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We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken
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Hesychios
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This is sophistry.
The Popes of that time were preaching Faith and Morals in their daily lives, they were teaching the church what to think of the Gospels. They were not protected from perverting the faith.
"A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."
Look at the qualifications the Apostle gives us for choice of a bishop, there is a good reason for it:
Clearly you are mistaken.
Pax et Bonum,
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motstraumen
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You are a gift, Jon!
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motstraumen
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Well said.
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rinnie
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He really is, He has the patience of a Saint!You are a gift, Jon!
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OneTrueCathApos
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You sound like a broken record because others simply don’t get it. Never sounds old to me though…even though i sound like a broken record??
do you remember records??
And yes, I am up there in age and remember records. 45’s and 78’s…
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OneTrueCathApos
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ALL of Christendom for the first 1500 years were Catholics.That is a gross exaggeration.I certainly do not have my own bible. Any interpretations of scripture that I hold are not the result of personal study in isolation from the rest of Christendom. The accumulated wisdom of nearly two thousand years goes into what I believe – from the ECFs to the Lutheran confessions to modern commentaries (Lutheran, Catholic, and others). I believe that this applies to all confessional Lutherans and, in similar fashion within their own traditions to many other Protestants as well.
I won’t deny that there may be Protestants who fit your description, but it is really inaccurate to paint with as broad a brush as you have.
My 4th graders might beg to differHe really is, He has the patience of a Saint!
, but thank you both, and thanks to the Holy Spirit that my words leave this impression.Jon
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gurneyhalleck1
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That’s great that you’re a teacher, Jon. 4th grade, huh? Public or private? I teach 6th grade.My 4th graders might beg to differ
Jon
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gcnuss
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Or, after 1054, Orthodox. And whether they were Catholic or Orthodox, the Christians of those first 1500 years are our spiritual fathers. Without them, there would not be Christians of any type today.
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DorianGregorian
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While the Orthodox Church does not define the Mystery, they have used the word transubstantiation (see my earlier post).
However I will concede that is a weak point. A stronger point is that the Orthodox Rite of Consencration has a valid Priest, valid Matter, and valid Intent. The Intent of the Church has remained from the beginning (West and East), ergo the East had a valid Eucharist from the beginning ergo they still have a valid Eucharist because their understanding has not changed.
The Lutheran ‘church’ however intended to change the Intent of the Eucharist. They believe in the “sacramental union”, that is that they are receiving Bread, Wine, Body, and Blood. This is in opposition to both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church teaching which teaches that the bread and wine are there per accidens (i.e the accidents of the bread and wine remain), but we do not receive bread or wine. We receive fully and completely the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, who is Truly and Really Present in the Eucharist.
The Anglican ‘church’ while not changing the intent, do not have Valid Priests to Consecrate the Eucharist, because in their Rite of Ordination, there is a defect in the Intent, therefore their ‘priests’ cannot bring about transubstantiation.
The Baptists and most other Protestant ‘churches’ are so totally off as to their understanding of the Eucharist, I don’t even need to explain their many defects.
Laus Deo
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PJM
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Friend you are correct but not “right”, as the point I made is valid and supported by the bible. The God given warranty for the Single TRUTH is for His Church, not those who administer it and for Him.
John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.17 This I command you, to love one another.” Adam. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, Peter and you and me
1 Cor. 12: 27 " Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28* And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts."
And also to you!
For 2000 continous years of service and practice the Catholic Church has existed, grown and maintained: Eph.4: 4 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift I would add also ONE BIBLE, and one set of Dogma’s, Doctrine and Sacred Tradition, most of which date back to the Apostles and are still held and practiced to this very day.
What other church comes even close to this remarkable feet permitted, indeed caused by Chrsit Jesus Himself:thumbsup:
Public.
But, I have to put my daughter through college. Now, when finished, she will be certified to teach in both public and Lutheran parochial schools. I really enjoy teaching, and in my own quiet way, try to exhibit what being a Christian means.
What about you? And do you teach in a middle or elementary setting?
Jon
This is, of course, what a Catholic will and ought to say, though my observation is that the Orthodox are less willing than you to equate your beliefs.
While I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, but the quotes around the word church comes off as uncharitable, almost a finger-in-your-eye type attitude. Every Lutheran and Anglican here knows quite well Rome’s “ecclesial communities” position, and while we don’t agree, they’re welcome to that expression. So, if you don’t want to be seen as implying that Lutherans and Anglicans respectively have a Church, then just say Lutheran (or Anglican) Ecclesial Community.
I might also remind you that, in general and without any attempt to minimize anyone’s charity, my observation is that Lutherans and Anglicans are perhaps the most supportive of Catholics on the forum. Maybe that means nothing, but I thought I’d point out how I interpret the quotes, without trying to read your heart, of course.
Jon
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distracted
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***then who’s right? ***
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rinnie
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If I could also add. The word of God is living and active Heb:4:12 and it has power to build you up and give you heritage among all those who are sanctified act 20:32 1 Thes 2:13.
What I think people need to realize is two different things. God still leads the Church, the Pope and Bishops are as close to God today as the Apostles were over 2000 years ago. Nothing has changed. Jesus promised us, he would not leave us orphans. He would leave us the Church and teachers to teach us what we need to know.
That is why all Clergy must hold fast to the sacred Scriptures by alot of studying. They have to understand scripure so many ways Allegorical Sense, Anagogical Sense, CCC. The Literal Sense, Moral Sense, and Spiritual Sense. What I am saying is it is hard.
You can’t understand the N.T until you understand the O.T. And you can even begin to understand any of it without seeing it in the light of Tradition.
This is an example that I have given to somone else, that was shown to me. A simple line. Adam was put in the garden of eden and told to till it and keep it.
But what did God really say to him. What that meant was to Guard it, Adam will be a Priest. In the Garden of eden God has created a holy place where he meets his Priest Adam face to face.
One simple line and look what it means. Do you see how much we would need to learn. To begin with Hebrew for till means guard. See what I mean?
Ands thats a easy one. Do you guys see that when WE read scripture we are missing so much. And missing simple words like that change the whole meaning of scripture.
What I think people need to realize is two different things. God still leads the Church, the Pope and Bishops are as close to God today as the Apostles were over 2000 years ago. Nothing has changed. Jesus promised us, he would not leave us orphans. He would leave us the Church and teachers to teach us what we need to know.
That is why all Clergy must hold fast to the sacred Scriptures by alot of studying. They have to understand scripure so many ways Allegorical Sense, Anagogical Sense, CCC. The Literal Sense, Moral Sense, and Spiritual Sense. What I am saying is it is hard.
You can’t understand the N.T until you understand the O.T. And you can even begin to understand any of it without seeing it in the light of Tradition.
This is an example that I have given to somone else, that was shown to me. A simple line. Adam was put in the garden of eden and told to till it and keep it.
But what did God really say to him. What that meant was to Guard it, Adam will be a Priest. In the Garden of eden God has created a holy place where he meets his Priest Adam face to face.
One simple line and look what it means. Do you see how much we would need to learn. To begin with Hebrew for till means guard. See what I mean?
Ands thats a easy one. Do you guys see that when WE read scripture we are missing so much. And missing simple words like that change the whole meaning of scripture.
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distracted
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well, anyone who blieves in Christ and really tries to live by what he says… is part of the True Church and already half-Catholic, whether he wants to admit it or not…
just can’t figure out why someone would want to be half- Whatever…
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gcnuss
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Perhaps it indeed remains a mystery, regardless of what words are used to try to explain it. The essential fact is that in the Eucharist the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present. On basis, our beliefs are congruent.
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DorianGregorian
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I respect the right of Lutherans and Anglicans to freely practice their religion in a civil society without fear of Persecution, nor would I cast a personal judgment on somebody in respect to their religion, I have Protestant friends (my sister also), but they are well aware of my beliefs.
The fact is however a Church is defined as a community of Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and Laypeople. newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.html there are no Clergymen in the Anglican or Lutheran community, hence they are not a church, simply an assembly of Christians.
Because the Anglican church and Protestant churches do not have valid Priests or Bishops, it is my duty as a Catholic to refute these claims of being a Church. Are Anglicans and Lutherans my fellow Christians? Of course, but that is as far as it goes.
The fact is that after Vatican II the Church tried to be more PC, and has more and more gown down the road to ecumenism, a road I find troubling. The fact is there is only One True Church, and saying anything else denies the Validity of the Catholic Church. As far as other groups being supportive, that’s fine, but it doesn’t matter if there’s 3,000,000 or 300,000 or 30,000 or 3,000 or 300, or 3 Catholics, popular opinion does not a Church make.
Laus Deo
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DorianGregorian
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You can’t be half Catholic, either you are or you aren’t. You can of course be Christian without being Catholic.well, anyone who blieves in Christ and really tries to live by what he says… is part of the True Church and already half-Catholic, whether he wants to admit it or not…
just can’t figure out why someone would want to be half- Whatever…
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