We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[distracted]

You sound like a broken record because others simply don’t get it. Never sounds old to me though… And yes, I am up there in age and remember records. 45’s and 78’s…

i don’t know… i sometimes think they DO get it but will be damned and go to hell (so to speak, hopefully not literally ) before they’ll admit it…

i think people take thier religion too personally… it seems that if a Catholic ‘attacks’ their protesant religion, they take it as an attack against them personally rather than just attacking a system… (and just using the word Attack say it all… Why i used it is … )

but anyway… i don’t take it personally when someone attacks the Catholic faith because i know that when he does, he does so out of ignorance… (well, at least i HOPE that’ss all it is…) :hypno::coffeeread:

 

[distracted]

You can’t be half Catholic, either you are or you aren’t. You can of course be Christian without being Catholic.

well, you can choose whatever words you wnat to describe this phenomenon… of being Catholic without being Catholic…

but some Protestants are more Cahtolic than so-called Catholics are…

True, that may not be saying much…

there are non-C’s who are more pro-life than some “Catholics” ever thought of being…

(one example… here’s some more)…

some love Jesus more than… (ditto)…

some take the Word more seriously than… (ditto)

I would much rather know one of those than… (ditto)

 

[distracted]

I respect the right of Lutherans and Anglicans to freely practice their religion in a civil society without fear of Persecution, Deo

you ought to study the history of maryland USA…

it was virtually relegated to the Catholics… They made laws that no religion would be persecuted…

the Protestants moved in, gained positions of power… and

surprise surprise…

ousted the Catholics… started persecuting them… changed the laws to be against them…

uch:

 

[onenow1]

well, you can choose whatever words you wnat to describe this phenomenon… of being Catholic without being Catholic…

but some Protestants are more Cahtolic than so-called Catholics are…

True, that may not be saying much…

there are non-C’s who are more pro-life than some “Catholics” ever thought of being…

(one example… here’s some more)…

some love Jesus more than… (ditto)…

some take the Word more seriously than… (ditto)

I would much rather know one of those than… (ditto)

=onenow1: Ditto:

But as a side note, our brothers in Christ have the menu, but we have the menu and the meal.

Peace,onenow1two cents worth.

 

[Hesychios]

While I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, but the quotes around the word church comes off as uncharitable, almost a finger-in-your-eye type attitude.

There was a time when, in the old Eastern Christianities section (long since shut down) of CAF, putting quotes like that would earn one a brief suspension. It really was thought of as a finger in the eye.

 

[Hesychios]

you ought to study the history of maryland USA…

it was virtually relegated to the Catholics… They made laws that no religion would be persecuted…

the Protestants moved in, gained positions of power… and

surprise surprise…

ousted the Catholics… started persecuting them… changed the laws to be against them…

uch:

That’s true. The colonies founder Lord Calvert, being of the minority Catholic community, wanted to set a good example.

Ironically that changed because the Calvert family became Anglican. At least I remember reading that somewhere, so I could be wrong.

Then of course, the Spanish did the same thing in the new world. One might call it a tyranny of the majority.

 

[JonNC]

There was a time when, in the old Eastern Christianities section (long since shut down) of CAF, putting quotes like that would earn one a brief suspension. It really was thought of as a finger in the eye.

I’m happy you chimed in on it, because after posting I thought, well, maybe I’m being too sensitive. It seems to me its like if I wrote “Orrthodox” Church, to imply I really think you’re heterodox, or “Holy” Catholic Church, hinting I don’t really think its holy.

But DorianGregorian explained his reasons, the first being his communion’s position (which I had already acknowledged), and then his distaste for the thawing of relations between our communions through ecumenism, a position I’m saddened to hear.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I

The fact is that after Vatican II the Church tried to be more PC,

Hmm, I thought it was because they felt they were responding to Chirst’s call that we all be one.
I respect your position, though I will say a prayer of thanksgiving tomorrow that your leadership does not hold your views on the issue of ecumenism.

Blessings to you,
Jon

 

[DorianGregorian]

Hmm, I thought it was because they felt they were responding to Chirst’s call that we all be one.
I respect your position, though I will say a prayer of thanksgiving tomorrow that your leadership does not hold your views on the issue of ecumenism.

Blessings to you,
Jon

And to you too!

However there have been many people in my Church who held my view on ecumenicism such as St. Pius X and Blessed Pius XII,

Also let us note that the 1917 Code of Canon Law forbade participation in non-Catholic Religions, the change in 1983 was made for political rather than religious reasons.

I have no problem with welcoming Protestant ‘churches’ back into Communion with Rome, however I have a major problem of sacrificing the truth for the sake of false unity.

Laus Deo

 

[rinnie]

Distracted, if I may. trust me on one thing. You know where you are at, and where you need to be. Do not let anyone lead you from the fullness of the truth. It all comes back to that. Do the math my love. Start from the get go, who broke off first, you will be close to the truth, who second. further from the truth, and so on and so on. Now go back to the get go. Who never broke off. There you Go. Kinda where you started from. Stay where you are. It was revealed to YOU. You are special. Do not let anyone lead you astray.

While I love my Lutheran brothers and sisters. I still will NEVER EVER leave the fullness of the Truth,

ITS ME AND THE POPE, TILL THE END. YOU ARE PETER, THAT WHAT MY DEAR JESUS SAID, AND AS LONG AS OLE PETER GOT THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM. I THINK WE ALL CAN SUPPLY THE GAS IF YOU CATCH MY DRIFT. PETER GOT THE KEYS, GOD GOT THE CAR, AND THE TANK IS ON FULL! IT MAY BE A LONG RIDE, BUT SIT BACK AND ENJOY THE VIEW! THE KINGDOM IS AT HAND!

 

[rinnie]

One more thing before I sign off for the night. Remember Distracted, who else has the POPE MOBILE See we are good to Go.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Public. But, I have to put my daughter through college. Now, when finished, she will be certified to teach in both public and Lutheran parochial schools.
I really enjoy teaching, and in my own quiet way, try to exhibit what being a Christian means.
What about you? And do you teach in a middle or elementary setting?

Jon

Hey Jon,

Sixth grade, elementary school. I LOVE teaching sixth grade, man. It’s awesome. We teach the ancient world from the Mesopotamians to Egypt, China to Israel (and we get to teach Judaism, OT!), Greece, Rome (Christianity included! Yes, I know, shocking! especially since we’re in California! lol).

I really enjoy that we get to teach comparative religions. I’m extremely fair in teaching Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. I love teaching Christianity and exposing the kids to the early fathers. Our textbook itself has Polycarp, mentions the papacy, and talks about sacraments, etc. We discuss the Eucharist, threefold ministry, sacramental theology, etc. I even inject Martin Luther into the lesson at the end. They love my power points that I throw in! lol When we study Rome I have a 300-slide show. I have 180 or so slides when I retell Homer’s The Odyessey! lol

I really enjoy the challenges of sixth grade. I love the difficult math, the writing, the books we read, etc.

Did your kids go to private Lutheran school or public with you?

Scott

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is, of course, what a Catholic will and ought to say, though my observation is that the Orthodox are less willing than you to equate your beliefs.

While I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, but the quotes around the word church comes off as uncharitable, almost a finger-in-your-eye type attitude. Every Lutheran and Anglican here knows quite well Rome’s “ecclesial communities” position, and while we don’t agree, they’re welcome to that expression. So, if you don’t want to be seen as implying that Lutherans and Anglicans respectively have a Church, then just say Lutheran (or Anglican) Ecclesial Community.
I might also remind you that, in general and without any attempt to minimize anyone’s charity, my observation is that Lutherans and Anglicans are perhaps the most supportive of Catholics on the forum. Maybe that means nothing, but I thought I’d point out how I interpret the quotes, without trying to read your heart, of course.

Jon

I’ve made the same observations here recently about the quotations. It’s like a replacement for the word “pseudo” or “quasi” or “wannabe.” I agree with your point about Anglicans and Lutherans being more supportive and positive toward Catholicism in CAF. While Episcopalians tend to come here to trash Catholicism and rant about how intolerant and neanderthal we are, Anglicans tend to be more positive and at least interested. Lutherans are much the same. I think many Catholics, too, are fascinated by Martin Luther and, even if we disagree with many of his conclusions, hold a respect or fascination for him. I’m repelled by his anti-semitism to put it mildly but I love reading much of his work. It’s brilliant. I think I’ve read the Bainton book, “Here I Stand” about six or seven times through. Riveting, and that’s just a primer. Catholics and Lutherans or Anglicans can learn a lot about each other in a civil discussion. Being a former Anglican I have some affection and interest in Anglicanism as well…Episcopalian?..now that’s another talk show! LOL

 

[JonNC]

Hey Jon,

Sixth grade, elementary school. I LOVE teaching sixth grade, man. It’s awesome. We teach the ancient world from the Mesopotamians to Egypt, China to Israel (and we get to teach Judaism, OT!), Greece, Rome (Christianity included! Yes, I know, shocking! especially since we’re in California! lol).

I really enjoy that we get to teach comparative religions. I’m extremely fair in teaching Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. I love teaching Christianity and exposing the kids to the early fathers. Our textbook itself has Polycarp, mentions the papacy, and talks about sacraments, etc. We discuss the Eucharist, threefold ministry, sacramental theology, etc. I even inject Martin Luther into the lesson at the end. They love my power points that I throw in! lol When we study Rome I have a 300-slide show. I have 180 or so slides when I retell Homer’s The Odyessey! lol

I really enjoy the challenges of sixth grade. I love the difficult math, the writing, the books we read, etc.

Did your kids go to private Lutheran school or public with you?

Scott

Hi Scott,
Sounds like you can really (legally ) expose the kids to faith, and that is a great thing. I taught, part time, 6th grade math in a small private (Episcopal) school before we moved to NC and it really was challenging for the kids. a lot of fun!!
Our kids mainly went to public school as no Lutheran schools were available. My daughter, however, went through 5th grade at that Episcopal school, and our son went for a short time to a Catholic School.
While I teach 4th, I really prefer 5th, which I taught for a number of years. The math is more challenging, I love US History, and the kids are more mature. But 4th is fine, too.
Jon

 

[eric51]

That is a gross exaggeration. I certainly do not have my own bible. Any interpretations of scripture that I hold are not the result of personal study in isolation from the rest of Christendom. The accumulated wisdom of nearly two thousand years goes into what I believe – from the ECFs to the Lutheran confessions to modern commentaries (Lutheran, Catholic, and others). I believe that this applies to all confessional Lutherans and, in similar fashion within their own traditions to many other Protestants as well.

I won’t deny that there may be Protestants who fit your description, but it is really inaccurate to paint with as broad a brush as you have.

I do not mean to be obnoxious, but neither “lutheran confessions” nor “protestant commentaries” are in the same category as scripture or the ECFs. In fact, they tend to be in conflict.

What I was saying in my earlier post is protestantism’ formal sufficiency is PRIVATE JUDGMENT. Private judgment makes a mockery of Absolute Truth.

In Christ

 

[JonNC]

=eric51;5353685]I do not mean to be obnoxious, but neither “lutheran confessions” nor “protestant commentaries” are in the same category as scripture or the ECFs

On this we agree.

In fact, they tend to be in conflict.

Regarding the Lutheran Confessions, we respectfully disagree.

What I was saying in my earlier post is protestantism’ formal sufficiency is PRIVATE JUDGMENT.

I think what Pastor Gary was trying to tell you is that, for Lutheranism, this is not the case.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

On this we agree.

Regarding the Lutheran Confessions, we respectfully disagree.

I think what Pastor Gary was trying to tell you is that, for Lutheranism, this is not the case.

Jon

Hi Jon, Excuse my ignorance I am only asking because I do not know. Now in confession in your Church, Do you guys confess like us to a priest alone. Okay if you do I agree it is very much alike. Now I though that the only way that anything could be valid in any Catholic Church it had to be in communion with Rome? Now is your Priest ordained and does he have the sacrament of Holy Orders to offer the forgiveness of sins. Again not being sarcastic I do not know?

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon, Excuse my ignorance I am only asking because I do not know. Now in confession in your Church, Do you guys confess like us to a priest alone. Okay if you do I agree it is very much alike. Now I though that the only way that anything could be valid in any Catholic Church it had to be in communion with Rome? Now is your Priest ordained and does he have the sacrament of Holy Orders to offer the forgiveness of sins. Again not being sarcastic I do not know?

There are two issues here, rinnie. The main issue is how do Lutherans do it?
The answer is confession is offered to a Lutheran in 2 forms. One is corporate/public confession during a typical divine service on a Sunday morning. The second form is in private confession to a pastor/confessor, which is probably not dissimilar to Catholic confession, at least in form if not content. In Luther’s small catechism, he outlines how we might confess, and this is the format that one will usually see in a Lutheran setting, regardless of synod.
bookofconcord.com/smallcatechism.php#confession

The second issue is the question of validity of Lutheran clergy, and therefore sacraments, as most, though not all, Lutherans are outside of apostolic succession. Without going into too much detail, this is a disagreement our communions have with each other. Sufficient to say that the Lutheran Confessions point to divine law and the historic use of presbyter ordination even within the Church prior to the Reformation. That’s not to say that Lutherans don’t value or reject AS. In fact, we believe it is desirable and preferable, as it demonstrates the unity of Christ’s Church. So, to answer your question, “*Now I thought that the only way that anything could be valid in any Catholic Church it had to be in communion with Rome? Now is your Priest ordained and does he have the sacrament of Holy Orders to offer the forgiveness of sins. *.” Rome says, no he doesn’t. Our Confession says, yes he does.
OTOH, Lutherans recognize the Catholic priesthood and sacraments as valid.

Jon

 

[DorianGregorian]

OTOH, Lutherans recognize the Catholic priesthood and sacraments as valid.

Because there would be no Lutheran community if there weren’t a Catholic Church.

 

[JonNC]

Because there would be no Lutheran community if there weren’t a Catholic Church.

I don’t think that’s deniable.
Jon