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TomH1
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Thank you!
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AlNg
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Its sad if Catholics do not want to forgive the Russian Orthodox faithful Christians for something that was done in the past under a totalitarian dictatorship and for things done which were out of their control. There was a war going on against Nazi Germany which was putting innocent people in gas chambers. And as you know, there were Ukrainian Greek Catholics who welcomed the Nazis as they entered Ukraine.
I am thinking about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) operating in the Nazi occupied areas which carried out a vicious genocidal massacre against minorities in Volhunia, Eastern Galicia with the support of many of the local Ukrainian population. Innocent people were tortured and mutilated and this was carried out with the support of the Bandera faction of the Organisation of Ukrainian nationalists. And is it true that Polish-born German historian Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe described “active and direct participation of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in support of the OUN-UPA, precisely as a movement with a pro-fascist ideology.” ?
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dochawk
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???
This “past” includes this morning, an hour ago, and a minute ago.
No, it wasn’t just during the soviet dictatorship but continues as I type this.
The MP is still oppressing the UCC, is still holding the churches, monasteries, etc taken from it with soviet guns, is still denying the legitimacy of it, the historic church of the Ukraine which it forced underground with with the NVKD in the false synod of Lviv . . .
ROC/MP oppression of the UCC is not “historic”, but continuing and ongoing . . .
gee, folks coming in shooting at the folks who execute us. How shall we react?
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Sounds funny, coming from someone who likes to bring up (on multiple threads to same effect) excommunications of 1054, sack of Constantinople, Croatians vs Serbs, atrocities of Athos and etc …
Now, political issues exist. Ukraine-Russia situation is not about religion at all, it is mostly about politics and historical jurisdiction. You can’t pretend that’s legitimate reason for withholding full communion.
I guess I understand essence of what he means to say, but that statement makes me very sad. Is there so little in common between Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics? If we just look at things we went through together and things we opposed together, we can see it isn’t as true as some would like it to be. It would be like saying Latin Church has more in common with sedevacantists/anglicans/old catholics than with Eastern Catholics. Rites do not define the Church, but Church defines the rites… and as such, full communion defines the essence of the Church. Rites exist to bring divine closer to us, to make us feel and live according to tradition of the Church and of our ancestors… but Catholics share all the divine things with Catholics, no matter the rite…
However sad, it is a fact in Western Christianity as well. I am not in communion with my father who is Evangelical, but I am in communion with every single person belonging to the Catholic Church in any country you choose, however distant it may be. Reality of schisms is still there to this day, and just because we are family, friends and neighbors with different faith (or Church), it does not mean we are not all children of God. At the same time, it does not mean we should disregard fact we aren’t in full communion.
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AlNg
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What sounds funny to me is:
I was reading Matthew 5:24 and it gives a different slant on things.
When the Nazis invaded France, people were openly crying in the streets.
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Obviously as doc has explained, situation was different in France. Was someone executing the French and Nazis came to fight those people? Probably not. Context matters.
According to David, Ukrainians do not hate those who belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, but Russian Orthodox Church itself… so that does not exactly apply. If, however, situation is that Russian Orthodox Christians are hated (not necessarily their church as institution), you’re right.
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AlNg
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Who was executing ukrainians and why were they executed? If Russians are so hated in Ukraine, why did the Ukrainians elect a Moscow puppet for President?
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Athanasiy
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It’s love, it’s not hate.
If I kill the enemy who came to my home, who murders, takes away territory, and starts again to brainwash my children and destroys my national identity by fables(centuries old fables) , then if I kill the enemy I do it from love.
From love to my country, my nation, otherwise I ll cease to exist as identity, genealogy, as a spirit.
Just imagine the craftiness of Kremlin strategy, now they convince the world that its Ukrainians who kill themselves in a civil war.
Give enemy the finger and he will bite all your hand. Let’s talk about forgiveness and tolerance and later they will demand to judge Ukraine soldiers as criminals who kill their brothers.
(in russki orthodox church you can hear it from many priests. some priests even in Ukraine do not pray for Ukrainian soldiers, who passed to eternity)
If I kill the enemy who came to my home, who murders, takes away territory, and starts again to brainwash my children and destroys my national identity by fables(centuries old fables) , then if I kill the enemy I do it from love.
From love to my country, my nation, otherwise I ll cease to exist as identity, genealogy, as a spirit.
Just imagine the craftiness of Kremlin strategy, now they convince the world that its Ukrainians who kill themselves in a civil war.
Give enemy the finger and he will bite all your hand. Let’s talk about forgiveness and tolerance and later they will demand to judge Ukraine soldiers as criminals who kill their brothers.
(in russki orthodox church you can hear it from many priests. some priests even in Ukraine do not pray for Ukrainian soldiers, who passed to eternity)
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ziapueblo
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From the Melkite Horologion:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
And why is it a bad thing to have differences in theology? I always hear form Byzantine Catholics “unity in diversity.” The early Church shared the same faith but was diverse in its theology as we see in UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO.
I would agree with this statement. The Latin Church has way more in common liturgically and spiritually with these ecclesiastical communities. What the Latin Church shares with Eastern Catholics is communion. I really don’t see what is bad about this. When people think this is a bad thing I feel it really means, “they should really be Roman Catholics with just a different Liturgy.”
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Actually would mean Ukrainian Catholics do not hate Russians but only what their Church is doing. Wonderful, furthers up our points.
Theology wasn’t diverse because of Rites.
Yes, but liturgy and spirituality are secondary to Church- primary things are unity, apostolicity, sanctity and universality.
That’s a sentiment that should be stopped, but minority of people who are somehow educated in faith hold this. People who hold this also generally think Latin Rite is Mass alone anyway.
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ziapueblo
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A “rite” is much more than liturgical patrimony.
I’m just saying, this is flying pretty close to sounding like Latin dominance.
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Why? Are Easterners not in unity, not apostolic, not universal or are they not striving towards sanctity? How is that Latin at all?
Yet concept of Rites was not necessarily present, not in fashion we know it today. There were theological schools, but they were not limited by rites.
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ziapueblo
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Because what is sung/chanted in the Divine Liturgy is what we believe. Our theology is expressed in the Divine Liturgy. Our spirituality is expressed in the Divine Liturgy.
Are the Eastern Orthodox the same as the Latin Church? Do we share the same theology? Spirituality? I’m guessing you will say we are not, or at least not completely. I would agree, but what about Byzantine Catholics? They share the same liturgical (not only liturgy but lectionary), theological and spiritual patrimony as the Eastern Orthodox.
As I said, in the East, our beliefs are expressed in the Divine Liturgy and other liturgical services. Byzantine Catholics share the same liturgy as we Orthodox, word for word, with the exception of praying for the Pope of Rome. How can you not see that Byzantine Catholics and Roman Catholics have only one thing in common, that is, communion?
ZP
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AlNg
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I think what it really means is that most Ukrainians are OK with Russians and the use of the Russian language in Ukraine. But there is a small element of Ukrainian nationalists whose organization had been allied with the Nazis and who were responsible for massacres and executions. They are the fascist oriented, neoNazi types who want all Russians out of Ukraine and who do everything they can to provoke hatred against Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church. It was the the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) operating in the Nazi occupied areas which carried out a vicious genocidal massacre against minorities in Volhunia, Eastern Galicia. And please look up what was done by the Bandera faction of the Organisation of Ukrainian nationalists. Unfortunately, according to the Polish-born German historian Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe, elements in the Ukrainian Greek catholic church supported the OUN-UPA. This is the element, not the majority of Ukrainians, that welcomed the Nazis as they entered Ukraine.
You can see by the recent Ukrainian election, that most Ukrainians want peace and cooperation with Russia. Why else would they elect a puppet of Moscow? Just as there is division in the USA, so too the Ukrainians are not united and there is a strong minority opposition to peaceful solutions to their problems.
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Not solely. Same way Mass encompasses beliefs and truths, but not all of them.
It is faith what we have in common, communion comes afterwards. We are part of Catholic Church, and partake of it’s apostolicity, unity, universality and sanctity. That is what we have in common. Expressions of faith are different but I would not go wrong using Eastern expressions in Latin Church anyway.
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ziapueblo
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That that includes us Orthodox, according UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO and Ut Unum Sint.
From Ut Unum Sint
“Ecumenical contacts have thus made possible essential clarifications with regard to the traditional controversies concerning Christology, so much so that we have been able to profess together the faith which we have in common.”
That’s not true. Listen to the Troparions and Kontakions sung in the Divine Liturgy or what is sung at Vespers. They express what we believe. That’s why any Eastern Christian on this forum, Orthodox or Catholic, when asked what Eastern Christians believe, the answer is almost always, “go to the Divine Liturgy and find out.”
ZP
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Yeah but I doubt every single dogma is present in Liturgy alone.
Small f, but I guess so. Yet, they are not united with Catholic Church to this day. I understand our views on what constitutes the Church differ, but Eastern Catholics did accept Vatican I and hence hold to those views, at least they should.
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ziapueblo
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Go to the Divine Liturgy and other liturgical services of the Byzantine Churches for a whole year and find out.
Also how did Roman Catholics know what they believed before there was a Catechism? Lex orandi lex credendi (we pray what we believe).
ZP
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Yes, but not only. Some dogmas require high theological education to fully comprehend. Is Palamism present in Orthodox Divine Liturgy? If so, I never noticed…
To some extent, everything can be deduced from the Liturgy… at the same time, everything can be deduced from the Bible. Yet we do not go by Bible alone, neither by Liturgy alone. We aren’t Protestants to choose only one source.
I never attended for the whole year, but I spent my first semester at university attending almost exclusively Divine Liturgy. Granted, I still am stranger to many other Eastern services, but it isn’t like I attended only couple of times.
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ziapueblo
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He is present, second Sunday of Great Lent:
Troparion — Tone 8
O light of Orthodoxy, teacher of the Church, its confirmation, / O ideal of monks and invincible champion of theologians, / O wonder-working Gregory, glory of Thessalonica and preacher of grace, / always intercede before the Lord that our souls may be saved.
Kontakion — Tone 8
Holy and divine instrument of wisdom, / joyful trumpet of theology, / together we sing your praises, O God-inspired Gregory. / Since you now stand before the Original Mind, guide our minds to Him, O Father, / so that we may sing to you: “Rejoice, preacher of grace.”
My priest will definitely speak of St Gregory Palamas and his teaching during the homily and how they are linked to the Fast.
Agreed, but no one had their own Bibles until only recently, and that said, the majority of the world is not quite literate.
My mother-in-laws husband, both southern baptist (she became Catholic when she married my father-in-law but went back to her roots after their divorce) came with us on Theophany. He was amazed by they hymns and the teaching that came from them.
ZP
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