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KatholikosMercy
Guest
Maybe you can’t earn it. So is that any reason to not try your very best to deserve it?
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
Thanks.
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
Thats not what the doctrine of Justification says and I think you know that.
Your adding to the OP what isn’t there. Read the bible.
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
So then does faith become an act of the will after its a gift from the father to give us to Jesus? Of course it does.
If one looses faith and becomes completely agnostic or apostate then can it be said that it was never true faith. Thats preposterous. Why would God give anyone a false virtue? Its dependant on our will to have faith. Having faith in and of itself is sometimes a work.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
I think I’ll let you Catholics figure this one out on your own. Y’all argue amongst yourselves better than you do against us poor Protestants.
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a_priori
Guest
There’s nothing to figure out. “Faith without works is dead”.
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jack_hawkins
Guest
this is a long running debate strangely as it is a false opposition
the verse about faith without works being dead does not mean salvation by works, it is a comment on what faith really means
it is quite simple really
the verse about faith without works being dead does not mean salvation by works, it is a comment on what faith really means
it is quite simple really
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NotWorthy
Guest
No, you do Good Works because you love the Lord and you wish to Do the Will of the Father.
I used to do things as a child to please by parents. Is there much of a difference?
Maybe, you misunderstood my point “but you can sure blow it”. Our works won’t earn our Salvation. But they can help us to retain our Salvation, or the lack of good works can certainly cause us to lose our Salvation.
When I was hungry, you didn’t feed me. When I was naked, you didn’t clothe me…
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I don’t believe this; we agree on something (for a change) 
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AISI, both are important, but in different ways.Grace is the reason, the root, the cause, & the all in salvation - good works (not those of the Law) are the connatural fruit of faith. Someone with faith can (so to speak) not help “going about doing good” - he will do so as naturally as a rose brings forth its blossom. Not to do so, is unnatural - it’s a sort of abortion, because Christians are meant to be productive: this follows from their incorporation into Christ.
To be incorporated (= bodied into) into Christ, is to become a limb, a member, a body part, of Christ; & it makes no sense whatever for the holy & gracious Christ to have limbs on earth who don’t do His works; whether this means they are completely idle, or, live viciously. This is because Christians don’t belong to themselves, their bodies are not their own, they are meant to have the mind of Christ.
Because we are unable of ourselves to do the works of Christ, to have His mind, or to be incorporated into Him, we need a principle of life which will make us what we are not - & grace is that principle. It is grace that grafts us into the Vine Who is Christ - not works: grace is the source & life of our election, justification, & of all the other benefits we enjoy - our ability to bring forth good works follows upon our engrafting into Christ; it is not the ground of our engrafting, but one of its results.
ISTM that good works are contained in the life of grace; that they are not parallel with it, as a co-ordinate cause of salvation along with grace. If they were co-ordinate, that would mean that there were two unconnected causes of salvation: faith, &, works - which is the error the Galatians made. Works grow out of faith - if they do not, one is left looking for the reason they are good.
This is too long
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Elzee
Guest
Not according to Paul - love doesn’t always flow from faith. He says we can have faith but not love.
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KatholikosMercy
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NotWorthy
Guest
Why of course, I do (disagree)!!! What made you think I didn’t?
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okieflyer
Guest
I agree 100% but you’ve missed my point. I maybe should have been more clear.
If you can earn your way to heaven by works alone
Jesus dying on the cross would be the greatest tradgedy ever.
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
No one says you can earn you way to heaven on works alone.
This is an incredulous argument to the fullness of Justification that is used to deny any works at all or at the very least to (as you have) protest that works are even neccessary.
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okieflyer
Guest
KatholikosMercy please re-read my posts never have I as you put “protest that works are even neccessary.” Faith without works is dead…period. The Bible is very cut and dry on this topic.
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okieflyer
Guest
Ephesians Chpt 2
2:8. For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
2:9. Not of works, that no man may glory.
(Not of works… as of our own growth, or from ourselves; but as from the grace of God.)
2:8. For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
2:9. Not of works, that no man may glory.
(Not of works… as of our own growth, or from ourselves; but as from the grace of God.)
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cpayne
Guest
Faith and Works? Are you telling me that those of us who tend toward doubt and laziness are in deep trouble?
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okieflyer
Guest
I really do not wish to come accross confrontational as this only further divides the Church we should reconcile. You stated the following…
“…What types of works save us? All kinds actually because many things we do can prove we truly believe…”
Most posts are probably in reply to this sentance. They are basing it off of Ephesians 2:8 where the bible states “For by grace you are saved…” A very distinct contridiction to the Bible.
The second part of this sentance went on to say works are proof we believe (beliief=f having faith). Works or ie. our attitude, actions, deeds, compasion, etc. This is an acceptable statement since we are saved by grace through faith.
“…What types of works save us? All kinds actually because many things we do can prove we truly believe…”
Most posts are probably in reply to this sentance. They are basing it off of Ephesians 2:8 where the bible states “For by grace you are saved…” A very distinct contridiction to the Bible.
The second part of this sentance went on to say works are proof we believe (beliief=f having faith). Works or ie. our attitude, actions, deeds, compasion, etc. This is an acceptable statement since we are saved by grace through faith.
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
Jesus brings peace. He knows your heart and what your capable just as you do yourself.
You need to ask yourself those questions. A good indicator is what you would do when its not a struggle. Then after that, the Lord is Merciful and though we should never insult his mercy we should also do our best.
If you know that you tend toward unbelief and sloth then what are you doing about it? What you do with it is what counts.
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KatholikosMercy
Guest
Nope wrong:
James 2:
22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
If your willing to conceed that it takes both then so am I but not as long as your preaching a lie that misleads souls to damnation.
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
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