference how we conceive of God, so long as we pay homage to the God we perceive, and so long as we “love one another”? Are you saying that is all that really mattters, so Budhists and Muslims and Jews should be affirmed as Budhists and Muslims and Jews so long as they worship their God and “love”? Are you sayng that they need not be evangelized to reject their false religions and become disciples of Jesus Christ?
I would ask you to please explain how Budhists worship the same God as Christians, given that Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity?
Or why it makes no difference that Muslims consider the concept of a Holy Trinity composed of Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be blasphemy? Can it be “okay” to claim that the true nature of God as he has revealed himself to mankind (i.e., as the Holy Trinity) is an abomination?
The Vatican II Fathers said that it is not impossible for those outside the formal boundaries of the Church to be saved. They did not say that it was likely, or probable. They did not say that we should stand down in our efforts to evangelize them and instead affirm them in their beliefs as being on equally valid paths to God. The result of such a position would be to render Christianity meaningless by allowing everyone to make up their own concept of God so long as they “love”. It denies that God is an actual, personal BEING with particular CHARACERISTICS who deserves to be WORSHIPPED for who he is. In other words, it renders religion superfluous. That may be nice but it is not Catholicsm and it is not Christianity.
Are you saying it makes no difference how we conceive of God, so long as we pay homage to the God we perceive, and so long as we “love one another”? Are you saying that is all that really mattters, so Budhists and Muslims and Jews should be affirmed as Budhists and Muslims and Jews so long as they worship their God and “love”? Are you sayng that they need not be evangelized to reject their false religions and become disciples of Jesus Christ?
I would ask you to please explain how Budhists worship the same God as Christians, given that Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity?
Or why it makes no difference that Muslims consider the concept of a Holy Trinity composed of Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be blasphemy? Can it be “okay” to claim that the true nature of God as he has revealed himself to mankind (i.e., as the Holy Trinity) is an abomination?
The Vatican II Fathers said that it is not impossible for those outside the formal boundaries of the Church to be saved. They did not say that it was likely, or probable. They did not say that we should stand down in our efforts to evangelize them and instead affirm them in their beliefs as being on equally valid paths to God. The result of such a position would be to render Christianity meaningless by allowing everyone to make up their own concept of God so long as they “love”. It denies that God is an actual, personal BEING with particular CHARACERISTICS who deserves to be WORSHIPPED for who he is. In other words, it renders religion superfluous. That may be nice but it is not Catholicsm and it is not Christianity.
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TonyBS
Guest
Hi Don thank you for the question and observations. This is a very relevant question to the day in which we live, I offer this as it asks the questions as to why all the Prophets have come and sacraficed;
“…what could have been the purpose of those holy Beings in enduring such agonies? Why did those precious and luminous souls accept all that hardship and pain? Any just observer will acknowledge that They had no other end in view but to better the human race, and cleanse it from the imperfections of this contingent world, and see to its advancement, and endow all peoples with the wondrous virtues of humankind…”. reference.bahai.org/en/t/bwc/BK/bk-167.html
Abdul’baha the Son of Baha’u’llah has suggested, and if you consider the above, this thought provoking passage;
“…Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician…”. reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PT/pt-41.html
Thus I am more than happy to embrace and Share this message of the Pope, it is full of Love, full of Hope, Full of what is of Christ.
Regards Tony
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
Very well said, thank you very much for writing this.
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Jon_Mallory
Guest
The problem is that those who are not saved by faith through Christ and hence not covered by his grace are under the law–whether that be the written law of the Jews or the same principles of that law in the heart of all people. Breaking one of God’s laws merits damnation and who can keep the whole law without breaking it once? This is why Jesus is so precious because He frees us from the tyranny of the law with forgiveness. But you have to ask to receive it. No one should presume upon God’s mercy. Thank Jesus for reconciling us to the Father! Praise Him!
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Reuben_J
Guest
I can understand that they may be many Catholics who are not comfortable with the video or may be disturbed by the role of Pope Francis in it. As for me, my earlier posts being self-explained, I would take it in context, which I feel very important to derive any opinion on it.
Obviously, the Pope is in an inter-faith meeting of some kind and perhaps to promote goodwill among the different religions. I thought it was that way though I could be wrong. If it was, then it was surely not a place for the Pope to make a determined preaching by his words, as the persons of the other religions there could easily express theirs too, there and then, as a response. I think probably everybody there would want to avoid such scenario or perhaps there must be prior understanding to what such a meeting should be. All that, is of course, my assumption.
If the context was what it was, then what the Pope did and said, surely was within the doctrine of Catholicism without denying it. But if we see too much out of it, then of course, it would be subjected to any interpretations which one chooses to take.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
My friend, I am certain of original sin and its consequences because it is a dogma of the faith, it’s more certain than the sun coming up tomorrow. The someone “who figured out what sacrament rituals to employ to give ‘sanctifying grace’” was God. Literally God, in the flesh, came to earth, and gave us everything we need.
I have never said otherwise. We know there’s one sure path (baptism, the other sacraments dying in the state of grace) and we cannot place any confidence in any other path. We don’t know if God makes secret little exceptions here and there. If we truly love our non-Catholic neighbors, we won’t prevent them from converting and being baptized, and sharing in the beautiful life for us, by pretending that they’re already safe in their current religion. If someone is drowning, you don’t talk about how beautiful the water is, you throw them a life jacket.
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Jon_Mallory
Guest
No one can put a limit to Christ’s mercy. Could it be that someone can find faith In Christ after death? Possibly.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
No. If you die without sanctifying grace, that’s it. No heaven. But sanctifying grace is bestowed by God and only He can chose how to bestow it. I’m thankful that God gave us one way to definitely receive sanctifying grace, that’s more than we deserve already. Whatever God chooses to do is perfect. As a convert, I have to face the daily reality that my non-Catholic family members, who I love so dearly, could be excluding themselves from heaven by refusing to become Catholic, and it would not make God mean/cruel/unmerciful/unjust if that happened. I simply pray that they will convert, and trust that God will give them every chance to do so.
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graciew
Guest
Code:
I have an anecdote that helped me see a bit beyond. I understand what you are saying.They flourished ,became happy and started learning with great pleasure. So much so , that they played together after school bringing curiosity and interest to their learning and activities after school.
Such was their joy and change that our eldest became interested in what had happened and started watching them attentively.
In turn , after a couple of years ,our eldest asked for a change. He loved his peers but as bright as he was ,he realized there was that joy and genuine learning interest that he lacked and these two siblings displayed with such happiness.
I do not have recipes ,but we " understood" how something so deep and so encouraging could draw the best out of life stories.
Sharing. Not disputing anything. Just a story close to my heart.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
Thank you for sharing. As I am not yet a father, I cannot yet understand the love that a parent has for a child, but I have so much admiration for it. It’s really beautiful.
I’ve tried every combination of fonts and smileys, and have decided there is no way to ask this question that makes it sound nice, so please just trust that I am asking this without the slightest bit of sarcasm or rudeness: could you help me to draw the line between your story and my post? I truly want to understand what you are saying.
I know, the question reads in a very compative tone, but if we were discussing face to face it probably wouldn’t. I think.
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graciew
Guest
Be at peace. I could connect with that love you expressed for your relatives . And though some posts are kind of cold and neutral ,and it is fine ,yours came across.as one you experienced in your heart.Thank you for sharing. As I am not yet a father, I cannot yet understand the love that a parent has for a child, but I have so much admiration for it. It’s really beautiful.
I’ve tried every combination of fonts and smileys, and have decided there is no way to ask this question that makes it sound nice, so please just trust that I am asking this without the slightest bit of sarcasm or rudeness: could you help me to draw the line between your story and my post? I truly want to understand what you are saying.
I know, the question reads in a very compative tone, but if we were discussing face to face it probably wouldn’t. I think.
Thus , it is something beyond words that works as a magnet. As it happened to our eldest.
You conveyed that in your post, at least to me.
And it is that experiencing joy and trust and love that we draw closer.
That is all. There is no line. Just connection there.
God bless you.
PS and I agree with your face to face. And apologize when I do not sound very lineal when it is a connection with sth in the heart. That is my fault,that is me…
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TonyBS
Guest
You are not alone in your hopes for your Family. There are Muslims that pray this for this Families, there are Baha’i’s that Pray this for their Families.
This is the key to be a “Children Of God” - “O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting”.
Thus God will judge all Souls on to where their Heart was given to these virtues, it may be many do not find God in this Life in a specific Religion, but there are many Worlds of God and His Forgiveness and Bounty is unlimited. There are many that do no profess a Faith in God that do “Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart” and many that follow a Faith that do not.
Have trust in God that His Justice and forgiveness is all embracing and each day we are responsible to make our lives reflect what is of God and prayer for all others to find this path.
Regards Tony
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DenSa
Guest
I don’t know if anyone has found this yet but it’s from Pope Benedict’s Angelus on January 8, 2012:
*Being born is never a choice, we are not asked first whether we wish to be born. Yet, in life, we can develop a free attitude with regard to life itself: we can regard it as a gift and, in a certain sense “become” what we are: children. This transition marks a turning point of maturity in our existence and in our relationship with our parents, which is filled with gratitude. It is a transition that also renders us capable in turn of being parents, not biologically, but morally.
Also before God we are all children. God is at the root of every created being’s life and is the Father of every human person in a special way: he has a unique and personal relationship with every human being. Each one of us is wanted and loved by God. And also in this relationship with God, we can be “reborn”, so to speak, in other words become what we are. This happens through faith, through a profound and personal “yes” to God as the origin and foundation of our existence. With this “yes” I receive life as a gift of the Father who is in Heaven, a Parent whom I do not see but in whom I believe and whom, in the depths of my heart, I feel is my Father and the Father of all my brethren in humanity, an immensely good and faithful Father.
On what is this faith in God the Father based? It is based on Jesus Christ: he himself and his history reveal the Father to us, enable us to know him as much is possible in this world. Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, makes it possible to be “born from above”, that is, from God, who is Love (cf. Jn 3:3). *
*Being born is never a choice, we are not asked first whether we wish to be born. Yet, in life, we can develop a free attitude with regard to life itself: we can regard it as a gift and, in a certain sense “become” what we are: children. This transition marks a turning point of maturity in our existence and in our relationship with our parents, which is filled with gratitude. It is a transition that also renders us capable in turn of being parents, not biologically, but morally.
Also before God we are all children. God is at the root of every created being’s life and is the Father of every human person in a special way: he has a unique and personal relationship with every human being. Each one of us is wanted and loved by God. And also in this relationship with God, we can be “reborn”, so to speak, in other words become what we are. This happens through faith, through a profound and personal “yes” to God as the origin and foundation of our existence. With this “yes” I receive life as a gift of the Father who is in Heaven, a Parent whom I do not see but in whom I believe and whom, in the depths of my heart, I feel is my Father and the Father of all my brethren in humanity, an immensely good and faithful Father.
On what is this faith in God the Father based? It is based on Jesus Christ: he himself and his history reveal the Father to us, enable us to know him as much is possible in this world. Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, makes it possible to be “born from above”, that is, from God, who is Love (cf. Jn 3:3). *
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