We ARE saved by Works.

[MariaG]

Then you may want to take a closer look at some of the threads here, where people have to actually defend Mother Teresa against claims made about her.

It’s sad.

Oops. I just now read your post. Yes, it is very sad.

 

[lak611]

The worst thing that could have happened to us usually ends up being the best thing that could have happened to us.
What the world that was observing saw was how I apply 2 Cor 2:14
Look at “through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.”
When the world sees the love and care we show it gives glory and honor back to God the Father.

My son suffered a horrible accident 9 years ago. He was in ICU in a city 2 hrs from where we live. I stayed with friends but there was a steady stream of people driving to be with us as our son lay near death in a coma.
I didn’t think much of it until one of the icu nurses commented on the incredible support we were given.
Those living in darkness “saw the great light” of Jesus Christ as we were ministered to.

There was a nurse that belonged to the Eastern religion that wraps their heads in white cloths (can’t remember the name) and she saw people come in and pray over our son. They believed he had no brain function and were getting us ready to “pull the plug” when he had voluntary reflex through his brain stem.
To make it short, she also saw THREE months later a living miracle when he WALKED back into the same ICU.

I told someone we had been through the fires of hell and back…with Jesus by our side the whole time.

I do not know how people that do not know the Lord make it when bad stuff happens.

Barbara

Great post, Barbara. God bless you.

 

[EDUCE_1]

If you have no works your faith is dead and you may as well not have any faith because you aren’t saved. To think you will get over with claiming you have faith and then do nothing as a confirming result you are decieving yourself.

What types of works save us? All kinds actually because many things we do can prove we truly believe.

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise. But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

I can safely say that most of you have seen “The Passion of Christ” flash forward to the crucifiction, the thief on his right and the muderer to his left. the muderer is mocking Christ but yet the thief is acknowledging that he is a thief and he is a sinner by being a thief in public saying also that Jesus is the messiah with his mouth; Then asking Jesus to not forget him. With these words Jesus spoke “That on this day you will shall be seated at the righthand of my father”. NO WORK INVOLVED!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

I can safely say that most of you have seen “The Passion of Christ” flash forward to the crucifiction, the thief on his right and the muderer to his left. the muderer is mocking Christ but yet the thief is acknowledging that he is a thief and he is a sinner by being a thief in public saying also that Jesus is the messiah with his mouth; Then asking Jesus to not forget him. With these words Jesus spoke “That on this day you will shall be seated at the righthand of my father”. NO WORK INVOLVED!!!

OK…

When I read John, though, I don’t see Christ saying, “Unless one is hung on the Cross next to me, and asks to be in Paradise with me, they will not have Eternal Life”. All things are possible with God, yes, but God laid out some things that the Average Joe needs to consider if they wish to get to heaven.

And when Christ talked of Judgment, that Judgment was always based on our works.

Period.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I can safely say that most of you have seen “The Passion of Christ” flash forward to the crucifiction, the thief on his right and the muderer to his left. the muderer is mocking Christ but **yet the thief is acknowledging that he is a thief and he is a sinner by being a thief in public saying also that Jesus is the messiah **with his mouth; Then asking Jesus to not forget him. With these words Jesus spoke “That on this day you will shall be seated at the righthand of my father”. NO WORK INVOLVED!!!

What I have bolded in your statement IS a work.

You misunderstand what works are. The thief accepted Grace and Had Faith then he acted on it with his Work.

If he had remained silent his work would not have saved him in that instance.

 

[guanophore]

There has always been but two systems of religion in the world.

I know the world does appear to be pretty black and white to some people. I am just not one of them.

Many of you say that I am a follower of John Calvin or Martin Luther. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and if some of what He teaches me agrees with these men, then so be it.

It is no fault of your own, Robert. You probably never studied their teachings, and don’t even realize that your understanding of what Christ taught has been passed thru their filters.

Some of you tell me that it is by your achievements, and by your works that you are able to elevate yourself to some sort of higher spiritual rank where you can earn grace or mercy from God.

No one on this forum has said this, Robert. If it seems that way to you, then you don’t understand what is being said. Catholicism teaches that our salvation depends upon the mercy of God, which cannot be “earned”. Neither do people (or angels) “elevating themselves” arrive anywhere but the gates of hell. On the other hand, if one receives the grace poured out to us through the blood of Jesus, then one may perform the works of God that have been prepared in advance for us to do, and these works, based on grace, through faith, will earn merit.

Some of you even think, and have stated so here, that by working hard you someday will be able to stop sinning.  You back up your philosophy by using scripture out of context.

I think you misunderstood that too, Robert. No one can stop sinning by hard work. On the other hand, if one earnestly desires to have a pure heart, and is willing to cooperate with the Grace of God, then one can work out one’s salvation with fear and trembling, avoiding sin, and the near occasions of sin. The call to be pure, spotless, and perfect is not “philosophy”, Robert, it is a command of God. God does not command us to do things that are impossible to do. Therefore, He has made a way for us to avoid sin,and it is up to us to walk in it.

Many of you think that you are somehow the epicenter of the gospel, and without all your effort and good works God would probably have a difficult time accomplishing His goal in your spiritual life; He actually needs your help.

This is a misunderstanding also, Robert. We all know that God does not “need” our help. He CHOOSES our help. We are His hands, HIs feet, His lips. He has no body left on earth but ours. This is the basic incarnational principle. The kingdom of heaven is within us, we can either choose to cooperate with it, or not.

The Bible say's that our works are like "filthy rags."  The context is menstral rags.  And you in your arrogance think that you have something to offer God that is good!!!!

You are just not distinguishing, it seems, between works of the flesh, and sacred works. It is not arrogant to give back to God the gifts that He has given us. In fact, it is His due. The regenerated man has died to the flesh, and his life is hidden with Christ in God. The work he does, he does no longer to the flesh, but to the glory of God. It is right to give God glory through our obedience.

The only thing that you have to offer to God is His Son’s death on the cross. But many of you feel that this act is somehow not quite sufficient. You need to add something!!

You are right to say that the sacrifice of the Mass is the best offering we can make. It is made around the clock, around the world by Catholics everywhere. We are called to join with Him in his death and in offering the sacrifice of His death on the cross, to conform ourselves to Him in suffering. We are to add from our own lives what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

Many of you don't think that Jesus died for your sins, otherwise you wouldn't think that you will be judged for them again!  God judged Jesus for your sins.  So why in the world would you be judged again for them!!

Jesus did pay for our sins, but there are some that refuse to get into the shopping bag and go with Him. There is a judgement where everyone will be judged by their deeds. We will give an account of every idle word we have spoken, and everything will be open and laid bare before Him with whom we have to do. However, those whose lives are hidden with Christ in God will overcome the world, and will escape the wrath of punishment.

 

[guanophore]

You belong to organizations where they crucify Christ every Sunday. The death of Jesus is a finished work. Christ cannot die again because there is no more sacrifice for sin! You ignore scripture when it tells you that your [only] mediator is Jesus Christ. He is your mediator, because the Bible say’s so, and because He was the one who justified you in God’s eyes.

Clearly you are suffering a number of misconceptions. It is not an “organization” to which we belong, but a Body, created by Christ. He commanded us to celebrate this sacrament in His memory. However, we do this in memory of Him, and we do not crucify the Son of God afresh. We apply the finished work He did to ourselves, in this way, we participate in His death, and resurrection.

It is also false that we ignore scripture when it tells us that there is only one mediator between God and man - Jesus. It is just that we understand on a deeper level that Jesus came so that we could participate in Him. He wants us to be one in Him, as He is with the Father. He wants us to be partakers of His grace. As we join with Him, be also join ourselves to the mediation that He brings, reconciling the world to Himself. There are some, which we call saints, that we recognize have joined with Him more perfectly.

Ritual, ceremonial and sacramental Christianity has posed a serious threat to the authentic Biblical gospel.

I am sorry that your faith has been scandalized by the things that Christ demonstrated and commanded us to do. I am not really sure what to say about this. I think your arguement is with Jesus, since he is the one that instituted the rituals, ceremonies, and sacraments.

This type of church becomes a surrogate Christ, displacing the real Christ.

Again you are misunderstanding. Jesus said “He who hears you, hears me”. He gave us Himself through the Church, and His body is the means by which He intended us to be joined together with one another, with Him as our Head. there is no separation, or displacement. I understand that you are separated from us, and therefore, it seems that way to you.

Many of you connect only to the institution (your church) through the mechanical works rather than to the living Christ.

Perhaps this is your experience, but it is not that way for us. We connect with the living Christ through the Church, and the sacraments.

For you external ceremonies take the place of internal worship. The sacrament or ritual becomes the means of grace instead of symbols of grace. Your ministers become exalted intermediaries between people and God. You perform rituals for salvation, instead of humble servants who bring grace to save, sanctify and equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

This whole paragraph seems to be very judgemental to me. It reminds me of the kinds of thinking I had before I left Catholicism. It took almost 20 years for me to realize that I was talking about myself, just as you are most likely talking about yourself here. We often see our own shortcomings better in others than we do ourselves. It is the nature of our humanity. You are right, though, if you are not connecting with Christ personally in the sacraments, then the ritual is empty.

Many of you think that you can lose your salvation. That’s because you falsely think that you need to work hard, and if you don’t do enough good works, God will take it (His free gift) away from you. John 5:24. “Most assuredly, I say to you he who believes my Word, and believes in Him who sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death unto life.”

I think you misunderstand the meaning of holding fast to the word of truth. Salvation does not come from good works, Robert. Salvation comes by grace, through faith. We do have a responsibility to remain in a state of grace. It is possible to throw away gifts that God has given. The one who believes will persevere until the end.

I am not here to embarrass or humiliate anyone, and if I come across that way, I am truly sorry. I only ask that you will think about what I sincerely feel that the Holy Spirit has asked me to share with you today. All I ask is that you pray about this, and ask God to give you wisdom. I am not here to compete in some debate, but only to share what God has shared with me.

God Bless,
Robert

It appears that the Holy Spirit has guided you to publish a detailed list of your erroneous understandings about His teachings. I dont’ know if, by publishing it, you will be able to receive the benefit of correction from it, but I do pray so.

 

[justacloserwalk]

Until the Canon of scripture in 300 something (someone here knows the date, hour and exact year lol) there was no bible.

The Catholic Church is the reason we have scripture because it preserved the bible during the dark ages.

Tradition preceded the Bible. I found a church father in 125 AD writing about the “real prescence” in the Eucharist.
I don’t think they had time to argue “Symbolic or literal” it was obviously literal.

Do you honestly think that “the” church has only been here for the last 600 yrs?

Visit and Orthodox Christian service and you will see how the very early church worshipped.Itt was liturgical and sacramental.

No music programs, no razzledazzle, no expository bible teaching…just the Sacraments…and look at what happened JUST on that alone.

History doesn’t back up your position…and there is
quite a bit online. Check it out yourself and keep an open mind.

I see people saying things that are not accurate about the other side of the fence as well…so don’t get all puffed up!

Barbara

 

[guanophore]

Amen to that. If we were saved by works, then Jesus didn’t need to be a perfect sacrifice for us. I agree though that faith alone doesn’t save us. Sorry, Sunday Christians (protestants)!

I think this is an uncharitable comment. As you would have other say about you, so say unto them. It is not right to judge the hearts of others, even those that do only practice their faith on Sunday. At least it is a start!

Besides, there are FAR more Catholics who are “Sunday Christians” than Protestant!

 

[guanophore]

Hi Barbara,
Jesus just taught on all those things so we would know when we don’t measure up? But we’re already saved. And works follow from being saved. Or perhaps what you mean is that we WANT works to flow once we are saved, but as Paul says ‘we do what we do not want and we do not do as we want.’ Now this makes sense. Once we have faith, we MUST then persevere in good works even when we don’t want to. This is what sifts the sheep from the goats - NOT the belief in Christ as savior. The belief in Christ as Savior leads us to understand the need to follow him with our lives.

Jesus knew how hard it would be and so he ‘encouraged’ us with ideas of heavenly rewards, peace that surpasses all understanding and also the threat of eternal punishment. Yes, even those who say they believe that Christ died for our sins may find themselves in Hell at the end. If we do not persevere in our good works and prayer, we won’t make it.

Why do I need to rethink my statement on faith? I am not stating anything. I am trying to understand what those who “reject a works doctrine” believe. It seems to me that what these people believe is that once we have faith, we will automatically do good works. Well, most of the time or at least part of the time. If we don’t, we’ll repent. See how confusing it is.

Of course I thoroughly agree with the third line above. Nothing to disagree with there. But apparently you repent out of duty to Christ, because he asked us to and I repent to increase in me sanctifying grace, to help me to avoid further and greater sin and to dispose me to continue to do more good works (and thus avoid losing my salvation).

There’s a little more motivation to repent if you are repenting because of my reasons. That’s just human nature and God knows that. Correct me if I misunderstand what you are saying.

There are two very excellent threads on this. Go to the top of the page and enter into the “search” the keywords “works salvation”. you will have more than you ever wanted from those who are “faith alone”.

 

[guanophore]

I can safely say that most of you have seen “The Passion of Christ” flash forward to the crucifiction, the thief on his right and the muderer to his left. the muderer is mocking Christ but yet the thief is acknowledging that he is a thief and he is a sinner by being a thief in public saying also that Jesus is the messiah with his mouth; Then asking Jesus to not forget him. With these words Jesus spoke “That on this day you will shall be seated at the righthand of my father”. NO WORK INVOLVED!!!

It seems to me that hanging on the cross until you die is quite a bit of “work”. If not, then why is it not “work” when Jesus did it for us?

Anyway, he did the most important work of God, and the only work that can get us saved.

 

[justacloserwalk]

I think we recognize “sunday” Christians because as my Mother used to say “It takes one to know one”
At one time or another we have all left our “Christianity” at the door of the church…the minute I get in the car and someone cuts me off in traffic…for example.

Sunday only Christians don’t get to me as much as TWO times a Year Christians…Christmas and Easter.
I can’t say much though, one year our family was sick from before Christmas until the week after Easter. And no, I am not joking or making excuses. It was literally ONE thing after another.

Try praying for those you think are “sunday” only Christians. A little prayer goes a long way.
I think we seem to understand that we can’t earn our salvation.
I was thinking about this. Maybe what looks like work to one person may not FEEL like work because of the joy one gets in doing it.(performing)
It is our “reasonable” service.
I am concerned when someone thinks “I have to do works” instead of gratitude that the Lord Jesus PAID the price with His sacrifice. It implies (to me IMO only) that THEY are somehow “earning” salvation. which the Catholic Church does not teach. See my earlier post where I posted what the RC teaches.
Barbara

 

[DLC]

If we are saved by our good works, how many good work do we have to do in order to be saved?

 

[DLC]

Rom 4:1-6
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one whoworks, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
NASU

Rom 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
NASU

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
NASU

2 Tim 1:8-9

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity
NASU

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy
NASU

 

[truthnlight]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.–Ephesians 2:8-10

Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives He lives to God (Rom. 6:10).

. Galatians001:001 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
001:002 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
001:003 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
001:004 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
001:005 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
001:006 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto ANOTHER GOSPEL
001:007 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT the gospel of Christ.
001:008 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Judaizers

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God
2. Circumcision
3. Become a Jew
4. Sacrificial System
5. Priests
6. High Priests
7. Altars
8. Feast Days
9. Laver of Water
10. Dietary Regulations
11. Candles
12. Incense
13. Shew Bread
14. Keep the Ten Commandments
15. Tradition of the Elders

Roman Catholicism

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God
2. Baptism
3. Become a Roman Catholic
4. Sacrificial System
5. Priests
6. High Priests
7. Altars
8. Feast Days
9. Font of Holy Water
10. Dietary Regulations (Until recently)
11. Candles
12. Incense
13. The Eucharist Wafer
14. Keep the Ten Commandments
15. Tradition of the Church Fathers

The parallels are obvious. Paul warned the Galatian believers that if they embraced this false gospel they would actually desert Christ (Gal. 1:6).

 

[lak611]

1. Keep the Ten Commandments
   The parallels are obvious. Paul warned the Galatian believers that if they embraced this false gospel they would actually desert Christ (Gal. 1:6).

Well, how do you explain what John says here?

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.(KJV)

 

[NotWorthy]

The parallels are obvious. Paul warned the Galatian believers that if they embraced this false gospel they would actually desert Christ (Gal. 1:6).

Are you saying the Jews followed a false gospel?!?

Have you seen the Catholic Church desert Christ?

 

[NotWorthy]

Roman Catholicism

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God
2. Baptism
3. Become a Roman Catholic
4. Sacrificial System
5. Priests
6. High Priests
7. Altars
8. Feast Days
9. Font of Holy Water
10. Dietary Regulations (Until recently)
11. Candles
12. Incense
13. The Eucharist Wafer
14. Keep the Ten Commandments
15. Tradition of the Church Fathers

The parallels are obvious. Paul warned the Galatian believers that if they embraced this false gospel they would actually desert Christ (Gal. 1:6).

Which one of these are not Scriptural? If they are Scriptural, how can they be false gospels?

 

[NotWorthy]

The parallels are obvious.

Actually, on second thought, I want to thank you for noticing the parallels, for they following the commandments of God.

But the obvious difference in our obeying God’s message and the Jews obeying God’s message is that we have the saving Grace of Jesus to lift us up on high.

 

[MariaG]

Matt 5:17"Think not that I have come to abolish** the law and the prophets; I have come not to** abolish** them but to fulfil them. **

This verse kept springing to mind so I thought I would post it