We ARE saved by Works.

[NotWorthy]

I am sorry and sad that you were failed by the shepherds. I suggest you put this post on the thread “why I left the Catholic Church”.

Hurry up guanophore!!! You’re catching up!!!

 

[Robert902]

Edited, Robert I answered post 252 in 256.

Robert, let me post two points that urge us not to sin.

Jesus tells us if our hand causes us to sin, cut it off. Why? Because it’s better to go without a hand then to burn in the fires of Gehenna (paraphrasing). This is not loss of rewards, this is loss of salvation.

Paul in Romans 3:7, Paul preaches against telling lies in order to bring other to Christ: Paul is talking of being condemned as a sinner, not losing rewards in heaven.

Romans 3:7-8 I think you are missing Paul’s point here. These two false arguments are based on the idea that the Lord needs sin in order to demonstrate that He is God. He needs nothing of the kind. Since He is God, He will in the presence of sin show himself to be what He is. But how much more glorious to see what and who He is in the sphere of eternal fellowship with Him than in banishment from His presence, with all the consequences thereof.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t think so. I think it begins with grace. Man cannot have faith without God first giving grace. Grace is God’s part, and faith is man’s part. When the two are mixed together, they produce salvation.

One needs to be careful there, otherwise one gets a dodgy conclusion, like Galatianism. If grace were not a constant reality for those justifked by the Blood of Christ, all the time, no “just works” would be worth anything; they would be nothing.​

At all events, we are certainly not saved by works - how can good works be done by those who are dead “in trespasses and sins”, who are “unrighteous” ? As well might a corpse walk on both feet.

 

[guanophore]

Those are Jesus’ words. Also, remember, Jesus gave us a New Commandment. “To Love one another as I have loved you”. Did He give us a commandment that He knew we couldn’t keep?
He sure did. Do you keep the ten commandments? I try, but fall short. That’s why I needed a savior like Jesus. If I could, then Jesus wouldn’t have had to have gone to the cross for our sins.

I thought the parable of the Sheeps and Goats was rather clear on this.

It is very clear. Christ is our shepherd.

God Bless,
Robert

Yes, Robert, and as the shepherd, he separates those that do HIs will from those who do not. Those that do His will unto life, and those that do not into eternal punishment.

Robert902:

Look at the Prodigal Son. Remember Jesus is talking about the Kingdom of God.

The Son is part of the family. (He would be “saved” at this point in time, a child of God).

The Son gives up his inheritance for the evils of this world. (He’s turned his back on God).

The Son repents and turns back to the Father. Notice the Son had to repent and then return to the Father before he was welcomed back. He still had nothing while he was servicing the pigs, but got the robe and the ring when he came back to His Father’s Home.

The son returned because he was one of God’s chosen. IAnd, if he had not returned, then he was not chosen by God.

God Bless,
Robert

This is an erroneous conclusion, Robert. The son belonged to the household. He had an inheritance. People who are not members of the family and worthy of inheritance cannot stand up one day and demand their “portion”. He returned because he 'came to himself" and realized that he had left the better part.

 

[DiscernVoc]

2 Tim 4:6-8. “I have kept the faith”. Life had been a trust from God, and he had been a good steward. He had kept the faith. If he had the faith to keep, it must have come from some place? He kept, what he had been give by the Spirit.

Phil. 2:12 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Verse 13 makes it clear that it is God who does the work in us.
"
1 Cor 9:27. “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”
Paul is thinking of the Judgement Seat of Christ where the rewards are given. In the Second Epistle to the Corinthians he will talk about the fact that we shall appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ where awards are given. Paul says that he is in a race trying to run so that he will get a reward.
Every Christian should work for a reward. We do not work for our salvation; that is a gift given by the grace of God.

God Bless,
Robert

As for the verse from Timothy you are being too literal. “…kept the faith…” means that he lived the Christian life until the end. If you read on, Paul is joyous because he will be judged by Christ as “righteous.” This implies that this wouldn’t be the case if he stopped living as a Christian. I don’t know where you derive anything about where he gets the faith. It says nothing about that here. As for the verse in Phillipians I never said that God doen’t work through us. I do believe we are able to resist God working through us. This is implyed in us having free will. You still have said nothing about this verse being out of context in terms of relating to the loseability of salvation. As for the last verse, I have heard other Protestants bring up this rewards concept. I don’t see how this verse is referring to that. I think you are talking about 2 Cor 5:10. When I read 2 Cor. 5:10 it sounds like Paul is speaking of our judgement. Is not this judgement whether or not we are going to Heaven or Hell. It seems a little convenient that Protestants change this verse into meaning the level of rewards the saved get when they get to heaven. Anyway, I see nothing in 1 Cor. 9:27, or any verse around it that says Paul is talking about rewards and not salvation. I do have to go to sleep now, but I would be happy to continue this tomorrow.

Good night and God Bless,
Jim

 

[NotWorthy]

Robert, One last thing before I go to bed (for now).

In the parable of the Sheeps and the Goats - a parable that you say Jesus is talking of the rewards you will get in heaven. How do you reconcile that with Jesus’ judgment of the goats:

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[johnnydigit]

“The wages of sin is death.” And that’s why someone had to pay for our sins, because of what you are talking about. Our God is a God of justice, and the penalty for our sins has been paid for in full by Jesus on the cross. If that debt hadn’t been paid for, I would agree with you about us being judged for our sins. What good did it do for Jesus to go to the cross and die for our sins, if we are still going to be judged for them. It just doesn’t make any sense at all.

let’s try it in simple terms,

it’s like he died to open up the gates. there was a giant, rusty lock chained onto it, and his sacrifice to God let him break the chains. they were locked closed ever since Adam and Eve messed up and they were kicked out of the garden. BUT WOAH THERE, just because the garden is opened for business doesn’t mean you all can rush in just because you say, “Lord, Lord, i have a “saved” pass!” Jesus is also the security guard at the gates. he has your life on video, but he also knows your thoughts and hearts. he is also the fountain of infinite mercy. he will determine if you actually get to walk through the turnstyle gates and come inside.

it’s dangerous to think otherwise. it is a false sense of security the evil one is tricking you into believing. he is making you think that you can do whatever you want and it’s ok, you’re still going through the gates. NO! Jesus has warned us, that if you are not good, don’t repent, and don’t make up for those sins, he is not letting you go through the gates. “Lord, Lord! i have a “saved” non-refundable ticket” is NOT going to cut it.

one person’s explanation of salvation covers some of the issues, but not the others. some make sense in one part, but not in the others. there is only one explanation that clearly covers them all, and i’ll give you a hint, it is 2000 years old and is practiced by the majority of the Christians in the world. it has been held in tact and the way Jesus established it ever since the original Apostles and earliest Christians. it is the only one that makes sense, and leaves your heart in complete peace, without a single doubt, just the way he intended it.

 

[guanophore]

Lets say a self labeled “Christian” belived in God’s existance but had no value, regard, or belief for any of His teachings and with a grudge did works with zero compasion and love just for the sake of looking like a “good guy” to his neighbors.

(I know it’s not very likely)

I know we can not pretend to have an understanding of God grace but in your opinion what would you say Heaven or Hell?

Jesus has already spoken on this point:

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

 

[DiscernVoc]

Do you think that Catholics that are fallen away and not doing any works are saved?

If they are not receiving any sacraments, can they still be doing works?

Are they still receiving grace and even if they have not commited a mortal sin?

I ask not to judge them but to be able to see where they are if they ask.

dessert

While I have sympathy for fallen away Catholics as I was one at one time, I don’t think it is judgemental to assume that a former Catholic who is away from the sacraments is probably jeopardizing their salvation. While I am generalizing a bit I can hardly imagine a situation where someone is wandering through the secular world without confession or the Eucharist can possibly remain in a state of grace. Shoot, the very act of missing Sunday obligation is an objectively mortal sin. So don’t bring out a “don’t judge lest you be judged” I am merely bringing up a very general point which just happens to be true if you believe what the Church teaches.

 

[DiscernVoc]

When a Catholic person is strong in faith their light is strong but when they go away from the Church their light dies out to a flicker even smaller. As they get closer to the secular things it replaces the light but is the light the Holy Spirit or is it their virtue of their Faith itself the light?
Does that mean that the gift of Faith is diminishing?
If so how? dessert

Faith along with the rest of the fruits of the spirit will decrease as they fall away from the source. Christ left us the Church as the way to Him. The farther we get from the church the easier it is to lose the way. The Catholic who has already been nurtured by the Church has more to lose than those that have never been. By the way, this is my understanding of what the Church teaches on salvation. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit each one of us has to interpret the teachings of the Magesterium as best as we are able.

 

[dessert]

While I have sympathy for fallen away Catholics as I was one at one time, I don’t think it is judgemental to assume that a former Catholic who is away from the sacraments is probably jeopardizing their salvation. While I am generalizing a bit I can hardly imagine a situation where someone is wandering through the secular world without confession or the Eucharist can possibly remain in a state of grace. Shoot, the very act of missing Sunday obligation is an objectively mortal sin. So don’t bring out a “don’t judge lest you be judged” I am merely bringing up a very general point which just happens to be true if you believe what the Church teaches.

Thanks that kind of explains it for me, so the works will more than likely not be there or evidence there of because the grace has been lessened because of the lack of faith?

I was fallen too and only living by a little grace a priest told me, not enough for salvation that I can remember.

Is grace and faith and works mearsured out then?

I know Jesus talks as faith as small as a seed can do much but is it measured to each person differently?

dessert

 

[DiscernVoc]

Thanks that kind of explains it for me, so the works will more than likely not be there or evidence there of because the grace has been lessened because of the lack of faith?

I was fallen too and only living by a little grace a priest told me, not enough for salvation that I can remember.

Is grace and faith and works mearsured out then?

I know Jesus talks as faith as small as a seed can do much but is it measured to each person differently?

dessert

According to the Church, there are actually two types of Grace. There is the Grace we are born with. This Grace is in all men and it is what draws us near to God. It causes us to search for something higher throughout our lives. This is probably why every civilization in some way or another tries to reach for something higher. This is what agnostics and atheists don’t understand. The majority of them think religions were created to explain nature alone. They often fail to understand that the Grace God gives us causes us to want to be close to God. This Grace can also be understood as the part of God that remains in us from the creation of the first humans. The interesting thing about this is that agnostics and atheists have this as well. If you notice, they often speak of the accomplishments of mankind and science as their “higher power”, to borrow from the twelve steps. To them their faith in the world is what gives them comfort. It is their attempt to quench the desire that inherent grace gives them. Unfortunately for them, they may never experience the second kind of Grace. This is God’s saving grace. This is the offer of love that God gives us. We accept this love by saying “yes” to God through the most important act of free will we have. This act of free will is laid out carefully by God in His revealed plan for us. This plan is laid out in the traditions of the Catholic Church, Christ’s true church. By living and breathing this way of life (the early Christians called it The Way) we say yes to God and receive this Grace. With this Grace, we receive many gifts or fruits of the (Holy) Spirit. Among these are a growing faith, understanding, love, happiness, humility, courage, and most of all salvation. We can, however, say no to God’s love. This is done by sin. By God’s love, we are able to be forgiven and have a chance to accept this free offering of Grace by way of the Sacraments. God, being all merciful, has plans for those outside the Church as well. According to Church tradition, it is possible for those to be saved outside the Church. God, being all-knowing, knows the heart of a person. He knows if that person was given the chance to know God through His Church on earth, whether or not they would say yes to God. Each of us has the first kind of Grace and this Grace gives us an idea of the objective good. As Catholics we believe that if people outside the church obey this inherent khowledge of good to the best of their ability God may save them through extraordinary means. They will receive a special form of Baptism and their souls will be free from mortal sin and able to be united to God’s free offer of Grace, His gesture of love.

 

[DiscernVoc]

Thanks that kind of explains it for me, so the works will more than likely not be there or evidence there of because the grace has been lessened because of the lack of faith?

I was fallen too and only living by a little grace a priest told me, not enough for salvation that I can remember.

Is grace and faith and works mearsured out then?

I know Jesus talks as faith as small as a seed can do much but is it measured to each person differently?

dessert

Faith should be viewed as a form of righteousness. Its actually a type of work. This is one of the reasons that Sola Fide is incorrect. It is a form of works-based salvation.

 

[mikeledes]

Are you able to keep the commandments? I can’t. Romans 3:20 seems to indicate that no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin.
If you could keep the commandments, which no one can, you wouldn’t need a savior.

God Bless,
Robert

1 John 5:2-3

**2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. **

Why are His commanments not burdensome? Because those who have the Holy Spirit, namely the children of God, have been delivered from the power of sin and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a life pleasing to God. Like I said to you in another thread - and I’m still posting in that one as well - Christians are not required to live perfect lives from the moment they become a child of God till they die in order to enter eternal glory. In fact, Christians will sin. However, we have a merciful Father who will fogive us if we repent and confess our sins. What is important is the state of your soul at death. Have you persevered to the end?

Keeping the commandments of God apart from the grace of God will not get anyone anywhere. Reception of grace must precede any attempt to keep the commandments. If we sin after the reception of grace and the Holy Spirit, we must repent or there will be serious consequences. David himself said the following after the Bathsheba incident:

Psalm 51:11

11Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

God bless,
Michael

 

[DiscernVoc]

1 John 5:2-3

2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Why are His commanments not burdensome? Because those who have the Holy Spirit, namely the children of God, have been delivered from the power of sin and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a life pleasing to God. Like I said to you in another thread - and I’m still posting in that one as well - Christians are not required to live perfect lives from the moment they become a child of God till they die in order to enter eternal glory. In fact, Christians will sin. However, we have a merciful Father who will fogive us if we repent and confess our sins. What is important is the state of your soul at death. Have you persevered to the end?

Keeping the commandments of God apart from the grace of God will not get anyone anywhere. Reception of grace must precede any attempt to keep the commandments. If we sin after the reception of grace and the Holy Spirit, we must repent or there will be serious consequences. David himself said the following after the Bathsheba incident:

Psalm 51:11

**11Do not cast me away **from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

God bless,
Michael

Right on!

 

[Robert902]

Robert, please answer this. You’re stuck on this doctrine without reconciling it with others. You say that Jesus died for all of our sins. We can then continue to sin and still be saved?

Jesus says that not all of us will remain in Him, and then you spout that nothing can snatch us away from God. Of course not. But we can give up this free gift, just as the Prodigal Son did. How do we give this up (or how do we not remain in Him), by not keeping His commandments.

You amaze me, Robert, with this theology. Read over Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. He doesn’t call us to simply “have faith”, he tells us to live the Gospel. Listen to the Our Father, "Forgive us our sins, as (Robert, AS) we forgive those who tresspass against us.

Look at the parable where the master forgives his servant of his debt. (This servant is saved at this point, He is remaining in Christ). What happens when the servant doesn’t forgive a lesser debt? He gets thrown into prison (He loses his Salvation, He no longer remains in Christ).

Again, agreed! Christ loves me. But I must love Him and remain in Him. I could throw away my inheritance just as the Prodigal Son does.

This is a whole other thread. The Eternal Life is God’s Love, His Grace if you will. This Grace resides in our soul, provided we remain in Him.
That’s the whole part of the Repent thing, Robert. Remember, Repenting is one of those “Necessary” things for Salvation. Repent means to turn away from sin. You can’t have it both ways - Sin and Redemption.

Notice, Romans says “Have been”. Paul’s not saying “Go ahead and sin again, 'cause Jesus has got your back”. Paul exhorts them to remain sinless.

I simply can’t believe you feel that you can sin (which is an abomination to God) and still think that you love Jesus with all your heart. Until you can go without sinning, you can never admit that.

No one can go without sinning. What about Adam? He was as close to being perfect as possible, and He couldn’t avoid sin. So are you saying that you are any better then Adam?
For some reason you seem to think that I am “promoting” sinning. What gives you that idea? It just really is not Biblical to think that you at some point in your life here on earth, you will get to a point through hard effort where you will be able to not sin. It’s part of our fallen nature. Sure, we are to try and avoid sin, and might be able to do so for a very short period of time, but we will sin again, and again, and again, and again. Anyone who thinks they don’t sin are guilty of sin, because “the truth is not in them.”

God Bless,
Robert

 

[ronnok20]

If you have no works your faith is dead and you may as well not have any faith because you aren’t saved. To think you will get over with claiming you have faith and then do nothing as a confirming result you are decieving yourself.

What types of works save us? All kinds actually because many things we do can prove we truly believe.

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise. But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Works do not save you. Works are a by-product of your faith. Following Jesus means that you will do good works, but this is not what saves you. Faith alone saves you ultimately. Jesus said, you must receive Heaven as a child receives a gift. That means no questions, no concerns of where it came from, you just take it. It’s faith in Jesus Christ

 

[Robert902]

This is just an incomplete teaching of the truth to which you have been subjected, Robert. Most likely through no fault of your own.

1 Tim 2:3-5
God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God wants all to be saved. Some people do not WANT to be saved. God created human beings with free will. He wants us to love Him out of choice, and desire to be with Him. Therefore, to those who choose otherwise, He respects their choice. Your double predestination doctrine is difficult because it rejects the teachings of creation, that God created man with the ability to choose.

Deut 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life…"

Why would God tell us we have a choice, if we reallly don’t?

You are right, though, no one can take salvation away. One can throw it away. No one will snatch the saved from His hand, but they can bite that hand, and jump out of it.

If you have free will, as you seem to think that you do let me ask you to try an experiment for me?

Using your “free” will to choose, choose that you are not going to sin anymore. “Will” you do that for me?

God Bless,
Robert

 

[ronnok20]

If you have free will, as you seem to think that you do let me ask you to try an experiment for me?

Using your “free” will to choose, choose that you are not going to sin anymore. “Will” you do that for me?

God Bless,
Robert

It is not possible. Scripture says that all have fallen short of the grace of God. (That includes Mary).

 

[Robert902]

His inheritance. We gain our inheritance when we are saved. Our inheritance is the free gift of Eternal Life.

That boy was in nothing that can be construed as heaven with no extra rewards. He left the promised land, Robert and lived among the unclean. That is not a heavenly context in the parable.

So where do you think that the prodigal son is now?

God Bless,
Robert