We ARE saved by Works.

[justacloserwalk]

Our works do not precede us into heaven, we are saved by grace through faith…but as believers in Christ we will have works that validate our faith. What we truly believe in we live out.

People write on rocks or in restrooms to let the world know they were there. Our lives and how we live them do the same thing. We are letting the world know we believe in Jesus Christ by our “works”

God sees our heart and knows everything, including why we do good works. We can fool the world but we can not fool God.

Barbara

 

[jfallaw]

We are saved by grace not works. Grace empowers us to have faith, and our faith lead us to do good works… it is grace that saves us. Not works, not faith alone. Grace Only period. God’s grace.

Amen to that. If we were saved by works, then Jesus didn’t need to be a perfect sacrifice for us. I agree though that faith alone doesn’t save us. Sorry, Sunday Christians (protestants)!

 

[justacloserwalk]

Amen to that. If we were saved by works, then Jesus didn’t need to be a perfect sacrifice for us. I agree though that faith alone doesn’t save us. Sorry, Sunday Christians (protestants)!

Why would you say a Protestant is a “Sunday Christian” ? That sounds judgemental to me…only God can judge a heart and know if the person is 24/7 or 24/24.
Are you implying you have that divine ability?

I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved…
To me that is 24/7, not once a week.
"riginally Posted by Mannyfit75
We are saved by grace not works. Grace empowers us to have faith, and our faith lead us to do good works… it is grace that saves us. Not works, not faith alone. Grace Only period. God’s grace.+

It is out of faith and obedience we respond to the Grace that God extends to us. It is out of love and a grateful heart we submit our will and lives to the greater purposes of God…living out what we profess to believe.

If it ain’t seen in a life…somewhere…then maybe it ain’t there.

Barbara

 

[jfallaw]

Why would you say a Protestant is a “Sunday Christian” ? That sounds judgemental to me…only God can judge a heart and know if the person is 24/7 or 24/24.
Are you implying you have that divine ability?

I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved…
To me that is 24/7, not once a week.

Maybe I step over the line in using the word “Protestant” to describe the non-denominational, evangelical churches I am used to. At those churches, I have honestly not met a single person who is the same person outside of church as they are inside it. Even the staff (I was on staff at my last one, so I know even the pastors very well). Perhaps it’s not right to groups them all under one brand name, as there are tens of thousands of sects, each with their shades of christianity.

 

[justacloserwalk]

Maybe I step over the line in using the word “Protestant” to describe the non-denominational, evangelical churches I am used to. At those churches, I have honestly not met a single person who is the same person outside of church as they are inside it. Even the staff (I was on staff at my last one, so I know even the pastors very well). Perhaps it’s not right to groups them all under one brand name, as there are tens of thousands of sects, each with their shades of christianity.

I hear you there! Not everyone is “what you see is what you get” and this is true in all denominations…including the Catholic Church.

We have to keep our eyes on Jesus Chrits and off of everyone else…because, well…this sounds oversimplified…we are human and we sin.

I had a friend comment on how terrible she thought the sexual abuse scandals were in the Catholic Church…and I immediately said “I know what your church(at one time the one I attended) did with covering up a child being molested by a Sunday School teacher…WHAT is the difference”?

She became very quite… if she thinks one religion has the market on cover ups…then I have a bridge I would like to sell her…

No matter what “flavor” we are (Church affiliation)
…if we claim the name of Jesus Christ then we are bound by the command to “Love one another”

I heard something that changed how I view “love”…look at the person you least like…the person you can barely tolerate…that is the degree to which you REALLY love the Lord.

Without love we are no different from the rest of the world.

Barbara

 

[DiscernVoc]

I hear you there! Not everyone is “what you see is what you get” and this is true in all denominations…including the Catholic Church.

We have to keep our eyes on Jesus Chrits and off of everyone else…because, well…this sounds oversimplified…we are human and we sin.

I had a friend comment on how terrible she thought the sexual abuse scandals were in the Catholic Church…and I immediately said “I know what your church(at one time the one I attended) did with covering up a child being molested by a Sunday School teacher…WHAT is the difference”?

She became very quite… if she thinks one religion has the market on cover ups…then I have a bridge I would like to sell her…

No matter what “flavor” we are (Church affiliation)
…if we claim the name of Jesus Christ then we are bound by the command to “Love one another”

**heard something that changed how I view “love”…look at the person I you least like…the person you can barely tolerate…that is the degree to which you REALLY love the Lord.**Without love we are no different from the rest of the world.

Barbara

As I am a Catholic, I am sure we disagree on many fundamental issues regarding theology, but this statement is incredibly profound. It gets to the heart of what being a Christian is all about.

 

[mikeledes]

I hear you there! Not everyone is “what you see is what you get” and this is true in all denominations…including the Catholic Church.

We have to keep our eyes on Jesus Chrits and off of everyone else…because, well…this sounds oversimplified…we are human and we sin.

I had a friend comment on how terrible she thought the sexual abuse scandals were in the Catholic Church…and I immediately said “I know what your church(at one time the one I attended) did with covering up a child being molested by a Sunday School teacher…WHAT is the difference”?

She became very quite… if she thinks one religion has the market on cover ups…then I have a bridge I would like to sell her…

No matter what “flavor” we are (Church affiliation)
…if we claim the name of Jesus Christ then we are bound by the command to “Love one another”

I heard something that changed how I view “love”…look at the person you least like…the person you can barely tolerate…that is the degree to which you REALLY love the Lord.

Without love we are no different from the rest of the world.

Barbara

Beautifully said. And as a Catholic, I’m not even supposed to agree with you. So why am I writing this post? This cannot happen again. It’s unnatural. You must cease writing posts like this one.



God Bless,
Michael

 

[justacloserwalk]

Beautifully said. And as a Catholic, I’m not even supposed to agree with you. So why am I writing this post? This cannot happen again. It’s unnatural. You must cease writing posts like this one.



God Bless,
Michael

I believe everything in the Apostles Creed.
I believe what Jesus said to do, what the Epistles say to do.
There is no new revelation from God.
Denominational lines were created by man, not by God.
The unity that exists (you seeing truth in what I said) is the Holy Spirit saying YES this is the truth.

My thinking started to change about the Catholic church when my hispanic neighbor started witnessing to me.
I kniew what he was doing…and I was struck by the fact he was concerned about my immortal soul…as I had been for his…the irony in this didn’t escape me.

The bottom line is…you are going to go to heaven because of the same Jesus I know…and because we responded to what we heard.

I hate the term prostestant because I am not protesting a thing. Maybe “Separated Bretheren” (sp) is a better term.

I am a Christian, you are a Christian. We attend different churches. We will one day be part of the “great cloud of witnesses”

Do you think that when we are in the prescence of God we are going to sit and bicker? Or say hateful things about each other?

If I may take a little license, no disprect intended to our Lord (meaning presumption)
I think we are going to be totally dazzled by the sheer magnitude and holiness of God…so much so that NO ONE is going to point and stare or say “neener neener I was right and you were wrong”

I am angry at people in my own denomination for being mean and ugly to people who are trusting in the SAME Jesus for their salvation.

And, you guys have the same jerks on your side of the fence. I get angry when anyone slams a member of the “family” because that is what we are and if we acted like it the world would be changed.

I would be the first one to point out the errors Prostestants have. Surprise you?
There is alot of ignorance on both sides.

For the record…the BEST Easter I EVER had was the one where I went Thurs night, Friday and Sat night to the Catholic Church my friend attended.

I decided to contemplate the incarnation of our Lord… It blows my socks off…to think that the CREATOR of everything. …the One that holds everything together(look in Col) came to spend 9 months inside His CREATION…

It ain’t us against one another…it is US against the world, the flesh and the devil.

You aren’t agreeing with me…you are recognizing your “blood sister” just as I recognize who you are.

Love in Christ
Barbara

 

[MotherNoRest]

No, we are NOT saved by works. Stop feeding the ignorance of people. We are saved by Jesus Christ and that salvation is undeserved. We work BECAUSE of our faith.

Then why did Jesus waste his time teaching us how to act as good Christians and how to be his disciples? He spent ALOT of time on the HOWS of being a good disciple. Seems then, if it is faith only, he didn’t need to bother.

Why did he go on and on about parables about those who would be cast out - who are those who would say “Lord, Lord” and still not make it in? Why do we need the 10 commandments?

It is absurd to think that good works are an automatic result - almost robotic it sounds - of faith. If that is so, then you must have never struggled with any kind of sin - you’ve never had a bad day, a crabby moment, nothing. And all since you have faith.

 

[justacloserwalk]

Then why did Jesus waste his time teaching us how to act as good Christians and how to be his disciples? He spent ALOT of time on the HOWS of being a good disciple. Seems then, if it is faith only, he didn’t need to bother.

Why did he go on and on about parables about those who would be cast out - who are those who would say “Lord, Lord” and still not make it in? Why do we need the 10 commandments?

It is absurd to think that good works are an automatic result - almost robotic it sounds - of faith. If that is so, then you must have never struggled with any kind of sin - you’ve never had a bad day, a crabby moment, nothing. And all since you have faith.

I think Jesus taught on all those things so we would know when we don’t “measure” up. aka:sin.

Without faith it is impossiible to please God so I would rethink the last comment you made about faith if I were you.

When I sin, I repent. Isn’t that what you do? Some days I do better at the Christian walk than others. Sigh. Thank the Lord, His mercies are new every morning.

My works trail behind me, they don’t precede me. You can not have true saving faith without works.

Faith starts in the heart, as a result of God’s grace. I heard the call and responded. I believe when you were confirmed you were agreeing that you believed…for yourself. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think our job is to stay prayed up and repented up and focus on loving Jesus…every day.

In Christ,
Barbara

 

[MotherNoRest]

I think Jesus taught on all those things so we would know when we don’t “measure” up. aka:sin.

Without faith it is impossiible to please God so I would rethink the last comment you made about faith if I were you.

When I sin, I repent. Isn’t that what you do? Some days I do better at the Christian walk than others. Sigh. Thank the Lord, His mercies are new every morning.

In Christ,
Barbara

Hi Barbara,
Jesus just taught on all those things so we would know when we don’t measure up? But we’re already saved. And works follow from being saved. Or perhaps what you mean is that we WANT works to flow once we are saved, but as Paul says ‘we do what we do not want and we do not do as we want.’ Now this makes sense. Once we have faith, we MUST then persevere in good works even when we don’t want to. This is what sifts the sheep from the goats - NOT the belief in Christ as savior. The belief in Christ as Savior leads us to understand the need to follow him with our lives.

Jesus knew how hard it would be and so he ‘encouraged’ us with ideas of heavenly rewards, peace that surpasses all understanding and also the threat of eternal punishment. Yes, even those who say they believe that Christ died for our sins may find themselves in Hell at the end. If we do not persevere in our good works and prayer, we won’t make it.

Why do I need to rethink my statement on faith? I am not stating anything. I am trying to understand what those who “reject a works doctrine” believe. It seems to me that what these people believe is that once we have faith, we will automatically do good works. Well, most of the time or at least part of the time. If we don’t, we’ll repent. See how confusing it is.

Of course I thoroughly agree with the third line above. Nothing to disagree with there. But apparently you repent out of duty to Christ, because he asked us to and I repent to increase in me sanctifying grace, to help me to avoid further and greater sin and to dispose me to continue to do more good works (and thus avoid losing my salvation).

There’s a little more motivation to repent if you are repenting because of my reasons. That’s just human nature and God knows that. Correct me if I misunderstand what you are saying.

 

[justacloserwalk]

"I repent to increase in me sanctifying grace, to help me to avoid further and greater sin and to dispose me to continue to do more good works"

I don’t give it as much thought as you do. I just don’t like how I feel walking around with sin in my life.
I wonder how many think this through? Sin breaks fellowship and I am not happy when I am not in fellowship with the Lord…and NO ONE else is(those that live with me)

"It seems to me that what these people believe is that once we have faith, we will automatically do good works. Well, most of the time or at least part of the time. If we don’t, we’ll repent. See how confusing it is. "

I do see what you are getting at. I think we grow in maturity and as we learn what we are to do we do it.
Perhaps it has been oversimplified.
I did have to grow in knowledge and understanding,
and my actions reflected that. When you are growing as a child, you don’t see it yourself but your Mother sure does…your clothing is too small!

As I mature in Christ, in Sanctifying Grace…I outgrow some actions and grow into others. I don’t know if I am expressing myself very well.
The more I focus on the Lord, the more predisposed I am to spend more time with Him and I want to serve Him more.

I try to keep it simple. I don’t focus on “if I don’t repent I will “lose” salvation or sanctifying grace” my focus is on Jesus (I am sure yours is as well) and the rest follows.
I heard this described as “spiritual breathing” if that makes any sense.
I don’t think we are concious of our Spriitual growth anymore than we were when we were growing physically-lol-or gaining weight.
A closet full of clothing I can’t wear lets me know I have either gained or lost weight.
When I speak of my works trailing behind me I am talking about as I grow spiritually, my “good works” grow.
The firt time I didn’t jerk some lady up by the neck and do what I wanted to do I knew I had reached another level of maturity. No, I would not have done this (jerked her up lol) but I would have felt like it and the way I would have responded to her would have been a verbal “Jerk by the neck”
Am I making any sense?
I could not have forced that type of growth. It was a natural by product of a walk that is growing in sanctifying grace.
I hope I explained this better.
Barbara

 

[justacloserwalk]

This is from the RC pov:
WHAT part do good works play in our salvation? Many Christians, especially Evangelicals, say they play no part, but the Catholic Church teaches that they do have a role. At the same time the Church warns against the idea that we “earn” our salvation through good works. Both errors can be avoided by paying close attention to Scripture.
“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16-17).

“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21).

“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2-8).

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4-6).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10).

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12-13).

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:14-24).

This is good enough for me. How it is worked out in my life and in your life might look alittle different though. I think the end result is the same.
Barbara

 

[NotWorthy]

justacloserwalk,

How is it that you understand Catholic’s views on Salvation and Works - “You can’t earn Salvation, but you can sure blow it” - but other Non-Catholics still cling to the false accusation that Catholics teach that we earn our way into heaven?

 

[justacloserwalk]

Everyone is afraid to look into what is being taught for themselves.
Theologians soiund theological and sometimes
translating what they are saying and reducing it into the “bottom line” takes a bit of work.

You have to know what you believe to begin with and then trust the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth.

Most people recognize “it” true saving faith lived out (works) when they see it. You know the old saying “it takes one to know one”?

No one on either side of the “family” ever doubted who Mother Theresa believed in as her Savior and Lord.

Our lives speak much more about what we really believe because what we believe we will live out. Some days it looks better for me than others.

Barbara

 

[justacloserwalk]

You may have heard the (correct me if I get the office he holds incorrectly) Bishop of New Orleans say that “God did not cause this but He allowed it”
I would have loved to heard the rest of what he said because that is how I have always been taught.

The awful things that happen are not caused by God but are allowed…and will be used for our good.
The hard part is in waiting for the good to be revealed in our life. AND that good is for our spiritual good not necessarily our material good.

My idea (in my flesh-the human side of mee) of good is winning the lottery. God’s idea of good is my spiritual growth, my character to be perfected.

My holiness, not my happiness is what matters most. That is what Billy Graham has said many times.

And I think there are many spiritual “Giants” in the Catholic faith who have said pretty much the same thing.
There are no shortcuts to holiness…it is a process.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Barbara

 

[NotWorthy]

No one on either side of the “family” ever doubted who Mother Theresa believed in as her Savior and Lord.

Then you may want to take a closer look at some of the threads here, where people have to actually defend Mother Teresa against claims made about her.

It’s sad.

 

[NotWorthy]

You may have heard the (correct me if I get the office he holds incorrectly) Bishop of New Orleans say that “God did not cause this but He allowed it”
I would have loved to heard the rest of what he said because that is how I have always been taught.

The awful things that happen are not caused by God but are allowed…and will be used for our good.
The hard part is in waiting for the good to be revealed in our life. AND that good is for our spiritual good not necessarily our material good.

My idea (in my flesh-the human side of mee) of good is winning the lottery. God’s idea of good is my spiritual growth, my character to be perfected.

My holiness, not my happiness is what matters most. That is what Billy Graham has said many times.

And I think there are many spiritual “Giants” in the Catholic faith who have said pretty much the same thing.
There are no shortcuts to holiness…it is a process.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Barbara

I understand what you mean. What of the greatest things that may have happened to me was my car accident last year, where I broke both my legs and was bed-ridden for 2-1/2 months.

It brought out this Spiritual Community that I have been involved in for the past couple of years in our diocese and really touched my wife’s heart to see that people who hardly even know me, are so loving and caring for our welfare.

 

[justacloserwalk]

I understand what you mean. What of the greatest things that may have happened to me was my car accident last year, where I broke both my legs and was bed-ridden for 2-1/2 months.

It brought out this Spiritual Community that I have been involved in for the past couple of years in our diocese and really touched my wife’s heart to see that people who hardly even know me, are so loving and caring for our welfare.

The worst thing that could have happened to us usually ends up being the best thing that could have happened to us.
What the world that was observing saw was how I apply 2 Cor 2:14
Look at “through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.”
When the world sees the love and care we show it gives glory and honor back to God the Father.

My son suffered a horrible accident 9 years ago. He was in ICU in a city 2 hrs from where we live. I stayed with friends but there was a steady stream of people driving to be with us as our son lay near death in a coma.
I didn’t think much of it until one of the icu nurses commented on the incredible support we were given.
Those living in darkness “saw the great light” of Jesus Christ as we were ministered to.

There was a nurse that belonged to the Eastern religion that wraps their heads in white cloths (can’t remember the name) and she saw people come in and pray over our son. They believed he had no brain function and were getting us ready to “pull the plug” when he had voluntary reflex through his brain stem.
To make it short, she also saw THREE months later a living miracle when he WALKED back into the same ICU.

I told someone we had been through the fires of hell and back…with Jesus by our side the whole time.

I do not know how people that do not know the Lord make it when bad stuff happens.

Barbara

 

[MariaG]

Everyone is afraid to look into what is being taught for themselves.
Theologians soiund theological and sometimes
translating what they are saying and reducing it into the “bottom line” takes a bit of work.

You have to know what you believe to begin with and then trust the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth.

Most people recognize “it” true saving faith lived out (works) when they see it. You know the old saying “it takes one to know one”?

No one on either side of the “family” ever doubted who Mother Theresa believed in as her Savior and Lord.

Our lives speak much more about what we really believe because what we believe we will live out. Some days it looks better for me than others.

Barbara

Actually, I know several people personally who believe it is a shame that Mother Teresa went to hell because she never knew Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior. She was Catholic, she couldn’t have known or she would have no longer been Catholic

Very sad.