We cannot be created since consciousness is irreducible and primary

[ynotzap]

You are mis[INDEN

1. There is no before and after in state of timeless
2. Creation by definition is a state of being that comes to existence by an external agent
3. This means that universe did not exist before creation and exist after
4. This means that there exist two state of existence, God only, and God plus universe
5. This means that the second state of existence (God and creation) comes after the first one (God only)
6. (1) and (5) contradict each other since God is in state of timeless and cannot exist in two different mode of existence, one follows another
7. Hence (1) is wrong if we accept (2)

ans 1: true 2;true 3;true 4:False, God is not a state of existence, He is Existence. God always is, Creation is in the state of time (Change) 5:False, refer to ans 4 Ans: 6:the error is in your logic, and understanding. Ans 7: 1 is right, and 2 is still right
[/quote]

 

[Bahman]

My first assessment was correct. You are not open to discussion, you will not accept the truth. You continue to ignore the sources I gave you, even the Cathechism which is linked below.

You have dug in your heels and have no intention of changing. It is pointless to challenge us on points on which your mind is already fixed. By doing that you are not proving us wrong, you only prove that you are not open to the truth. Therefore discussion is pointless, I for one wash my hands of this case.

Linus2nd

Ok. I will read the manuscript that you provided the link. I will let you know my opinion about it soon. I might open another thread if I need a deep discussion.

 

[Bahman]

ans 1: true 2;true 3;true 4:False, God is not a state of existence, He is Existence. God always is, Creation is in the state of time (Change) 5:False, refer to ans 4 Ans: 6:the error is in your logic, and understanding. Ans 7: 1 is right, and 2 is still right

I don’t understand why (4) is wrong. Could you please elaborate?

Is it correct to say that God only exist and God plus creation exist? Can I use a state of existence or any other phrase that you prefer to classify these mode of existences?

 

[Bahman]

Bahman: If you are aware of an all encompassing awareness, and I use the word awareness to represent consciousness who you identify as God, then Consciousness is primary, for God is before all In prayer we strive to be aware of God, who we know is aware of us When we experience mutual awareness (consciousness) of each other, we are spiritually united, this is the work of the Holy Spirit and it does happen in contemplation It is God making His presence known to us. In Heaven we will know, as we are known.

I make a distinction between awareness and consciousness.

Consciousness is the ability to experience and affect other states. Consciousness is an ability and it is primary for any being who could react, whether it is an atom, a human being or God.

Awareness in another hand is the knowledge gained through consciousness. I can accept that there exist a hierarchy in level of awareness and there exist beings with much higher level of awareness than us, for example God, but we all share the same consciousness.

My basic question is how God could create us since God by my definition is a conscious being, similar to us, and we both share a basic quality of being, which is consciousness which is primary and cannot be granted.

 

[ynotzap]

I don’t understand why (4) is wrong. Could you please elaborate?

Is it correct to say that God only exist and God plus creation exist? Can I use a state of existence or any other phrase that you prefer to classify these mode of existences?

Definition of “state” a set of circumstances or attributes characterizing a person or thing at a given time, way or form of being, condition (eg. state of poverty, state of bliss etc)

Your statement (4) this means there exists two states of existence God only, and God and creation.

A state implies “change” eg. state of fear, happiness, war, peace, tanquility etc.
God is not in a state of existence that implies change, for God is His attibutes, His essence is Existence, He is Pure Being so doesn’t change, His is Pure Act. That which is not pure being experiences change.

On the other hand, Creation exists because God hold it in existence, existence is not the nature of creation, creation has existence as an attribute, and creation is not it’s attributes.
God is Pure Being, and Pure Act, there is no Potency in Him, otoh, the characteristics of our nature show that we are Potency and Act, we move from a real capacity to change to the actual change, ( from ignorance to knowing eg.) God doesn’t change,He is Pure Act.

The words God is Existence, and Creation has( is given) existence (from God who sustains it in existence) would clarify the difference as to the mode

 

[Bahman]

Definition of “state” a set of circumstances or attributes characterizing a person or thing at a given time, way or form of being, condition (eg. state of poverty, state of bliss etc)

Your statement (4) this means there exists two states of existence God only, and God and creation.

A state implies “change” eg. state of fear, happiness, war, peace, tanquility etc.
God is not in a state of existence that implies change, for God is His attibutes, His essence is Existence, He is Pure Being so doesn’t change, His is Pure Act. That which is not pure being experiences change.

On the other hand, Creation exists because God hold it in existence, existence is not the nature of creation, creation has existence as an attribute, and creation is not it’s attributes.
God is Pure Being, and Pure Act, there is no Potency in Him, otoh, the characteristics of our nature show that we are Potency and Act, we move from a real capacity to change to the actual change, ( from ignorance to knowing eg.) God doesn’t change,He is Pure Act.

The words God is Existence, and Creation has( is given) existence (from God who sustains it in existence) would clarify the difference as to the mode

So lets agree on your definition and see where we can go from:

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

Moreover, creation is subjected to change and sustaining a being which is subjected to change requires change as well hence God cannot sustain creation.

 

[Tomdstone]

So lets agree on your definition and see where we can go from:

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

Moreover, creation is subjected to change and sustaining a being which is subjected to change requires change as well hence God cannot sustain creation.

I am not sure if God does not change, or at least His knowledge does not change. For example, in Zephaniah 1:12 we read: "It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, ‘The LORD will not do good or evil!’. Generally, wouldn’t one’s knowledge change after doing a search with lamps? Otherwise, why bother to search?

 

[ynotzap]

So lets agree on your definition and see where we can go from:

1. God does not change
2. Creation was a part of God’s thought
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that creation has to be eternal
4. Creation has a beginning though hence it require change in God
5. (3) and (4) contradict each other hence (1) is wrong

Moreover, creation is subjected to change and sustaining a being which is subjected to change requires change as well hence God cannot sustain creation.

(1) True

God does not change, He is the fullness of Being, only that which is not the fullness of being is subject to change, He is Pure Act, no change, He is not Potency and Act,change. He is all He can be eternally Creation show the characteristic of Potency and Act.eg. Ice can be water, water can be steam, but they can not be in all states of existence at one time, so they must change, yet remain matter. God is the Creator of time, and apart from it, He is the Creator of Creation and not part of it.

(2) False

Creation is not part of God’s thoughts, God has not parts, and He has no thoughts. thoughts belong to intellectual creatures, God is intelligence, and Truth the very object of pursuit of the intelligence of creatures. truth is the object of appetency of created intelligence. thoughts are mental concepts, God has no need for them. God is Omniscience

(3) False

Creation is not eternal, if it was it would not be subject to time and change. It accidentally appears eternal because God sustains it’s existence eternally, if He didn’t it would cease to exist.

(4) False. God does not change because He creates, He is the fullness of Being, that which does not possess the fullness of being is subject to change (Creation) Creation manifest the conditions of Potency and Act, change.

(5) two false do not make a right, 5 is still false

Last statement" Ans. is still false, God does not change, He does not contradict Himself, His is Existence, Eternal, and always Complete