We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[JonNC]

Jon,

That may be true for some, but there are many who, despite Called to Common Mission (the ELCA-Episcopal agreement), wouldn’t claim any such thing and, in fact, would reject it. There is a very ardent congregationalist strain in the ELCA, predominant among those who were formerly in the ALC. They aren’t interested in AS in any shape or form if it involves recognizing any church authority outside of the local congregation.

I have painted with a broad brush. I am a product of the ALC – in my formative, i.e., confirmation, years. However, I now number myself among the Evangelical Catholics and recognize value of restoring AS within the ELCA.

Yes, I was ELCA when Called to Common Mission was first voted on and many of the upper mid-west (former) ALC folks were against it. Congregationist sentiments are pervasive, as you know, in the LCMS, and I believe it leads to improper practices, etc.

I’ve often wondered, other than this congregationist approach to polity, why American Lutherans haven’t done more to increase AS, as it is in the lines of our Lutheran brethren elsewhere in the world. Seems it would be readily available, and our confessions support it. Maybe you have some thoughts.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

And ELCA clergy now claim AS through the Episcopal lines. But then, the Catholic Church considers them invalid.

Hi rinnie,
And I wouldn’t expect you to see it any other way. You are Catholic. That is what Rome teaches. And if typed here that I agreed with you, you’d think me nuts for knowingly staying in a Church where I could not receive either the sacrament of Confession and Holy Absolution, or the Eucharist. So, hoping you don’t take me as totally stupid, you can probably figure out that yesterday, when my pastor said “as a called and ordained servant of Christ and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen”, I know my sins were forgiven. And when he said the words of institution, I know that the bread and wine became the body and blood of Christ for me to receive.

I firmly believe that the day will come when our respective clergies will once again be one under AS, but until that time I am certain of our’s validity, as certain as I am of your’s.

Jon

I would never think you were stupid Jon, or anyone for that fact. I just think that some things can be easier for some to see than others. God reveals to all what he wants them to see when they are ready to see it. Not before. It is not for I to judge anyone. Only God knows our heart and soul. God loves us all, and he will lead us all to the truth in his own time and way.

 

[JonNC]

I just think that some things can be easier for some to see than others. God reveals to all what he wants them to see when they are ready to see it. Not before. It is not for I to judge anyone. Only God knows our heart and soul. God loves us all, and he will lead us all to the truth in his own time and way.

I agree. Thanks.
Jon

 

[GKC]

I was kidding. I prefer Gregorian’s answer

Ok. I like mine. It’s more accurate.

GKC

 

[GKC]

If it does to the Anglican it would to the Episcopal, but after the Episcopal Church in the US started ordaining Women as Bishops, it might be up in the air, since High Church Anglicans wouldn’t allow that.

High Church Anglicans, or even Anglo-Catholics, couldn’t stop it. Not that all tried.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[GKC]

Does this extend to the Episcopal Church, as well?

Jon

Generically, yes, the Episcopal Church being, of course, part of the Anglican Communion, and the list of Anglican bishops whose lines included OC/PNCCC co-consecrators, includes Episcopal ones. In my particular case, +Chambers, the one time Bishop of Springfield, who consecrated the bishop who ordained my rector. The Dutch Touch is spread widely, within Anglicanism.

GKC

 

[sambos671]

Ok. I like mine. It’s more accurate.

GKC

Well, you’re explination seems kind of lacking in some details.

 

[sambos671]

Generically, yes, the Episcopal Church being, of course, part of the Anglican Communion, and the list of Anglican bishops whose lines included OC/PNCCC co-consecrators, includes Episcopal ones. In my particular case, +Chambers, the one time Bishop of Springfield, who consecrated the bishop who ordained my rector. The Dutch Touch is spread widely, within Anglicanism.

GKC

So accordingly the “Dutch Touch” (I’m not certain of the name) has pretty much allowed for all (or the majority of ) ministers in Anglicanism and certainly all bishops to be valid under the view of the Catholic Church? Is this what you’re saying?

 

[eric51]

Eric,

As I have said in other places, Lutheran teaching did not arise out of nothing five hundred years ago and it certainly does not arise out of our individual interpretations of scripture.

Then where does belief in Sola Fide fit in? Nowhere prior to Luther have christian theologians interpreted Scripture so to believe that faith alone [belief alone] saves a believer.

It is true that “faith” in a theological sense incorporates works of charity, is action-oriented. But this has not been the interpretation in practice which adherents of Sola Fide espouse.

In Christ

 

[gcnuss]

Then where does belief in Sola Fide fit in? Nowhere prior to Luther have christian theologians interpreted Scripture so to believe that faith alone [belief alone] saves a believer.

Eric,

Luther wrote, in his Smalcald Articles:

XIII. How One is Justified before God, and of Good Works.

1] What I have hitherto and constantly taught concerning this I know not how to change in the least, namely, that by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.

2] And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ’s sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. 3] Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1:31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. 4] We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.

The sentences I bolded are at the heart of Lutheran teaching. True faith saves and true faith necessarily produces good works. I guess it comes down to a question of whether we do good works because we are saved or that we are saved because we do good works. Lutherans respond with the former.

 

[GKC]

Well, you’re explination seems kind of lacking in some details.

Oh, I dunno. My posts 649, 650 and 663 seem to have some details, IMO. But it you want more, just ask. Apostolicae Curae, as with a lot of other topics (some of which actually bear on religious issues), is a long time hobby of mine.

GKC

 

[GKC]

So accordingly the “Dutch Touch” (I’m not certain of the name) has pretty much allowed for all (or the majority of ) ministers in Anglicanism and certainly all bishops to be valid under the view of the Catholic Church? Is this what you’re saying?

Dutch Touch is a common way of referring to the infusion into Anglicanism, through consecrations, of the valid episcopal lines of the Old Catholics of Utrecht, following the Bonn agreement between the Anglican Communion and the Old Catholics (Utrecht), in 1932. Since the OCs (Utrecht) are based in the Netherlands, the term Dutch Touch arose. Joint consecrations began that year, and continued. The point was that such infusion of the OC lines into the Anglican Communion didn’t stop at those particular Anglican prelates. They were continually dispersed throughout the Anglican Communion, as those Anglican bishops, in turn, consecrated additional Anglican bishops, and so forth.

As to what this means for the RCC, no. As I said, somewhere, the RCC has never made any sort of statement directly on the issue. Logically, it would follow that such bishops would be viewed as validly, but illicitly consecrated (per Ott, p. 458), assuming other sacramental issues were valid. But there is no statement from the RCC on the issue.

OTOH, there have been two known sub conditione ordinations to the priesthood of former Anglican clerics, since 1958. It has been speculated that this point, of the Dutch Touch, might have played a part in those. But nothing is known, for certain.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[DorianGregorian]

Dutch Touch is a common way of referring to the infusion into Anglicanism, through consecrations, of the valid episcopal lines of the Old Catholics of Utrecht, following the Bonn agreement between the Anglican Communion and the Old Catholics (Utrecht), in 1932. Since the OCs (Utrecht) are based in the Netherlands, the term Dutch Touch arose. Joint consecrations began that year, and continued. The point was that such infusion of the OC lines into the Anglican Communion didn’t stop at those particular Anglican prelates. They were continually dispersed throughout the Anglican Communion, as those Anglican bishops, in turn, consecrated additional Anglican bishops, and so forth.

As to what this means for the RCC, no. As I said, somewhere, the RCC has never made any sort of statement directly on the issue. Logically, it would follow that such bishops would be viewed as validly, but illicitly consecrated (per Ott, p. 458), assuming other sacramental issues were valid. But there is no statement from the RCC on the issue.

OTOH, there have been two known sub conditione ordinations to the priesthood of former Anglican clerics, since 1958. It has been speculated that this point, of the Dutch Touch, might have played a part in those. But nothing is known, for certain.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

However one would have to assume that the Bishops had proper intent when ordaining, and given the different theological beliefs between High and Low Church Anglicans, there would need to be an examination of what’s happened as far as the “Dutch Touch.”

 

[GKC]

However one would have to assume that the Bishops had proper intent when ordaining, and given the different theological beliefs between High and Low Church Anglicans, there would need to be an examination of what’s happened as far as the “Dutch Touch.”

As I said, there would have to be other, valid considerations, that is matter, form and intent.

But I’ve had this discussion recently on a slightly different topic. In summary, without a specific external indication that the minister of the sacrament does not intend facere quod facit ecclesia, (the minimum intent for sacramental validity) which would permit a determinatio ex adiunctius, the act (using valid form and matter) is taken for the intention, as is spelled out in Apostolicae Curae. Which is why the judgment in* AC* involves an intertwined consideration of the form of the Edwardine Ordinal and the intent of those who consecrated +Parker, in 1559.

GKC

 

[distracted]

The Old Catholic Church was a group of Catholics who split after Vatican I over Papal Infallibility. They have Valid Apostolic succession according to the C.C, and a very small minority of Anglican ‘bishops’ were given Holy Orders by the O.C Bishops. So there is a very small portion of the Anglican community that has maintained valid Apostolic Succession.

Laus Deo

hmmm… seems that they are apostates… for leaving the true Church…

so i guess even an apostate can consecrate the host???

you are a priest forever after the order of Mechizedek…

 

[GKC]

hmmm… seems that they are apostates… for leaving the true Church…

so i guess even an apostate can consecrate the host???

you are a priest forever after the order of Mechizedek…

Schismatics.

But yes, schismatic, apostate, heretic or excommunicate. Again, there is a lengthy discussion of this, re: Fr. Cutie.

GKC

 

[Hesychios]

hmmm… seems that they are apostates… for leaving the true Church…

so i guess even an apostate can consecrate the host???

you are a priest forever after the order of Mechizedek…

If they are really bishops, according to the definition of your church, then they are a type of Catholic.

I would say cafeteria catholics of the first order.

 

[jean8]

I completely understand and i am completely obedient to the bishops and to the church. Especially when the bishops of the catholic church and the pope encourage us to preach the faith no metter where we are. I’ve said numerous times that i’m not against unity with other churches but the catholic church will not compromise the faith, The article you posted actually confirms that as well when it says there are still areas that divide us in faith (not exact quoting but something along those lines).

louie,
I,m sorry to hear that you are more obedient to bishops than you are to the word of God.
Did you actually read the passages about judging others? What do you think the Lord is telling you in his word? Are you being obedient to your Savior or a mere man?

Praying for you,
jean

 

[Eleve]

Oi. Catholics believe that the Word of God is not entirely contained in Scriptures, but is also passed down from Apostolic times through the Church. Loyalty to bishops does not mean disloyalty to Scripture or to the Word of God.

 

[Louie1983]

louie,
I,m sorry to hear that you are more obedient to bishops than you are to the word of God.
Did you actually read the passages about judging others? What do you think the Lord is telling you in his word? Are you being obedient to your Savior or a mere man?

Praying for you,
jean

Oh dear.

If you are going to make such a statement it might be best to actually understand what that means. Where did i say that i was not obedient to the word of god? If you had read the thread and my previous comments you probably would have understood what i was talking about.

My point was that i am obedient to the bishops of the church (i.e the magisterium) because the magisterium is loyal to the word of god. Now jean, what do Catholics know about the word of God? they know it’s not only contained in the scriptures it has also been passed down orally through traditions.

Can you show me where i am judging since you make a reference about judging others?

Yes i am being completely obedient to my saviour as i clearly articulated this to motsraumen and Jon. You might want to go back and read the threads and look at the quotes i provided which show are scriptural proof as well early church father proof about the magisterium.

I’ll be praying for you to Jean.