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George720
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He asks “Why are we (Melkites) in Communion with our most distant brothers, but not with our closest ones with whom we have family and neighborly ties…” (My rephrase from memory)…
A decent question…
geo
A decent question…
geo
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ziapueblo
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As Bishop Nicholas Samra of the Melkite Church has said, and I’m paraphrasing some, “we have everything in common with the Orthodox except communion, and little in common with Rome, except for communion.”
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George720
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I love the brutality of his logic…
I could not bring myself to read the whole article…
I am getting old and beginning the journey inward…
Sorting out such issues is better left to my youngers…
geo
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Phillip_Rolfes
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I read Kyr Zoghby’s essay a couple of times years ago when I was still working at Eastern Christian Publications. It had a very deep influence on me. At the time I was blessed to be attending a Melkite Greek Catholic parish in McLean, VA. where the Liturgy and approach to the Faith was, in many ways, more Orthodox than some of the local Orthodox communities I frequented. Zoghby was the one who really convinced me that if I was going to turn eastward, I needed to fully embrace the East and not just let myself be a “Catholic-who-celebrates-Mass-funny” (my own expression).
I remember hearing a recording of (former) Patriarch Gregorios III (Laham) in which he claimed to be “Orthodox with a plus” - the “plus” being communion with Rome. Thanks to Zoghby, I’ve always considered this the ideal of the Eastern Catholic Churches (i.e. to be who we are without apology to Rome for being different).
I remember hearing a recording of (former) Patriarch Gregorios III (Laham) in which he claimed to be “Orthodox with a plus” - the “plus” being communion with Rome. Thanks to Zoghby, I’ve always considered this the ideal of the Eastern Catholic Churches (i.e. to be who we are without apology to Rome for being different).
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ziapueblo
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TomH1
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Could you give a brief summary? I’ve downloaded the PDF file and intend to read it but 148 pages is a lot to read before I could post anything on this topic.
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ziapueblo
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Basically, and I agree with him, that Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in communion with Rome and that communion with Rome should be as it was in the first millennium. He spoke of dual communion for the Melkites with both the Orthodox and Rome and the need to rewrite the present Canon Law for the Eastern Catholic Churches.
There’s more but that’s it in a nutshell. Very good read in my opinion.
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There’s more but that’s it in a nutshell. Very good read in my opinion.
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Phillip_Rolfes
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I remember also he makes the argument that both Catholics and Orthodox are, in a sense, schismatic because the ancient tradition would be for the Churches to be in communion with one another (not one “subordinate” to the other).
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AlNg
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It looks to me like Catholics like to claim that their differences with the Orthodox are quite minimal, whereas this is not how Orthodox feel. Generally, Orthodox will tell you that there are too many differences and that these differences are quite substantial.
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Neithan
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There is a marked difference between the attitudes to Rome among Orthodox clergy and laity, in my experience, and between Moscow and Constantinople. Russian Orthodox highlight the many irreconcilable differences with Catholics and how reunion is impossible. Other Eastern Orthodox laity take a similar view. When I hear or read the opinions of other (non-Russian) Orthodox clergy, however, it seems that only papal supremacy is the real problem. Other differences are not fatal to reunion.
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Mary888
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AlNg
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Well, are Catholics willing to concede on the doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction and papal infallibility?
Further, how many Ukrainian Eastern Catholics do you know? Those that I spoke with have a quite intense dislike of the Russian Orthodox Church and want all Russian Orthodox out of Ukraine.
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ziapueblo
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Orthodox I know (priests and laity) are very welcoming to full communion and only Papal supreme and immediate jurisdiction over the Church is the issue.
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JSRG
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I don’t know, I’ve seen a lot of Orthodox still complain about the filioque.
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ziapueblo
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When it comes to most Orthodox theologians that are working with Catholics in theological dialogue, teachings such as the IC and filioque are non-issues. The major issue is universal and immediate jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome over the whole Church.
As long as we Orthodox are allowed to express our faith according to the Traditions of the Eastern fathers and govern our Churches without interference from Rome, I think that a restoration in communion is possible. Easier said then done lol!
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As long as we Orthodox are allowed to express our faith according to the Traditions of the Eastern fathers and govern our Churches without interference from Rome, I think that a restoration in communion is possible. Easier said then done lol!
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George720
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We do have an expression - eg:
“OK, I get that you are Orthodox…
But are you Christian??”
.The feature that I found was that the Truth can be found in Orthodoxy in spite of rotten egg discipling, for the literature is so replete, beginning with the Dessert Fathers, then the Philokalia, then the Ascetically Homilies of St. Isaac the Syrian, then the Lives of the Saints, and then contemporary elders and notzo contemporaries… The literature is vast and consistent, even if not found all that much at B. Dalton or public libraries…
We do not get snagged in the online catechism for answers, where the answers trail off into a vast labyrinth of nuance and subtlety and rabbit trail definitions… Instead we simply learn what we can and visit monasteries on pilgrimages and for those called the Way is not blocked with an official catechism that is hard to read and not easy to remember… The point is that by being discipled in the praxis of the Faith, we slowly and patiently and step by step find it being written in our very souls… Often without words… But in self sacrifice and love…
But as the times seem to dictate dispersion, I am simply glad to know that faithful men and women can be found in all walks, and you never know when one is going to show up… And as we get better in our Walk, more and more of these make themselves visible to us - Or at least we start seeing more of them…
The Mystery of the Faith, held in a pure conscience, is entered and moved through in purity of heart, and is assaulted by and through the heart’s impurities… The times are getting very dicey…
geo
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dochawk
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That’s not even a religious issue.
Ukrainians for some reason want their imperial overlords and oppressors out of their country in general . . . the church is just another aspect of this.
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AlNg
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When you have murals in Ukrainian Catholic Churches showing Putin burning in hell, and when you have Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests calling for all Russian Orthodox to leave Ukraine, when you have Ukrainian Catholics showing hostility to Russian Orthodox Christians whose ancestors have been in Ukraine for centuries, then it doesn’t really matter whether it is a religious issue or a political issue. It just illustrates the fact that many Eastern Catholics in Ukraine just do not want to have anything to do with the Russian Orthodox Church or their members. It was even in the news that some of the Eastern Catholic Ukrainian clergy were upset when Pope Francis met with the Russian Patriarch Kirill in Cuba. Two days after the meeting between Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill, the leader of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of Kiev-Halych, Ukraine, said that many Ukrainians felt betrayed by the Vatican as it signed an ecumenical joint declaration with Patriarch Kirill and that the document was half true. Bishop Hlib Lonchyna from Ukraine’s Greek Catholic church said that this was an incomprehensible move by the Vatican.
How is reconciliation possible between Catholics and Russian Orthodox, when Ukrainian Eastern Catholic leaders say that the joint declaration was a betrayal?
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Phillip_Rolfes
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I completely agree with you here @george720. My only observation is that everything you’ve said about Orthodoxy here can be equally applied to Catholicism in general and, dare I say, Roman Catholicism in particular. I only know this because I’ve witnessed it first-hand, growing up as I did in a rural parish among simple (not ignorant) country folk who were guided by good pastors.
As much as I enjoy intellectual Faith discussions, both online and offline, the danger I’ve often encountered is the temptation to reduce the Faith to an intellectual exercise as opposed to a Way to be traveled, a life to be lived. However, that’s not what I’ve seen with my own eyes at some of the parishes I’ve belonged to in the past, nor is it what I’ve encountered in what I’ve read in the lives and writings of some of the great Roman Catholic mystics like Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, Alphonsus Liguori, and the like.
Another error or temptation that many fall into is holding up the Catechism as the guide for living rather than a tool for teaching. I love the current Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’ve read it cover-to-cover, and have frequent recourse to it in my search for deeper understanding. In many ways it’s a very Eastern document (it almost continually quotes from the early Church Fathers, especially those of the East). But it is no replacement for living the Faith and seeking guidance from an experienced spiritual director on the Way. Intellectual knowledge of the Catechism, while perhaps impressive (and necessary to an extent), won’t save me. As human persons we can’t stop at knowledge. Knowledge must inform our lives, or better, be made manifest in how we live. Otherwise, do we really “know”?
Circling back, I’ve known many saintly Roman Catholics who put me in mind of the Russian Pilgrim because of their intense searching for Christ and the simplicity of their faith. My own mother was like that. Lately my own spiritual life has been an attempt to get back to that early simplicity. Perhaps that’s why I find the Desert Fathers so attractive…
As much as I enjoy intellectual Faith discussions, both online and offline, the danger I’ve often encountered is the temptation to reduce the Faith to an intellectual exercise as opposed to a Way to be traveled, a life to be lived. However, that’s not what I’ve seen with my own eyes at some of the parishes I’ve belonged to in the past, nor is it what I’ve encountered in what I’ve read in the lives and writings of some of the great Roman Catholic mystics like Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, Alphonsus Liguori, and the like.
Another error or temptation that many fall into is holding up the Catechism as the guide for living rather than a tool for teaching. I love the current Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’ve read it cover-to-cover, and have frequent recourse to it in my search for deeper understanding. In many ways it’s a very Eastern document (it almost continually quotes from the early Church Fathers, especially those of the East). But it is no replacement for living the Faith and seeking guidance from an experienced spiritual director on the Way. Intellectual knowledge of the Catechism, while perhaps impressive (and necessary to an extent), won’t save me. As human persons we can’t stop at knowledge. Knowledge must inform our lives, or better, be made manifest in how we live. Otherwise, do we really “know”?
Circling back, I’ve known many saintly Roman Catholics who put me in mind of the Russian Pilgrim because of their intense searching for Christ and the simplicity of their faith. My own mother was like that. Lately my own spiritual life has been an attempt to get back to that early simplicity. Perhaps that’s why I find the Desert Fathers so attractive…
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