We ARE saved by Works.

[NotWorthy]

OK, that’s good. You’re finally coming around by showing that Jesus will take us away if we do not bear fruit. You’re learning Robert!!!

I am learning. But Jesus will not take away His gift of salvation, because of our works, or lack of works. “Ye are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.” The work of salvation was done by Jesus on the cross.
I’m not saying that works aren’t important. They are, and God will reward us for the things that we have done in His name.

Now, just keep reading John 15. to continue this thought.

Jesus again shows that You can be part of the vine, but you will be cut off if you do not remain in His Love. Your actions can cut you off.

This is talking about our fruit bearing, the product of our salvation. It is not talking about how we are to be saved!
A branch that is not abiding in Christ “is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” This is is amplified by 1 Cor 3:15: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.”

God Bless,
RobertRobert, please PLEASE learn how to do the quotes. I want to address as much of your posts as I can, but it’s hard to differentiate your points.

Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.

This is talking about our fruit bearing, the product of our salvation. It is not talking about how we are to be saved!
A branch that is not abiding in Christ “is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” This is is amplified by 1 Cor 3:15: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.”

So, when Jesus says “Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither”, He means “our works”, not “Us”? Why doesn’t Jesus say that?

Our you sure this is sound exegesis?

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy;2267831:

I DON’T KNOW!!! ASK HIM!!!

When Jesus talks of our judgment, he bases it on our actions. I’ve asked you numerous times to show where He claims any other judgment, then our actions. You can’t provide it.

I’m sorry that you are stuck in this theology, “Trust Jesus, but don’t believe in HIs words”.

So, are you really saying that God gave the keys to [only] Peter?? And what actually were those keys?

God Bless,
Robert

I only read where God gave the keys only to Peter. Even though I’m not stuck in Sola Scriptura, it’s easy to see that the keys were given only to Peter.

What are the keys? All throughout the ancient world, the keys represent authority. In this case, Christ the King, is giving his Prime Minister, Peter, the keys to the kingdom until His Second Coming.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have provided it, and I’ve answered this same question numerous times!

Read Romans 5:1-11 "Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into His grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character, and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

No, you haven’t answered it, even once.

When I ask you to show where Jesus states something, you respond with something Paul wrote. I’m asking you, for the last time Robert, Jesus talks about our judgment numerous times throughout four gospels. He bases our judgment on certain things.

Now, tell me where JESUS states that our judgment is based on something other than our works. It’s an easy question, and you avoid it by turning to Paul in Romans. When I ask for a statement made by Paul regarding our judgment, you will be the first one I ask, for you are an expert on Paul’s writings. Now, I’m asking to be an expert on Jesus’ teachings.

 

[Robert902]

So, when Jesus says “Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither”, He means “our works”, not “Us”? Why doesn’t Jesus say that?

He does say that. What does a vine do? It is supposed to bear fruit. If it doesn’t bear fruit, it is pruned, and the branches are burned. Notice the term wither, that’s what happens to us as Christians when we are not producing fruit. If He was talking about eternal damnation, the term wither would be inappropriate. This passage has nothing to do with our salvation.

 

[Robert902]

I am learning. But Jesus will not take away His gift of salvation, because of our works, or lack of works. “Ye are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.” The work of salvation was done by Jesus on the cross.
I’m not saying that works aren’t important. They are, and God will reward us for the things that we have done in His name.

Now, just keep reading John 15. to continue this thought.

Jesus again shows that You can be part of the vine, but you will be cut off if you do not remain in His Love. Your actions can cut you off.

This is talking about our fruit bearing, the product of our salvation. It is not talking about how we are to be saved!
A branch that is not abiding in Christ “is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” This is is amplified by 1 Cor 3:15: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.”

God Bless,
RobertRobert, please PLEASE learn how to do the quotes. I want to address as much of your posts as I can, but it’s hard to differentiate your points.

So, when Jesus says “Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither”, He means “our works”, not “Us”? Why doesn’t Jesus say that?

He does say that. What is a vine supposed to do? Bear fruit. And it is pruned, if it isn’t bearing good fruit. Also, notice the word wither. If He were talking about eternal damnation, the word wither would be inappropriate. As a Christian, if we are not bearing fruit, we will wither away spiritually.

Our you sure this is sound exegesis?

Yes. This passage makes no sense if you think that it applies to our salvation.

God Bless,
Robert

PS…I’m not sure how to use quotes. I’d appreciate your help.

 

[Robert902]

Robert902;2270111:

I only read where God gave the keys only to Peter. Even though I’m not stuck in Sola Scriptura, it’s easy to see that the keys were given only to Peter.

What are the keys? All throughout the ancient world, the keys represent authority. In this case, Christ the King, is giving his Prime Minister, Peter, the keys to the kingdom until His Second Coming.

Correct, a key is a symbol of power and authority (Isa. 22:22; Rev. 3:7). The keys given to Peter (Matt.16:19) represent the divine authority granted to him to open the gospel of grace to Jews at Pentecost (Acts 2:37-40), to radically mongrel samaritans (Acts 8:14-17), and to pure Gentiles in the house of Cornelius (Acts 10:34-38).
There was no other assumption of authority by Peter (Acts 15:7-11).
Today, you and I have the keys, in that we can share the Gospel with our friends and family who don’t know Jesus. That’s the Great Commission! What good would it do if God only gave one person that ability?

God Bless,
Robert

 

[NotWorthy]

This is talking about our fruit bearing, the product of our salvation. It is not talking about how we are to be saved!
A branch that is not abiding in Christ “is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” This is is amplified by 1 Cor 3:15: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.”

I’m going to address this more later, but you are taking two completely different contexts, and linking them with the phrase “branch”. Paul is talking about Purgatory, while Jesus is talking about Salvation. I am the vine, you are the branches. Jesus sets up the scenario and follows through with these brances will be thrown out and burned. Our works are not the branches at all in this context.

In Paul’s letters, he’s talking about our works. Some are good, made of gold and silver. Some are not, made of wood and hay, these are the things we may have done for selfish reasons, that only look holy. (“Look at me, I gave $1000 to charity” BTW, that’s my opinion of wood and hay). This purify fire is purgatory that burns the lesser deads and purifies the deeds that were God’s Will.

PS…I’m not sure how to use quotes. I’d appreciate your help.

PS, what you want in the quote box, start with q u o t e ] (leave out the spaces, of course) and end with / q u o t e ] , then simply start the whole process again. Good Luck!

Also, hit preview post to see how it’s going to look before ou save and post.

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy;2270330:

Correct, a key is a symbol of power and authority (Isa. 22:22; Rev. 3:7). The keys given to Peter (Matt.16:19) represent the divine authority granted to him to open the gospel of grace to Jews at Pentecost (Acts 2:37-40), to radically mongrel samaritans (Acts 8:14-17), and to pure Gentiles in the house of Cornelius (Acts 10:34-38).
There was no other assumption of authority by Peter (Acts 15:7-11).
Today, you and I have the keys, in that we can share the Gospel with our friends and family who don’t know Jesus. That’s the Great Commission! What good would it do if God only gave one person that ability?

God Bless,
Robert

Except if you see that the keys have already been used in this same context in Isaiah 22, as in other kingdoms in the ancient world. The Keys denote the authority to run the kingdom in the absence of the king.

Just as well the “binding and loosing”. This was an authority that the Pharisees had in Jesus’ time. They could make rules, they could rescind rules. This is the role of the Papacy, a role that has helped keep the Catholic Church together for 2000 years, with only a few breakaways. Why the breakaways? Failure to recognize the authority of the Pope.

 

[NotWorthy]

Robert, here’s another little diddy by Paul, I thought you might like to see. Notice Paul is addressing those within the Church, not without.

St. Paul writing to the Church at Corinth concerning problems with sexual immorality within the community advised: "I have written to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you**"** 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. In this Corinthians passage Paul is addressing our responsibility to judge sins within the Covenant family.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Nope wrong:

James 2:

22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

If your willing to conceed that it takes both then so am I but not as long as your preaching a lie that misleads souls to damnation.

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

Are you saying that St. Paul is wrong ?​

If so - how do you tell that he is wrong, rather than James ? ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I think how the term “earn” is used falsely in regard to works/justification/salvation is an example of how protestants use an incomplete truth to negate its fullness. As all the “solas” do.

In fact there is no truth within protestantism that has not been taken from the true church.

The Church would be a dungheap but for Christ. In fact, it would not even be that - it would not so much as exist, so it could not even be a dungheap. But for Him, its sins would have destroyed it long ago​

It is worthless, & less than worthless, without Christ, His Death, His Blood, His Cross, His Merits, His Mercy, His Grace, His Righteousness.

The same is true of everything in creation, bar nothing - to say otherwise, is to say that Christ is not the Lord of all creatures.

This continual sniping at Protestantism is doing a very good job of showing the Church in the worst possible light.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

The Church would be a dungheap but for Christ. In fact, it would not even be that - it would not so much as exist, so it could not even be a dungheap. But for Him, its sins would have destroyed it long ago​

It is worthless, & less than worthless, without Christ, His Death, His Blood, His Cross, His Merits, His Mercy, His Grace, His Righteousness.

The same is true of everything in creation, bar nothing - to say otherwise, is to say that Christ is not the Lord of all creatures.

Impossible to disagree with.

This continual sniping at Protestantism is doing a very good job of showing the Church in the worst possible light.

Its not sniping. The truth must be spoken for the edification of the faithful. I will not sugar coat it to appease false teachings of those who do not see the Church in a favorable light. The Churches teachings aren’t going to change because of Protest.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Are you saying that St. Paul is wrong ?​

If so - how do you tell that he is wrong, rather than James ? ?

No, scripture is infallible and never truely conflicts.

What I am saying is that your understanding and context of what Paul says is incorrect.

 

[whatevergirl]

I have always looked at it this way…If I say I love my husband, but do not show him through my actions…do I really love him? If I cheat on him, but then say I love him…will he believe me? Simply put, if we love our Lord…we first, profess that…but then we must show this love through our actions. By witnessing…being charitable…by loving others…by following the 10 Commandments…these, are all actually ‘works.’

 

[Robert902]

No, you haven’t answered it, even once.

When I ask you to show where Jesus states something, you respond with something Paul wrote. I’m asking you, for the last time Robert, Jesus talks about our judgment numerous times throughout four gospels. He bases our judgment on certain things.

 

[NotWorthy]

Robert, I knew you couldn’t come up with one, because there isn’t one. Yes, Paul speaks of our Salvation, but I go to Jesus first, and then reconcile Paul’s teachings with Jesus’ context. You can’t deny what Christ says, no matter what it looks like Paul is saying. Period. If the two seem to contradict, then you look at one through the lense of the other.

Mt.16:27 - For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

Mt. 25:34-36 - ***Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ***For (notice the “For”, Robert, it describes WHY the Sheep will inherit the kingdom) I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.

Luke 14:13-14 - ***Rather, when you hold a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind; blessed indeed will you be because of their inability to repay you. For *you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

I could continue if you’d like?

 

[biblebeliver]

Luke23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ( All I can say what work did the malefactor do he just had FAITH he called Jesus God and Lord )

 

[biblebeliver]

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
No Work Here!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Tim 3:16-17.

The Holy Bible was written by more than 40 human authors inspired by the Holy Spirit over a period of about 14 to 18 centuries. The word inspired in Greek is Theopneustos which means “God breathed.” The Apostle Peter wrote that holy men composed the Books of the Bible as they were “moved” by the Holy Spirit. Also the Apostle Paul wrote to his student Timothy that all scripture was given by inspiration of God. The authors of the Bible wrote spontaneously using their own minds and experiences while influenced and directed by God.

Paul, the great Apostle to the Gentiles, was one of the great men of the Bible. He became transformed from a rabid persecutor of Christianity to the world’s greatest expositor of Christ. He was both a missionary of the cross and the writer of 13 of the New Testament Epistles. The spread of Christianity to Europe and the western world is due in large part to the zeal and labors of this mighty herald of the cross.
So, Paul has the authority to speak for Jesus, after all he was one of the Apostles. In conclusion, if you want to exclude my using Paul from my references, I really think that we are both wasting our time here.

God Bless,
Robert

Dear Robert, I do understand that all Scripture is God-breathed. I’ve spent a decent amount of time studying the Scriptures (Oh, the horror, a Catholic who studies Scriptures, that must be the 7th sign!!!) and I love Paul’s writings. You would be absolutely amazed at how much of the Catholic Church’s doctrines are built around Paul’s writings. So I appreciate your efforts. I’ll deal with your next part next.

When you say judged, what judgement are you talking about? The judgement where God rewards us for what we did in His name (Rev. 22:12), the judgement of the nations (Matt 25:32-46), or the Great White Throne Judgement (Rev. 20:11)?
I think possibly you are equating judgement with salvation. Christians will not be judged for their sins, but they will be judged for their works, and rewarded for what they have done in the name of Christ.

God Bless,
Robert

“Christians will not be judged by their sins” is one of the worst heresies the Protestant Reformation has brought about.

Jesus makes it clear, and St. Paul reaffirms it. If you wish your sins to be forgiven, you had better forgive your brothers. Jesus even gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins and the power to retain sins.

Please don’t wrap yourself in the “Assurance of Salvation” blanket and expect that to get you to heaven. It goes against Jesus and St. Paul’s teachings, and it goes against the entire history of the Church Jesus founded.

 

[NotWorthy]

Luke23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ( All I can say what work did the malefactor do he just had FAITH he called Jesus God and Lord )

All things are possible with God. Did you notice the thief didn’t say the sinner’s prayer either.

Jesus can make any exceptions to His rules that He wishes (except, of course, if it means sinning), but He doesn’t promise the rest of us, “if you have this faith while hanging on the Cross with Me, I’ll save you, too”. Instead, He leaves us a Church, tells them to baptize all the nations, teaching them all that I have taught you. He also makes it clear that He is giving His new Church all the authority that God gave to Him.

I don’t see myself hanging on the Cross in the near future, so I’m going to stick with the guidelines He set up with His Bride, the Church.