We ARE saved by Works.

[KatholikosMercy]

KatholikosMercy please re-read my posts never have I as you put “protest that works are even neccessary.” Faith without works is dead…period. The Bible is very cut and dry on this topic.

It insinuates and I can see that what I said can be read into your argument which makes it dangerous for the reasons I said.

If its not what you mean then you shouldn’t phrase it along the lines of the solas.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Why of course, I do (disagree)!!! What made you think I didn’t?

Perhaps I am so accustomed to incredulous protesting of anything I say or the Church teaches that I failed to give the benefit of the doubt.

I apologize for my cynicism. I don’t take the time to check the orthodoxy of what a poster believes in this thread as I expect non-Catholics to challenge the Church’s sound doctrine as that is the norm.

 

[okieflyer]

Faith and Works? Are you telling me that those of us who tend toward doubt and laziness are in deep trouble?

Only God can answer this questionby viewing your heart.
If you know the truth and you truly believe it has GREAT value to you and you will wish for ALL to come and know the Lord.
Do you have to work in a soup kitchen monday thru saturday? No
Works include simple thing as becoming friends with your neighbor, this opens a door later to lead him to Christ. Works may also include taking a stand for Christ in the work place As one’s faith grows thre grace of God does not change but your works life or desire to do works grows as well. If one sits back and says I belive (or have faith) and has no works his faith is dead. The Bible is clear on this in James 2:17.“So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.” He that believes in God but has no works really does not belive in God but believes “OF GOD” or in his existance only. To believe “IN GOD” you must believe in his existance AND teachings and his heart. For a new believer one can not expect great works imediately but those family and friend around him or her WILL notice differences in their life. As they grow in thier faith outward signs or works will apear and as works are performed it will add fuel to the fire of faith. What good is it to know 2+2=4 but never use it?

My father “believes” but attends no church and his actions or “works” do not always support this. He is the nicest guy you’d ever meet but I worry deeply since I do not know what only God knows

A Republican might believe the Democrat party exists but this does not mean he “believes in” the Democrats.

 

[teachccd]

If Jesus were sitting in a chair between a Catholic and a Protestant I believe that He would smile. Why? Because we both know that we are saved in His name and we both know that we must love one another. But here we are dueling amongst ourselves as to why…

Circular arguments sound like this:

Catholic: We are saved by Grace.

Protestant: We are saved by Grace.

Catholic: Grace is not earned it is a free gift.

Protestant: Grace is not earned it is a free gift.

Catholic: Faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

Protestant: Faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

Catholics: A saving faith includes love or it is merely a said faith.

Protestants: A saving faith produces good works or it is merely a
said faith.

Catholic: We are saved by faith filled with love.

Protestant: We are saved by faith that produces love.

Result: Catholics and Protestants believe in faith for salvation
obtained through grace. Catholics and Protestants
believe that we must love one another as commanded by
Christ. SO…

We both believe in faith and love and argue on how those essential virtues merit salvation… Jesus smiles.

 

[okieflyer]

Nope wrong:

James 2:

22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

If your willing to conceed that it takes both then so am I but not as long as your preaching a lie that misleads souls to damnation.

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

I do not wish to argue over this. It does take both but you replied “nope wrong” to a scripture direct word for word from the Catholic Cannon with it’s own foot notes.

 

[okieflyer]

If Jesus were sitting in a chair between a Catholic and a Protestant I believe that He would smile. Why? Because we both know that we are saved in His name and we both know that we must love one another. But here we are dueling amongst ourselves as to why…

Circular arguments sound like this:

Catholic: We are saved by Grace.

Protestant: We are saved by Grace.

Catholic: Grace is not earned it is a free gift.

Protestant: Grace is not earned it is a free gift.

Catholic: Faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

Protestant: Faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

Catholics: A saving faith includes love or it is merely a said faith.

Protestants: A saving faith produces good works or it is merely a
said faith.

Catholic: We are saved by faith filled with love.

Protestant: We are saved by faith that produces love.

Result: Catholics and Protestants believe in faith for salvation
obtained through grace. Catholics and Protestants
believe that we must love one another as commanded by
Christ. SO…

We both believe in faith and love and argue on how those essential virtues merit salvation… Jesus smiles.

Very true this type disscussion only brings division.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I do not wish to argue over this. It does take both but you replied “nope wrong” to a scripture direct word for word from the Catholic Cannon with it’s own foot notes.

Because you presented it incompletely. IF you believe its not Faith Alone then why present a partial truth against what you really believe? I don’t think you even sited that. IF its your intent to humiliate or ridicule me then nice try.

All I am denying is the false doctrine of Faith Alone yet I have encountered every other arguement there is.

To me the arguing amounts to nothing more than rhetoric and propganda to cover the purpose of saying the doctine of “Faith Alone” is wrong.

When all that needs to be said is: Faith Alone is a lie.

Can you say that?

Is it people just want to argue or protest for arguings sake? Perhaps the doctrine of Fatih Alone has infiltrated christian thought and made them more protesting and selfish than they had realized.

Check out John Salzas site for a completeness on Justification.
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

 

[SyCarl]

Faith alone is not a lie. Nobody denies that works are necessary. They are the proof of our faith. If we don’t have works then no one can know we have faith.

Jesus tells us that everything we can do is just obeying the commands we already are obligated to obey.

"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”
(Luke 17:9-10)

I know that Roman Catholics put great emphasis on the Epistle of James and its statement that we are not be saved by faith alone but they must be reconciled with Paul’s statements that we are not saved by works.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
(Romans 4:1-2)

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
(James 2:21)

These two passages would seem to contradict each other but we know Scripture cannot contradict itself so we must reconcile them. This can be done by considering the context of each passage. The Greek translated as justify means ‘declare righteous’ Paul is saying that Abraham’s works may have declared him just before men, but not before God. He is looking at it from God’s point of view. James is addressing how we as humans can tell a person who says he has faith really does. The context is made clear by another part of the passage.

Jas 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

.

He is talking about showing our faith to each other.

Our works are the evidence of our faith. They do not help us to merit salvation. We can never merit it. It is by Grace not works.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)

Paul makes it quite clear that we are saved for works, not by works. Works are the results or evidence of faith. Jesus tells us

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
(Matthew 7:15-18)

It is the tree that makes the fruit good, not the reverse.

We will be judged according to our works.

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. (Romans 2:5-8)

We will be judged according to our works so that God’s judgement will seen to be just. The works are the evidence that shows us God is righteous in how He judges. However, if we have the foundation of true faith, we will be saved even if our works are lacking.

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Consider a death bed repentance and baptism. Is the person who dies right after baptism not saved even though he has no works?

 

[dessert]

We are saved by faith not by works, but we say it is by grace through faith. Grace is the real cause, faith is just the means. It is like the pipe through which the water flows. It is not the water.
Everyone is given the grace but not all will have the faith.

It is actually the blood of Jesus that flows through the means of the Holy Spirit. Before there was faith their was grace and after there was faith there was works, works are the fruits of our faith and grace if no fruits we are not on the vine(Jesus). Dessert

**
“Be Jesus, Share Jesus” Blessed Mother Teresa**

 

[dessert]

Faith alone is not a lie. Nobody denies that works are necessary. They are the proof of our faith. If we don’t have works then no one can know we have faith.

Consider a death bed repentance and baptism. Is the person who dies right after baptism not saved even though he has no works?

 

[Robert902]

No, you do Good Works because you love the Lord and you wish to Do the Will of the Father.

I used to do things as a child to please by parents. Is there much of a difference?

Maybe, you misunderstood my point “but you can sure blow it”. Our works won’t earn our Salvation. But they can help us to retain our Salvation, or the lack of good works can certainly cause us to lose our Salvation.

When I was hungry, you didn’t feed me. When I was naked, you didn’t clothe me…

 

[The_Truthinator]

Do you believe that the Bible makes a distinction between works of the law and good works (faith working in love)?

Without being too theologically dense (I’m very tired and have a paper to finish), I think that the Spirit is received via faith. I believe the Spirit produces fruit … I think there’s a difference between trying to flawlessly obey the law and its decrees (being in very nature flawed and lacking the Spirit) and simply letting the Spirit (which we have received) work and produce fruit, which comes by submission to his will.

What’s your view concerning imputed versus infused righteousness?

I believe we are made into new creations and are free from our obligation to our old sinful selves, yet also I know that here on earth we are being made righteous but as of yet have not reached total sanctification, have not been made “perfect,” or free from sin … Purification, what you know as purgatory, will occur after death …

Once Saved, Always Saved?

As Peter acknowledges, just as a dog returns to its vomit and a washed pig to the mud, so can we believers become enslaved to sin again (Paul confirms this, as well). What’s more, Paul in his letter to the Galatians is pretty blatant about falling from grace—it’s possible. And in Romans he warns the Gentile believers not to become cocky in their opinion of themselves

 

[okieflyer]

SyCarl;2245231:

Faith alone is not a lie. Nobody denies that works are necessary. They are the proof of our faith. If we don’t have works then no one can know we have faith.

The fruit of this is repentance and if he is conscieous enough to make a confession that is a work and if he speaks of his belief to another that is a fruit too and a work and his faith leads him to the grace and forgiveness of God. Because he has acted on it which is a work .Dessert

Agreed! It’s not just at the soup kitchen where works happen!

 

[Robert902]

No, you do Good Works because you love the Lord and you wish to Do the Will of the Father.

I used to do things as a child to please by parents. Is there much of a difference?

Maybe, you misunderstood my point “but you can sure blow it”. Our works won’t earn our Salvation. But they can help us to retain our Salvation, or the lack of good works can certainly cause us to lose our Salvation.

There are some scriptures that seem to disagree with this notion that we can “blow it”.

Eph 1:4-5 says that “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.”

Romans 8:29 " For whom He foreknew, these He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

John 10:28-29 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of my fathers hand.”

Here’s the list what God has given and promised us;

1. He chose us.
2. He predestined our adoption.
3. He predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son.
4. He called us.
5. He justified us.
6. He has given us eternal life.
7. He glorified us.
8. No one can “snatch” us out of our Fathers hand.

I just don’t understand why this teaching of not being able to lose your salvation bothers so many Christians.

God Bless,
Robert

]

 

[teachccd]

Very true this type disscussion only brings division.

“And Jesus wept.” John 11:35

 

[NotWorthy]

Robert, the most accurate statement in your post is:

There are some scriptures that **seem **to disagree with this notion that we can “blow it”.

They may seem to disagree, but they don’t.

Try reading John 15 one more time:

*** If you keep my commandments**, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.*

These are people that have acquired Everlasting Life for they have just received the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ at the Last Supper. And yet, they may not remain in Him.

To these same people, Jesus says 3-4 verses later:

It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.

So the people that Jesus chose (pre-destined in your opinion, but actually double pre-destination is what you are preaching for we all our pre-destined to go to Heaven) still have to remain in his commandments.

There’s so much more to your post that is incomplete or inconsistent with 2000 years of Christian teaching, but its late and I’m going to bed shortly.

 

[teachccd]

I just don’t understand why this teaching of not being able to lose your salvation bothers so many Christians.

God Bless,
Robert

]

Because it takes away my free will to reject God. The same free will that allows me to accept Him…teachccd

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I just don’t understand why this teaching of not being able to lose your salvation bothers so many Christians.

God Bless,
Robert

]

Because it was invented by ONE man. No Church had anything to do with the idea. Thus its heresy.

And no, John Calvin or Martin Luther aren’t heads of churches and they have no authority to create one on thier own.

Only Jesus did and has that authority.

He created one that they didn’t like.

Protesters can claim that Jesus is the head of their church but its really the Protester whos false teaching it was founded on.

Subversion from satan himself.

 

[VociMike]

If we are to believe that the man dying is not saved, then tell me how much time doing works is required for salvation.

To which I always reply “How much faith is required for salvation?”

But leaving aside dying men and focusing on the rest of us (that is, the vast majority of Christians), let me ask a question I have asked before, and have trouble getting a straight answer to. Do you believe that you (not a dying man, but you) can be saved without any attempt at performing works of love?

I know I don’t believe that of myself.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

To which I always reply “How much faith is required for salvation?”

But leaving aside dying men and focusing on the rest of us (that is, the vast majority of Christians), let me ask a question I have asked before, and have trouble getting a straight answer to. Do you believe that you (not a dying man, but you) can be saved without any attempt at performing works of love?

I know I don’t believe that of myself.

Didn’t Jesus say he would say “depart from me for I do not know you?”