We ARE saved by Works.

[NotWorthy]

Let’s not forget our good friend, St. Peter in 1 Peter 1:13-16 -

*“*Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, live soberly, and set your hopes completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, ‘Be holy because I [am] holy.”

 

[DiscernVoc]

Robert, In the parable of the 3 men who are given the talents - what happens to the man who did nothing with his talents?

And our good friend St. Paul talks about a day of Retribution in Romans 2:5-7:
More from St. Paul to the Thessalonians: (1 Thes. 4:3-8)

This thread has been very helpful to me. I have family members who are evangelicals and you guys have brought up verses that I was not aware of yet. They are always debating me and anything that I can get to help them see the truth is a blessing. I pray that Robert is getting much out of this too. It is so evident in the New Testament that God expects us to avoid sin and repent.

Thanks and God Bless,
Jim

 

[NotWorthy]

This thread has been very helpful to me. I have family members who are evangelicals and you guys have brought up verses that I was not aware of yet. They are always debating me and anything that I can get to help them see the truth is a blessing. I pray that Robert is getting much out of this too. It is so evident in the New Testament that God expects us to avoid sin and repent.

Thanks and God Bless,
Jim

Thanks, Jim. It’s amazing what I learn when I actually read and study the Bible! Any doubts that these guys plant are forever wiped away!!!

 

[ironchef]

Jesus died for us, but we need both faith and works as He demanded.

Can faith alone be enough? Can works alone be enough?

hi, every one needs to get a statue of Mary and as many of the saints as possible. then send all day bowing down to them. oh, thank you catholic church for allowing us to prat to graven images, even though the bible expressly forbids it.

 

[MariaG]

hi, every one needs to get a statue of Mary and as many of the saints as possible. then send all day bowing down to them. oh, thank you catholic church for allowing us to prat to graven images, even though the bible expressly forbids it.

Yeah. And do you even care to learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches?

It is probably already too late, but if all you wish to do is mock what you think are the practices of the Catholic church you will be banned.

Maybe you should actually ask a question instead spewing the wrong information couched as sarcasm?

You are very ignorant of the teachings of the Catholic Church. You can choose to be respectful of us, or you will be banned. Note, you can challenge what you see as unbiblical beliefs, but this sarcasm which isn’t even reflective of our beliefs will get you banned quite quickly.

Peace,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

hi, every one needs to get a statue of Mary and as many of the saints as possible. then send all day bowing down to them. oh, thank you catholic church for allowing us to prat to graven images, even though the bible expressly forbids it.

I see now that you are also a liar as well as uncharitable.

originally posted by ironchefHi, im a new Catholic. the first thing that hits me is the limbo doctrine. if the Church said its true and taught it for centuries, how can they now say its not true. ?

You are not Catholic, and I doubt you are a Christian. Christians should do not bear false witness and you have bore false witness against Christ with your lies about the Catholic Church. A truly saved Chrsitian would never try to pass themselves off as something they are not.

May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[aaronjmagnan]

Limbo was not doctrine.

 

[NotWorthy]

Robert, if you’re still out there, I hope you’re having a wonderful weekend!!!

Here’s something I came across that may also help to explain my position.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: *

“The way of perfection passes by way of the cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle. Spiritual progress entails the ascesis [self-denial] and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes CCC# 2015

*Robert, you haven’t stated explicity that by “Faith Alone” are you saved, but your posts seem to indicate it. Here’s something I came across when reading up on Luther’s motives for his theology “break-out”. I think the author adequately confirms what I’ve been trying to say.

The problem with Luther’s position is that it denies free will. The English Catholic statesman, St. Sir Thomas Moore, who was a contemporary of Luther, in response to Luther’s teachings argued that as a result of this doctrine of total depravity* “the evil in the world is ascribed to God and not to His creatures.”* Scholar Gerard Wegemer writes that Thomas More observed: *“At the same time, the ‘one special thing’ they use to spice everything else is a doctrine of liberty that teaches that ‘having faith, they need nothing else.’” * Wegemer continues that Moore concluded Luther’s denial of free will “plainly sets forth all the world to wretched living.” Moore argued that if there is no “free will” and our actions are not within our own control there is no incentive to struggle against the temptation to sin. In addition, if our actions make no difference in the outcome of our salvation then why should we even care? St. Thomas More considered Luther’s denial of the doctrine of “free will” to be “the very worst and most mischievous heresy that was ever thought upon, and also the most mad.” *Thomas More: A Portrait of Courage, *Gerard Wegemer, Scepter, pages 123-25].

 

[guanophore]

This thread has been very helpful to me. I have family members who are evangelicals and you guys have brought up verses that I was not aware of yet. They are always debating me and anything that I can get to help them see the truth is a blessing. I pray that Robert is getting much out of this too. It is so evident in the New Testament that God expects us to avoid sin and repent.

Thanks and God Bless,
Jim

I don’t think so, Jim. Robert has been consistently resistant to anything of this kind:

Originally Posted by Robert902

I don’t profess to know everything, I do know Catholic doctrine very well. And I know that it contradicts the Biblical definition of salvation.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

I really don’t have the time to respond to each comment. Honestly I wish that I could. There has always been but two systems of religion in the world. One is God’s system of divine accomplishment and the other is man’s system of human achievement. One is the religion of faith, the other the religion of the flesh. One is the religion of the sincere heart and the internal, the other the religion of hypocrisy and the external. Within man’s system are thousands of religious forms and names, but they are all built on the achievements of man and the inspiration of satan. Christianity, on the other hand, is the religion of divine accomplishment, and it stands alone…

Many of you say that I am a follower of John Calvin or Martin Luther. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and if some of what He teaches me agrees with these men, then so be it.

Some of you tell me that it is by your achievements, and by your works that you are able to elevate yourself to some sort of higher spiritual rank where you can earn grace or mercy from God. Some of you even think, and have stated so here, that by working hard you someday will be able to stop sinning. You back up your philosophy by using scripture out of context.
Many of you think that you are somehow the epicenter of the gospel, and without all your effort and good works God would probably have a difficult time accomplishing His goal in your spiritual life; He actually needs your help.

The Bible say’s that our works are like “filthy rags.” The context is menstral rags. And you in your arrogance think that you have something to offer God that is good!!! The only thing that you have to offer to God is His Son’s death on the cross. But many of you feel that this act is somehow not quite sufficient. You need to add something!!

Many of you don’t think that Jesus died for your sins, otherwise you wouldn’t think that you will be judged for them again! God judged Jesus for your sins. So why in the world would you be judged again for them!!

You belong to organizations where they crucify Christ every Sunday. The death of Jesus is a finished work. Christ cannot die again because there is no more sacrifice for sin! You ignore scripture when it tells you that your [only] mediator is Jesus Christ. He is your mediator, because the Bible say’s so, and because He was the one who justified you in God’s eyes.

Ritual, ceremonial and sacramental Christianity has posed a serious threat to the authentic Biblical gospel. This type of church becomes a surrogate Christ, displacing the real Christ.
Many of you connect only to the institution (your church) through the mechanical works rather than to the living Christ. For you external ceremonies take the place of internal worship. The sacrament or ritual becomes the means of grace instead of symbols of grace. Your ministers become exalted intermediaries between people and God. You perform rituals for salvation, instead of humble servants who bring grace to save, sanctify and equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

Many of you think that you can lose your salvation. That’s because you falsely think that you need to work hard, and if you don’t do enough good works, God will take it (His free gift) away from you. John 5:24. “Most assuredly, I say to you he who believes my Word, and believes in Him who sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death unto life.”

I am not here to embarrass or humiliate anyone, and if I come across that way, I am truly sorry. I only ask that you will think about what I sincerely feel that the Holy Spirit has asked me to share with you today. All I ask is that you pray about this, and ask God to give you wisdom. I am not here to compete in some debate, but only to share what God has shared with me.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[NotWorthy]

All I ask of you Robert is to address the Scriptures I quoted. If your Assurance of Salvation is so rock solid, it should be able to address all Scriptures, for Scriptures can not contradict themselves.

 

[mikeledes]

Some of you tell me that it is by your achievements, and by your works that you are able to elevate yourself to some sort of higher spiritual rank where you can earn grace or mercy from God. Some of you even think, and have stated so here, that by working hard you someday will be able to stop sinning. You back up your philosophy by using scripture out of context.
Many of you think that you are somehow the epicenter of the gospel, and without all your effort and good works God would probably have a difficult time accomplishing His goal in your spiritual life; He actually needs your help.

All of this demosntrates, Robert, that you have not paid any attention to what we have said. Can you please point out where we have said we earn God’s grace and mercy? Especially since its been made quite clear that truly good works can only be a fruit of grace, that grace must precede any good work that pleases God.

Can you please point out where we have said that the Christian can stop sinning? The Catholic Church has never taught that we can live morally perfect lives for the rest of our Christian lives.

You talk about Scripture being taken out of context, but have not provided a reasonable alternative interpretation.

In order to live a Christian life, we need the grace of God. We need to be united to Christ. We have never said that God needs our help.

Before you continue this discussion, I would ask you to reread what we have said. Because what you have said about us bears no resemblance to what I or fellow Catholic posters have said.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[NotWorthy]

Can you please point out where we have said that the Christian can stop sinning? The Catholic Church has never taught that we can live morally perfect lives for the rest of our Christian lives.

Uhhhhhh, that might have been me. I’m constantly striving to get to where I can remain sinless. Is that a problem? I know the venial sins are going to keep popping up, but I was referring to the mortal sins. Does the Church teach that in no way are we going to be able to attain a state where we can remain sinless? I thought that, with the Grace of God (and ONLY with the Grace of God) could we hope to be able to get there, so to speak.

 

[mikeledes]

Uhhhhhh, that might have been me. I’m constantly striving to get to where I can remain sinless. Is that a problem? I know the venial sins are going to keep popping up, but I was referring to the mortal sins. Does the Church teach that in no way are we going to be able to attain a state where we can remain sinless? I thought that, with the Grace of God (and ONLY with the Grace of God) could we hope to be able to get there, so to speak.

The Church teaches that we are given sufficient grace to avoid mortal sins, but that avoiding venial sins is impossible. My goal, by the grace of God, is to die in a sin free state. In other words, I will try to avoid all occassions that will lead me into mortal sin. But if I commit mortal sin, I will repent and confess.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[happygal]

We are saved by works, hm…maybe should come after this sequence. We are saved by grace → faith → work. Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a on going one until we die…
Once we are saved by grace and eventually we will develop our faith with God and then we will have works like fruit of the spirit and then be like God love pple fervently, help the poor, have a compassion to heart to put others in front of us…blar…blar…

 

[pinoyjones]

Robert902, I think you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Yes Jesus did die once and for all andwe do not recrucify him during our services. It is a mystical reality where we go back to the crucifixion and all the rituals that we perform can be described by John in the book of Revelation. Jesus was not judged by God, rather he was God who came down to earth for our salvation. Through grace we are given the power to defeat the temptations of sin, but for now we all fail only to pick up ourselves tocontinue on the spiritual journey. Jesus was a good jew and the jewish religion is full of rituals and ceremonies that he participated in and enjoyed. Can it be too unbelievable that he created a new and everlasting covenant that contained rituals(a covenant is partially defined by the use of rituals. I hope you respond to this and the others that we can have a repectful and meaningful discussion.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Church teaches that we are given sufficient grace to avoid mortal sins, but that avoiding venial sins is impossible. My goal, by the grace of God, is to die in a sin free state. In other words, I will try to avoid all occassions that will lead me into mortal sin. But if I commit mortal sin, I will repent and confess.

God Bless,
Michael

OK, we’re cool. That’s what I was driving at.

 

[lak611]

We are saved by works, hm…maybe should come after this sequence. We are saved by grace → faith → work. Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a on going one until we die…
Once we are saved by grace and eventually we will develop our faith with God and then we will have works like fruit of the spirit and then be like God love pple fervently, help the poor, have a compassion to heart to put others in front of us…blar…blar…

You understand! This is true.

 

[NotWorthy]

OK, Robert, if you’re like me, you’re still popping in. It’s that train-wreck mentality that sometimes keeps me coming back.

Anyway, this will be my last post on this, unless you return to answer my earlier posts. But I came across these and it still looks like the member of the Church that remains in sin will be cut off:

• Romans 2:6-9: “For those who aimed for glory and honor and immortality by persevering in doing good, there will be eternal life; but for those who out of jealousy have taken for their guide not truth but injustice, there will be the fury of retribution.”
• Romans 11:22: “Remember God’s severity as well as his goodness; his severity to those who fell, and his goodness to you as long as you persevere in it; if not, you too will be cut off.”

 

[steppenwolf1218]

If you have no works your faith is dead and you may as well not have any faith because you aren’t saved. To think you will get over with claiming you have faith and then do nothing as a confirming result you are decieving yourself.

What types of works save us? All kinds actually because many things we do can prove we truly believe.

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise. But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Until people understand truly that the Grace of God is a state of being and not a thing, conversations like these are pointless. All too often we hold our hands out like a beggar to God without understanding what it means to us to accept the good gifts He gives us.