We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[motstraumen]

Why should the church call a council everytime wishes to challenge church teaching? If that were so then there would be a council everyday!

It wasn’t just Luther and the Reformers, it was even the Emperor Charles V who asked the pope to call one. The reason Pope Clement and Pope Leo didn’t call one was for fear of its outcome. That is historical fact. Don’t be so blind.

Yes i said luther was prideful and a sinner because his pride got in the way, this is what caused the split (kinda the same way your accusing the church members of sinning). He refused to accept church teaching because he thought he was right and knew better then the church (again, which had the backing of 1500 years of theologians and saints and early church fathers). If Lutheran confessions are rife with tradition then why are they so different from catholic teaching? why remove 7 books from the bible? why different beliefs in regards women ordination? What good is tradition if you change that tradition to suit your beliefs? Tradition is destroyed then.

You keep saying and spewing these same arguments that don’t hold up to truthful historical analysis, even by scholars (including John Paul II and Benedict XVI) in the Catholic churc. Pull your head out of the sand. He did not remove 7 books, stop claiming he did. You have been told this over and over, I invite you to investigate his translation of the Bible and “Behold, all of it is there!” Why different beliefs about women ordination? Because Scripture shows that there were women apostles, Priscilla for one, and Junia for another. If tradition is so important, why do you get to receive the cup today. That was a tradition that the Roman Church sent secular armiest to war over and many Bohemians were killed on account of this war. They were told this is church doctrine, you are not allowed the cup as laity for fear of dripping some of Christ’s most precious blood, yet here we are today and in Catholic parishes around the world laity receive the cup. I guess your tradtion is destroyed. You just are not consequential and consistent in your thinking. Do you even look at the context of a given historical situation, as do your superiors do, as in the Vatican appointed members of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue?

The comment about threatening the pope’s wordly power is ridiculous, They condemned him because it threatened the truth and nothing else. If he stays loyal to the church none of this happens. I’ll admit there was some bad conduct from the catholic church’s part but they still held the truth of the faith regardless. If Luther honestly wanted the church to be better with it’s practices then he should have led by example like so many other great saints! Not create a split!

Look at the history, not from a Lutheran perspective nor a Catholic perspective, find any objective historical account of the time and it will show you. Do some research. Do not rest on age old presumptions within your church that have been put aside by your church today.

Yes the faith is Christ alone, This is the catholic faith. I really don’t think you understand this. If you did (and if luther did) he would have been obedient to the church but unfortunately that’s not what happened. The church in it’s creed states " we believe in one lord Jesus Christ, eternally begotten of the father, god from god,light from light, true god from true god". Our church is built on christ in the eucharist with peter as his the leader of the church here on earth.

If you understood you would be obedient to your superiors and understand that our two communions have come a long way in objectively looking at history together, seeing fault on both sides. I understand fully that is what your church teaches, and guess what they agree that we believe it too. That may surprise you, but that is what the Joint Declaration says, as do other writings and speeches given by John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Guess what I know the creed too, say it every Sunday. The church is built on Christ who is, who was, and ever shall be world without end, fully (bodily) present in the blessed sacrament, given to those who cling to the teaching of all the apostles, the pillars of the church, with Christ as our cornerstone

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1984/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19840302_commissione-cattolico-luterana_en.html

 

[motstraumen]

Doesn’t stop other catholics saying it? Seriously, this is weak. If i see a lutheran being violent, or swearing or committing a sin does that mean i’m going to assume that all lutherans are the same? This is what you are arguing here, just because a couple of catholics use the term doesn’t mean they all do. You need to look at your own backyard before saying things like that.

Yes we are united in some areas but not all, again and again i’ve explained this to you. It was the lutherans that separated from the church, not the other way around. I commend you for you efforts and your willingness to be united but as i’ve explained the differences that separate us are of great importance. I sincerely hope this can be overcome one day, but the unity of both churches you speak about, honestly do you think that the church will let go of some of it’s teachings in order for the sake of unity with a dissident group? the answer is no. Unity with Christ is the most important thing.

From the quote you took from me, I don’t see where you are coming from? You have shown, as has distracted, over and over again that you assume the worst about protestant, the reformers, and especially Luther. We can go over and over who split from whom, I believe the papal bull came from Rome though, I don’t think Luther had all those seals hanging around his Cloister in Wittenberg.

And I invite you to do the same looking in your own backyard before you presume to understand the Lutheran Church. You have shown over and over again you understand very little, even your own Church tradition and your Church’s work today in its seeking out church unity, not by badgering, but by true dialogue.

I agree the differences are great, but God in Christ is greater still. If God can rescue you or me from the abyss of sin, he surely can bring down all walls that divide us (Ephesians 2).

 

[motstraumen]

I see now what you were driving at in the “saying” quote. I am not presuming you do it at all, but there are many on this forum who do that to fellow Catholics. “you are”, “they are” cafeteria catholics etc. Those that use this polemic are saying “we are the only ones that can speak for the Catholic Church” don’t listen to “those Cafeteria Catholics”. What gives the ones claiming to be the authority, the authority. Have they been called or appointed to this position by their Bishop, and with that the authority to shut down other Catholics on this forum from giving their opinion (by this I mean that in their comment of a person being a “Cafeteria Catholic” they undermine their credibility and their understanding of the faith). I don’t presume to speak for the whole of the Lutheran Communion, although I have a valid call and ordination to speak authoritatively on our doctrines. I do look in my own backyard, but just as you speak up and out about your Church when you feel others have maligned it, I will do the same. God Bless and Good night!

 

[rinnie]

Is the Catholic Church the right church to play bingo in?

Well I guess if you really really like bingo yeah its a good place to go. Look at it this way, where else can you go, have a little fun and enjoyment, and if you lose you gave the money to feed the poor. And that the worse thing that can happen. You know your money went to a good cause. Now the other side is you not only donated the Church, you hit the jackpot ! Now if someone hits the jackpot and come home with a couple grand they would say OH YEAH good place to go.

 

[rinnie]

Getting back to the doctrine of Faith, Christ commited to the apostles the task of preaching the word in his name with his authority. He assured them the assistance of the Holy spirit. He commanded them to teach his word to all nations binding hearers to believing theirs words as the words of God and he promised to be with them in their preaching until the end of time.

Lets start there. Protestants deny this. Now its the teaching of Christ, its written in the bible but its still now believed. They say no we believe in Apostolic teaching but they say they have the same authority as the apostles. How can that be? I don’t have the authority. I can’t give you absolution for your sins? I do not have the power of the HS to teach anyone…

The Church teaches and believes a living faith. The church and especially the bishops are charged to preserve and maintain there is also the obligation under the guidance of the HS with prayer and study to arrive at a greater understanding of the divine word.

Development of doctrine does not mean abandonment of doctrine or the substitution of new dogmas for old. the church will never deny what it has firmly believed.

The first Vatican Council taught the meaning of sacred dogmas which has once been declared by holy mother church must always be retained.

This is my Point. Genuine development of doctrine always proceed along consistant lines with full continuity to Apostolic tradition of the Church.

Now Spring meadow accused the Church of just that. It has nor never will be done. These teaching’s are our promise from God that the Truth is the Truth.

I have admitted the Church leaders have made mistakes on personal levels. Who hasn’t. God never promised that any man could not fall from Grace. Even Priests that have fallen from Grace on a personal level, still when in the good grace of God taught the true dogma of the faith. Their personal mistakes did not mean that the teaching’s were false.

While Luther had the fullnes of the truth he turned away from the Church and tried to teach what he felt was true. It was just not the sinners of the church that he had a problem with it was also the doctrine of faith. Because if he didn’t what gave him the authority to take it upon himself to take out books. Why did he do that? That is what we need to know. All I hear is he didn’t like this conduct of Priests, and that. I can accept that. I will not deny that. Some did indeed on a personal level do wrong. But it was just not that. Yes he did show some Priest’s were not conducting themself in a way a man of God should. That was never denied.

But now lets get back to the point here. Not all of the Priest’s were bad, Now back to him, look at his conduct once he left the Church. Is that the way a man of the Cloth should act? Tell the truth.

So now we have a person who not only accused the Church look at his example of being a Priest. That there should have showed people something. Then he not only condemns he leaves the Church, and then he takes out books that are the word of God. Now lets go there. Why did he do that? The books in the bible were and still are the Word of GOD. That has never been denied. Now please show me how that can be accepted? It is one thing to fall from grace and go astray. But how can anyone remove the Books of Almighty God and get away with it. Please I am not saying he was wrong to bring the personal sins of the Priest to light. But taking out the word of God. Please show me how anyone can accept that? Thats all I want to know?

 

[swplan76]

If I have offened anyone I am sorry…

Hey Rinnie,

   You haven't offended me.  I find you sharp around the edges, but I am not offended by that.  

   The word defend used to be employed in terms of argumentation and was thought to be a very logical, intelligent thing.  Today, when we use the word defend, we think of 'Braveheart' or illogically standing by a corrupt President, simply because he's the president - people don't defend with logic at the center of *how *they defend.  Emotion comes into it too easy these days.  Its not just the defenders, but the 'attackers' too.  Instead of being able to hear what people are saying, people find reason to take offense with them.  Personally, I value that you have an opinion.  So many people don't.  At least you are thinking about things.  I may not agree with everything you have to say, but I appreciate that you are advocating thinking about the important things.

    That said, I'd like to present something for you to process.  ;):D

   God is supernatural.  He is beyond our natural sense of things.  If we look at Israel and even Jesus' followers, humans who were committed to God constantly misunderstood and/or underestimated Him.  God is simple in some ways - His promises to us are fairly clear - but in other ways God is complex.  Sometimes in the face of His complexity, because we want something simple, we develop ideas that will answer our questions - ever denomination has done it.  We hold on tightly to things that God didn't intend for us to be committed to.  Can we predict Him - often times predicting God is a fool's errand.  Jesus never heals people the same way twice.  God operates in his divine wisdom - we don't fully understand it.  We have our moments, when we get Him and we join Him in what He is calling us to, but much of the time, like other believers we see in scripture, we don't understand Him.  Right?

You said:“You must have every sacrament to have every truth. The Catholic Church has that. Can you say that your church has every sacrament, and exercise’s that right! hen BINGO you have the right Church and the FULLNESS OF THE FAITH!”

   Many people through out time have tried to use equations to understand how to relate to God.  If I do X and add Y I will get Z.  Someone in history decided that the "right church" would be determined by X+Y... Not just 'someone,' many people have done it.  If you have X + Y, then you will have Z (the right church).  Some denominations may have used the entire alphabet in defining the equations that they believe make them right with God.

Personally, I know that God is right. He is the answer. I believe in the power of the redeeming blood of Jesus. I work out the equations, but I understand that I am just a man, so I work them out on a chalkboard (metaphorically speaking) - when somethings don’t make sense, I can rework the equation easily, with little pain involved.

I’ve heard someone else contrast theology in this way:

BrickwallTheology
Some people build their theology like a wall, they stack it so that everything rests on everything else. If you come along and challenge their thinking, then they get quite upset because you are challenging everything they believe. When you poke at one problem, you challenge the entire integrity of the wall. They fear that if one brick comes loose the whole thing might collapse. If the whole thing falls apart, then some of the other bricks might break, or chip, so they defend their faith fiercely.

The people they encounter don’t enjoy the experience. The people they engage in discussion with end up regretting having met the brickwalltheology people in the first place. They walk away thinking, “Not me, I don’t want what they have” (what fun is a brickwall any way?).

TrampolineTheology
Maybe it works better if we think about it like a trampoline. There is a tension that keeps the system elevated. the platform is held in place by 40 or 50 springs (I don’t have a trampoline, so I don’t exactly know). We all come to bounce on it. Maybe there is a problem with a few springs, so we take those ones off and replace them. We don’t have to get off the trampoline - people can keep bouncing on it even when we replace the springs, though they would likely want to stop and look and see this new spring and also give the people who are putting the new spring in place a bit of a calmer surface to deal with. In contrast with BrickwallTheology, the Trampoline is not compromised if things need to be changed. The change of springs doesn’t threaten the surface upon which we stand. It isn’t as fragile as the Brickwall.

Trampolines are mostly fun if we share them. My friend has one. I don’t ever see anyone on it alone. People want to be there and they want to share the experience with others. That kind of theology makes sense to me.

I think we have to ask, Who is really leading us through life. We have the Holy Spirit, so what do we have to worry about? The more I look, the more I see that my worried attitude only complicates what God is trying to do - its like God is steering the car, but I think I have to as well, so instead of going straight, I pull the wheel and make a mess of things. I do it with good intentions, but I have to learn that he is the driver and He is the best there is.

Thoughts?

 

[swplan76]

“If God is for us, who can be against us?”

 

[rinnie]

Hi Swplan. I know I appear a little rough around the edges but I am really really nice in person.

I guess I need more mushey words.

I am not real sure what you are asking me, but I can answer who is really leading us. Easy one. Jesus Christ. Now here is another easy one for me, but you are gonna disagree with me here. How is he leading us? To me again easy one the Church. Next question how so. Because that was his promise to me.

Now go back to Paul. Remember what he was doing? He was persecuting the Catholic Church. But he was actually persecuting Jesus, was he not. Now Jesus said he would leave us teachers and promised them the Power of the HS to never lead us astray.

Now see I can lead you astray, Do you agree? You can lead me astray do you agree? But see the Catholic Church IS JESUS. He said so. So I can not possibly be led astray.

Because the teaching of the church is rooted in the teaching Of Jesus that came from the Apostles the church is call Apostolic. That means it can trace its origins to the apostles and it still maintain continuity with them. Now Jesus promised me and the Apostles I will never lead you astray. I will give you the words until the end of time. Now that is all in the bible. and true words of God. Now why did he do this? Simple so I would know the true Church.

Remember how he said that many will come and try to teach, but to stay away from them? Stick with the early Fathers of the Church. See he knew this would happen, thats why he warned me. Now what are your thoughts here?

 

[JonNC]

=Louie1983;5315964]Common language and common ground? it’s about finding truth, that’s why the church had councils. I was talking about the giving into error and losing to error, i wasn’t talking about pride. I was saying there is no other choice but to overcome and beat error that is taught. I’m sorry but if you see this as being proud, then that’s your opinion.

You didn’t answer my question. Did Lutherans or Catholics “give in” on the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification"? Did it find truth, albeit limited in scope?

I believe pride and sin is what Luther showed when he refused to listen to the church. Thinking that he understood better than 1500 years of church tradition and teaching.

I believe the Church showed pride and sin when, in order to raise duckets, refused to listen to Luther about corrupt practices within the Church. There was fault on both sides.

How can you call it common ground if there will be differences in the faith? There is no room for catholics to compromise their faith. As soon as we do this, then we are no longer catholic.

I never said compromise. We won’t compromise, either, I wouldn’t want or expect Rome to. Dialogue is not about compromise, or winners and losers, it is about finding ways, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to express truth together.

You said earlier you were in support of dialogue between our communions, yet you don’t seem to think that the Holy Spirit can lead us together. I’ve mentioned this before, but I have heard Catholics say that all that needs to happen for unity is for Protestants to “come home”. I have also heard Lutherans say that all that needs to happen for unity is for the Catholic Church to renounce “false doctrine”. Well, it seems to me that, up until 50 years ago, that was the prevailing approach to unity. I think we can agree that approach pretty much didn’t work.
Triumphalism doesn’t bring unity. It only brings further hardening of hearts. I oppose Lutheran triumphalism, and Catholic triumphalism.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

You still don’t get it, Yes there was blame on both sides for the events but the catholic church held the truth and faith and luther in the end strayed from them that. That was the end result whether you like it or not. There was error in conduct and action but not in fath and doctrine. This is where i think Luther got confused.

 

[greggy53]

“If God is for us, who can be against us?”

“If” is the longest word in the english language.

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t know about that being church doctrine, it never was. It was a belief but never church doctrine.

I would like to point out that any idea the church was, on it’s own authority, willing to burn a person for is doctrinal from the church’s point of view.

This applies whether the belief was formally defined or not.

 

[mardukm]

I would like to point out that any idea the church was, on it’s own authority, willing to burn a person for is doctrinal from the church’s point of view.

This applies whether the belief was formally defined or not.

Galileo was never burned at the stake.

Blessings

 

[rinnie]

I would like to point out that any idea the church was, on it’s own authority, willing to burn a person for is doctrinal from the church’s point of view.

This applies whether the belief was formally defined or not.

How could it be church dogma if it was not formally defined. Thats impossible.

 

[motstraumen]

Galileo was never burned at the stake.

Blessings

You are correct, but they did hold him under house arrest. They also condemned Copernicus’ theory of heliocentricism, which had influenced Galileo.

 

[swplan76]

Hi Swplan. I know I appear a little rough around the edges but I am really really nice in person.

I guess I need more mushey words.

Hey Rinnie,
Its not about the words you choose, its the role you choose to take in the relationships you are forming online. A problem all kinds of people have is that they want to be the judge. Looking at scripture, God is the judge. In James we are given these words:
“Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. But you are not a judge who can decided whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. God alone who made the law can rightly judge among us He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor?” (James 4:11&12).
And further down it says,
“Don’t grumble about each other, my brothers and sisters, or God will judge you. For look! The great Judge is coming. He is standing at the door!” (James 5:9).

We get in arguments about which church is the right church and this is clearly against what we are told to do in scripture. “Your job is to obey it;” We are called to judge ourselves - Am I the person God wants me to be?

Clearly the passage from James warns us in v.9: “…or God will judge you. For Look!.. He is standing at the door!” Its like James is saying, “God sees what we are doing, don’t pretend that you have His wisdom, or you will be in serious trouble.” If we take on the role of the judge of who is in and who is out, is it as though we are saying to God, “I think I can do your job better than you can.” Not a place we want to be. Its not as though He is absent and He isn’t working on all of us all the time. God wants us all to accept Him and walk with Him through this life and into the next. Its not up to me to force you to see what I see. First of all, my vision of things isn’t perfect - I don’t want you to see like me. Its God’s vision that we need to be after… so, in that respect, I don’t want to see like you - God may have given you something to teach me, but you don’t have His perspective nailed down. You simply cannot contain it - only He can do that.

I am not real sure what you are asking me, but I can answer who is really leading us. Easy one. Jesus Christ. Now here is another easy one for me, but you are gonna disagree with me here. How is he leading us? To me again easy one the Church.

Nope, I agree. I think you’ll agree that God is leading the church and each of its members through the Holy Spirit. So, primarily God is leading us through the Holy Spirit, right?

Now go back to Paul. Remember what he was doing? He was persecuting the Catholic Church. But he was actually persecuting Jesus, was he not. Now Jesus said he would leave us teachers and promised them the Power of the HS to never lead us astray.

I don’t think you’ll be surprised to hear that the Bible doesn’t use the word “Catholic.” In the Churches beginning there was just the Church. I think its important that you recognize that you are adding to the text. The Bible does not differentiate between Catholic and Protestant. When the Bible refers to the Church it is talking about the believers, the body of Christ.

When I hear the Bible say “Church” I don’t think of the Pope, or a building, or a specific denomination. I think of it in context. I don’t think of the early church as Catholics, or Protestants - they were pure Christ-followers.

Paul addresses division in the church. 1stCor.1:11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[a]”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13Is Christ divided?.." Division was creeping into the church. Paul told them they were wrong. Even though they had created division - clear divisions were in place - they were all members of the body of Christ. Though we may bring division, this does not do anything to the fact that we are part of each other - Christ is not divided even though we may be.

cont…

 

[swplan76]

Now see I can lead you astray, Do you agree? You can lead me astray do you agree? But see the Catholic Church IS JESUS. He said so. So I can not possibly be led astray.

You have to agree that here again, you are adding “Catholic” into the text. He didn’t say He was the “Catholic” church.

The point you are nearly making is that He is going to make sure that we are not lead astray, but this happens through the Holy Spirit (John 14 - 16).

…Remember how he said that many will come and try to teach, but to stay away from them? Stick with the early Fathers of the Church. See he knew this would happen, thats why he warned me. Now what are your thoughts here?

Again, you are adding to the text, scripture says nothing about “the early Fathers of the Church,” not in those words - those words are part of theology developed by people. I think scripture does encourage us to follow the pattern provided to us by leaders in the early church. It also points toward prophecy, scripture, worship, admonishing each other (and some other things) all of which is done through the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

Many people don’t like to put the primary authority upon the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be controlled or manipulated in the same way words can be. I am aware of some denominations of Christianity that try to ignore the Holy Spirit completely (there are exception among them but the majority of them attempt to avoid any discussion of the HS). They believe that being a Christian is about following rules and having the right X+Y=Z s (equations). The James passage I brought up earlier points to the foolishness of that. I think being a follower of Christ is about being open to the leadership of the Holy Spirit and seeking Him with your whole heart.

I’ve known sincere Catholics and I’ve known Catholics who basically believe that God, the Bible and religion are just nice stories we tell children to make us sleep better at night. So, its not about belonging to the right church, its about having the right heart.

 

[sambos671]

You are correct, but they did hold him under house arrest. They also condemned Copernicus’ theory of heliocentricism, which had influenced Galileo.

Now that they’ve discovered that there are black holes at the center of every galaxy will the theory developed in Black Hole centrism? And will I be put under house arrest and questioned by the inquisition for its suggestion?

 

[rinnie]

Hey Rinnie,
Its not about the words you choose, its the role you choose to take in the relationships you are forming online. A problem all kinds of people have is that they want to be the judge. Looking at scripture, God is the judge. In James we are given these words:
“Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. But you are not a judge who can decided whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. God alone who made the law can rightly judge among us He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor?” (James 4:11&12).
And further down it says,
“Don’t grumble about each other, my brothers and sisters, or God will judge you. For look! The great Judge is coming. He is standing at the door!” (James 5:9).

We get in arguments about which church is the right church and this is clearly against what we are told to do in scripture. “Your job is to obey it;” We are called to judge ourselves - Am I the person God wants me to be?

Clearly the passage from James warns us in v.9: “…or God will judge you. For Look!.. He is standing at the door!” Its like James is saying, “God sees what we are doing, don’t pretend that you have His wisdom, or you will be in serious trouble.” If we take on the role of the judge of who is in and who is out, is it as though we are saying to God, “I think I can do your job better than you can.” Not a place we want to be. Its not as though He is absent and He isn’t working on all of us all the time. God wants us all to accept Him and walk with Him through this life and into the next. Its not up to me to force you to see what I see. First of all, my vision of things isn’t perfect - I don’t want you to see like me. Its God’s vision that we need to be after… so, in that respect, I don’t want to see like you - God may have given you something to teach me, but you don’t have His perspective nailed down. You simply cannot contain it - only He can do that.

Nope, I agree. I think you’ll agree that God is leading the church and each of its members through the Holy Spirit. So, primarily God is leading us through the Holy Spirit, right?

I don’t think you’ll be surprised to hear that the Bible doesn’t use the word “Catholic.” In the Churches beginning there was just the Church. I think its important that you recognize that you are adding to the text. The Bible does not differentiate between Catholic and Protestant. When the Bible refers to the Church it is talking about the believers, the body of Christ.

When I hear the Bible say “Church” I don’t think of the Pope, or a building, or a specific denomination. I think of it in context. I don’t think of the early church as Catholics, or Protestants - they were pure Christ-followers.

Paul addresses division in the church. 1stCor.1:11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[a]”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13Is Christ divided?.." Division was creeping into the church. Paul told them they were wrong. Even though they had created division - clear divisions were in place - they were all members of the body of Christ. Though we may bring division, this does not do anything to the fact that we are part of each other - Christ is not divided even though we may be.

cont…

Okay lets start here. Do you believe that Paul, Peter and all of the Apostles started the Catholic CHurch?

 

[motstraumen]

Paul, Peter, Priscilla, Aquilla, Apollos, James the Just, James son of Zebedee, Jude, John (many), Junia, Mary, Mary, Mary, Joseph, Jesse, Lydia, Philip, et al, et al, et al did not start the church, Christ did and they were his followers. And through their testimony Christ began the various “churches” all over the known world from West to East. Their earliest name was “The Way”, based in Jerusalem and radiating out fom there. We belong to Christ alone.