We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

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Hogwash. That’s a patently false statement.

The World Methodist Council is made up of over 70 Wesleyan denominations, which is in constant ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion (made up of 38 provinces), and the Lutheran World Federation (made up of 130 bodies).

That 30,000 number is quite the misnomer - and more rhetoric than reality.
Hello O.S. Luke,

I am one who is appreciative of the dialogue and pray for unity of the one body of Christ, which is His Church.

I realize the 30,000 denominations number, thrown out so often, is made up of some denominations listed multiple times, due to slight differences, but let’s say the number is actually 3,000 denominations. Isn’t that too many? Personally, I feel 300 is too many and is not what Christ intended when He built His Church. I think those that use the 30,000 are trying to emphasize the division that needs to be addressed.
 

The Jews tried to destroy it and they in turn were almost totally destroyed in 70 AD.
The Catholic Church is still here.

The Romans tried to destroy it, but they in turn were destroyed and their entire empire
collapsed in 471.
The Catholic Church is still here.

The Moslems tried to destroy it in the middle ages, and failed.
The Catholic Church is still here.

The Protestants tried to destroy it in the reformation and failed, and look what happened
to them. The Church of Protestantism, which Luther founded, was from the very beginning
cracked and splintered. Look at Protestantism today, over 36,400 splinters, with more
cropping up every day.
The Catholic Church is still here.

Hitler tried to destroy it and failed. Where is he and his 1000 year Reich now?
The Catholic Church is still here.

Communism tried to destroy it and failed, and where is communism today?
The Catholic Church is still here.

Why do you think the Catholic Church has endured all these attacks for almost two millennia?
It is because it was founded by Jesus Christ and is guarded from within and from without
by Him and the Holy Spirit, that is why. Christ guaranteed the perpetuality of His ONLY Church.
Isa 59:21, Matt 16:18, Matt 28:20, John 14:16-17, Eph 5:23, 1Tim 4:16
 
Hitler tried to destroy it and failed. Where is he and his 1000 year Reich now?
The Catholic Church is still here.
How did Hitler try to destroy the Catholic Church? In fact, He used the Catholic Church to inspire his troops that he was right. So in what way did he try to destroy the Catholic Church?
 
I can reply that they do not only seem to be so, but that they are actually dead sure. What would be the use of any bureau for the dispensing of authentic information, if the officials had to warn inquirers that there was not even certainty as to whether they had gone to the right inquiry office! No. The True church which is really Christ’s own bureau for the dispensing of authentic information to mankind in His Name, must be visibly discernible as His. The invisible and undiscernible Church theory is impossible, and as I have just said, opposed to the Will of Christ.
Furthermore, Protestants are brought up with the idea that it is not possible for any human being to locate the True Church. So they continue in religious matters to wander where they will, like people in a forest, who follow any line of tracks without bothering to ask where it leads. And they love the risky adventure of experimenting for themselves that they search Scripture for every possible text which they think will support them…go figure…🤷


“They”

You are speaking for quite a large number of people.

I know many who call themselves Catholics who disagree with you whole heartedly. Many Catholics I know do not even believe that Jesus is the only way to God. Many of them believe that any other religion is a fine way for people to go if it is the path they have chosen. Many Catholics I know follow the traditions of Catholicism, but find the wisdom with which they live their lives from other sources, like astrology, or new age healing practices. There are also many Catholics I know who believe that Jesus came to start His church and His church is not defined by the sign on the lawn. His church is defined by the dirt on our hands as we seek to walk in His way; its defined by His love that resides in people across various denominations of Christianity.

Many protestant denominations are also open to that idea, but many of them are legalistic and believe they are the only “true church.” They believe their practices make them right in God’s eyes, leaving everyone else in Hell.

I personally believe that I am wrong. I believe that we are all wrong in some ways and right in others. I believe that The way of Jesus, His way is so vast that it is constantly being unraveled as I seek Him. I will never be done learning and I will never have Him completely figured out. In the mean time, there are various things that I have wrong, that are being reconfigured through time. I am not perfect - He is perfect.

Read John 14-16
Jesus ushers in the age of the leadership of the Spirit. I believe I am being led by the Spirit and I believe I am not alone. I am in the company of many people across various denominations. I have met people in the Catholic church and many protestants who have been confronted with this reality and in talking with them, we share a bond through the Holy Spirit that goes beyond denominational affiliation.
 

The Jews tried to destroy it and they in turn were almost totally destroyed in 70 AD.
The Catholic Church is still here.

The Romans tried to destroy it, but they in turn were destroyed and their entire empire
collapsed in 471.
The Catholic Church is still here.

The Moslems tried to destroy it in the middle ages, and failed.
The Catholic Church is still here.

The Protestants tried to destroy it in the reformation and failed, and look what happened
to them. The Church of Protestantism, which Luther founded, was from the very beginning
cracked and splintered. Look at Protestantism today, over 36,400 splinters, with more
cropping up every day.
The Catholic Church is still here.

Hitler tried to destroy it and failed. Where is he and his 1000 year Reich now?
The Catholic Church is still here.

Communism tried to destroy it and failed, and where is communism today?
The Catholic Church is still here.

Why do you think the Catholic Church has endured all these attacks for almost two millennia?
It is because it was founded by Jesus Christ and is guarded from within and from without
by Him and the Holy Spirit, that is why. Christ guaranteed the perpetuality of His ONLY Church.
Isa 59:21, Matt 16:18, Matt 28:20, John 14:16-17, Eph 5:23, 1Tim 4:16
I find the generalizations in this statement slightly offensive. 1) The Jews didn’t try to destroy the Catholic Church. There was a corrupt government and priesthood in Jerusalem, that is why she fell.
2) The Reformation was not to destroy the Catholic Church, it was a revolt against corruption in her leadership.
3) Hitler was a made man that wanted to take over all the world. He was genocide the Jews, not the Catholic Church.
4) The original Apostles were all Jews.
50 The same argument can be made for the Jewish faith. It is still here and has been around for 5,000 years.
Peace be with you
 
I am one who is appreciative of the dialogue and pray for unity of the one body of Christ, which is His Church.
I am too - and pray for the same thing.
I realize the 30,000 denominations number, thrown out so often, is made up of some denominations listed multiple times, due to slight differences, but let’s say the number is actually 3,000 denominations. Isn’t that too many? Personally, I feel 300 is too many and is not what Christ intended when He built His Church. I think those that use the 30,000 are trying to emphasize the division that needs to be addressed.
Of course even 300 is too many. But OTCA stated that “They can’t agree with even any one of their sects”, a statement which is simply and utterly untrue, as I showed through the councils and communions. There are also eucharistic sharing agreements between Anglicans, Methodists, and Lutherans.

Maybe some are comfortable using the “30,000” number to emphasize whatever argument they are making. But using an untruth to make a point about their faith is dishonest at best; I would think that in Christian apologetics, the ends cannot justify the means.

O+
 

That is the kind of arrogance & pride that can always been turned upside down. It was nothing once, & to nothing it can easily return. It’s been said, & very truly, that the Church is never more than one generation away from destruction​

Some abuses for you by 1517:​

  • trafficking in relics
  • trafficking in false relics
  • clerical concubinage
  • bastard offspring of these concubines (politely called “nephews”)
  • holding of several benefices simultaneously, so as to gain their revenues
  • trafficking in indulgences (which the Council of Trent explicitly admitted & deplored)
  • the other face of pluralism - non-residence by bishops (one bishop entered his cathedral for the first time at his funeral)
  • failure to provide bishops for vacant sees (a see in Iceland was vacant for 100 (one hundred) years)
  • a swarming clerical proletariat of men with no education & no vocation (no seminaries existed yet)
  • pervasive superstition & ignorance (St. Peter Canisius noticed this in Germany)
  • and so it goes on…
The Church was in a horrible condition, & these horrors are not less horrid for not being the entire picture. To say “[t]here were no abuses within the Catholic church” is very off-putting when people are aware that there were. It’s ignorant at best to say were none, & at worst, it’s dishonest. And how is it good to defend a Church - a supposedly Christian body - with dishonesty ? The world is full of lies: if the Church has only more lies to offer, then it is a moral danger, & the sooner it is destroyed, the better.
Did Jesus pick 12 Apostle all men and of the 12 one was bad,its hard being a human.
 
Jerome and Chrystostom were the church fathers who called Junia an apostle.
who is junia??
I believe they are clearly recognized in the Roman Church as having some authority, but maybe not by mr. Distracted?
what does Jerome (etc) have to do with what we were discussing?
I’m not a Mr.
If that makes your church Man-made, so be it. I agree with you the Roman Church did come before Luther, he sought only to bring it back from the man-made errors that it had fallen into.
In the beginning Luther had some good ideas… but his ego got the best of him (my opinion). And he did not try to bring the Church back from man-made errors… only those IN the Church.,… only a non-Catholic would say this…
Trent agreed on some of these points, as did Vatican II. What is clear-cut to you is not so in your own church.
what isn’t? you don’t post my remark so i don’t know…
So distracted, you are distracted.
yes i am… but not about what you think…
have changed my mind on some misconceptions I have held about the Roman Church, we also seek to do the same. Guess what, that is what DIALOGUE is all about. And another by the way, your authority, your Bishops and your Pope seek this dialogue. ?
again, you don’t post what comments i made… so i have no idea how to answer…
 
No, I think not.

When the various parts of the New Testament were written there was, as yet, no Patristic Tradition.
I agree, it is a shame and he was a gifted scholar.

In fact he was undeniably more honest, more sincere about his vocation and had more experience as a priest than the Pope had. I can see why, when push came to shove, he had to make a stand.

The old Catholic Encyclopedia itself concedes: I should refer to the existence of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (mentioned here previously by hansard). In many ways Lutheran theology is not very far removed from Latin Catholic theology. The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

And it appears that on the major points of Luther’s original 95 thesis for which he was silenced, the Latin Catholic church has conceded.

I am not a Lutheran but I see that far too often he gets a bum rap. He was not perfect of course, but let us see what he was up against: A very nearly ruined and corrupt church with incompetent leadership that resisted genuine reform as long as it possibly could, actually it could not be moved to act until it was in serious danger of collapsing completely.

The Council of Trent was not called together until a full twenty-five years had elapsed, and it took about eighteen years to conclude. After which the Catholic Reformation was finally underway. All that delay was unnecessary and damaging.
The Latin church did change it’s theology over time, and even now there are people advocating new dogmas. :eek:

My point here is that in his own inventiveness Father Martin was quite in keeping with his tradition, the tradition of the Latin Catholic church to reinterpret the Gospel.
The teaching’s of the Church have not changed ever. Martin had no authority to reinterpret the Gospel. He did not keep in with the teaching’s of the Church that is why it broke away. I believe that something more also was going on with him. He was tormented with voices. There was something major going on with him I don’t know if it was a mental breakdown of some sort or what. But no offense but the man had many emotional problems. The point is and always will be no Priest has the authority to break away and teach according to his own ideals. The Pope is still the leader of the Church with his Bishops and always will be. You cannot just pick up and start another Church just because you disagree. Again he had no authority to do what he did, and that is why he was thrown out of the Church.
 
As a Lutheran, your “religion” is founded by Martin Luther, is it not? And if you say it is not, please tell me when and how it was founded.
Why the quotations around the word “religion?” Lutheranism is a valid religion despite your not agreeing with it? Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are all religions? Why put quotations implying that it’s illegitimate?
 
To say Luther was a heretic who caused confusion and chaos is to you an attack? Go figure…there was nothing wrong with the Catholic church at the time of the Reformation, except people like Luther who imagined it.
I have to take issue with this statement that there was “nothing wrong” with Catholicism at the time. Whether folks want to admit it or not, there was rampant corruption. There was the selling of indulgences, money for salvation. I’ve heard several of my fellow Catholics claim that indulgences were not “sold” but rather donations were optional. Reading about guys like Tetzel and history you’ll see that this was often not the case. Indulgences were corrupt.

Also the lay people generally only took communion once per year and the laity had little role in the Mass.

Bishoprics were often bought and sold, many priests and some bishops were not even really literate in scripture. Benefices were expected and purchased, etc.

Some popes in the middle ages, especially the Medici popes, lived debauched personal lives and were not a good example. I know many would say that their personal lives are not their official ex cathedra lives but it still matters. Living by example is crucial.

Martin Luther himself was horrified when he went to Rome if you read his memoirs. He saw priests taking up with prostitutes, his fellow priests from Rome criticized him for saying Mass too slowly and with too much care, and people climbed up stone steps on their knees saying pater nosters thinking they could get indulgences.

The culture of relics got out of hand in the middle ages. You can read about people claiming they had everything from splinters of Christ’s Cross to St. Mary’s girdle to Jesus’s swaddling blanket.

The quality of overall clergy and corruption was high. As Catholics, we should be able to admit this and realize that these things happen. Look at our own clerical pedaphilia issues in the last several years.

Martin Luther, Zwingli, Bucer, Cranmer and company lived during these times. Protestantism broke off seeking to reform the Church. We Catholics tend to believe that some of them threw out the baby with the bath water and some Catholics believe that nothing whatsoever was wrong with our Church at the time. Some believe that the whole thing was unfortunate and it was just a product of the move toward nationalism. Others feel that these men had good consciences, meant well, and truly loved Christ, feeling they were doing the right thing breaking off.

It’s just oversimplification to say that nothing was wrong. I think it’s like saying, “as a Republican, I supported the Iraq War but think it wasn’t well-prosecuted” vs. saying “the war war perfect from day one and not one mistake was made, flawless.” One can be a good Republican and admit faults and stumbling.
 
I have to take issue with this statement that there was “nothing wrong” with Catholicism at the time. Whether folks want to admit it or not, there was rampant corruption. There was the selling of indulgences, money for salvation. I’ve heard several of my fellow Catholics claim that indulgences were not “sold” but rather donations were optional. Reading about guys like Tetzel and history you’ll see that this was often not the case. Indulgences were corrupt.

Also the lay people generally only took communion once per year and the laity had little role in the Mass.

Bishoprics were often bought and sold, many priests and some bishops were not even really literate in scripture. Benefices were expected and purchased, etc.

Some popes in the middle ages, especially the Medici popes, lived debauched personal lives and were not a good example. I know many would say that their personal lives are not their official ex cathedra lives but it still matters. Living by example is crucial.

Martin Luther himself was horrified when he went to Rome if you read his memoirs. He saw priests taking up with prostitutes, his fellow priests from Rome criticized him for saying Mass too slowly and with too much care, and people climbed up stone steps on their knees saying pater nosters thinking they could get indulgences.

The culture of relics got out of hand in the middle ages. You can read about people claiming they had everything from splinters of Christ’s Cross to St. Mary’s girdle to Jesus’s swaddling blanket.

The quality of overall clergy and corruption was high. As Catholics, we should be able to admit this and realize that these things happen. Look at our own clerical pedaphilia issues in the last several years.

Martin Luther, Zwingli, Bucer, Cranmer and company lived during these times. Protestantism broke off seeking to reform the Church. We Catholics tend to believe that some of them threw out the baby with the bath water and some Catholics believe that nothing whatsoever was wrong with our Church at the time. Some believe that the whole thing was unfortunate and it was just a product of the move toward nationalism. Others feel that these men had good consciences, meant well, and truly loved Christ, feeling they were doing the right thing breaking off.

It’s just oversimplification to say that nothing was wrong. I think it’s like saying, “as a Republican, I supported the Iraq War but think it wasn’t well-prosecuted” vs. saying “the war war perfect from day one and not one mistake was made, flawless.” One can be a good Republican and admit faults and stumbling.
Now if we are going to start throwing stones, If luther did indeed see the Priests doing these things you accuse them of he sure took heat did he not. Luther did not by any means live the life of a Catholic Priest. He sure may have condemned but he sure forgot to look in the mirror. As far as some Priests falling from Grace no one has ever denied that. Jesus warned us about that in the bible. Sure mistakes have been made in the Church show me a perfect one. But the Church never claimed to be perfect. Only when it came to teaching scripture and the fullness of the faith. You are judgeing man now, and that is not fair. Now you are saying that PRiests and Popes can’t be human. The Church has never denied them being human, and making mistakes as far as their own decisions. It is only when they are speaking with the Authority to teach the faith that they are perfect.
 
Why the quotations around the word “religion?” Lutheranism is a valid religion despite your not agreeing with it? Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are all religions? Why put quotations implying that it’s illegitimate?
gurney, I am going to have to got with otca on that one. I am almost sure that Luther started the Lutheran Church. Please check on it and let us know.🤷
 
I have to take issue with this statement that there was “nothing wrong” with Catholicism at the time. Whether folks want to admit it or not, there was rampant corruption. There was the selling of indulgences, money for salvation. I’ve heard several of my fellow Catholics claim that indulgences were not “sold” but rather donations were optional. Reading about guys like Tetzel and history you’ll see that this was often not the case. Indulgences were corrupt.

Also the lay people generally only took communion once per year and the laity had little role in the Mass.

Bishoprics were often bought and sold, many priests and some bishops were not even really literate in scripture. Benefices were expected and purchased, etc.

Some popes in the middle ages, especially the Medici popes, lived debauched personal lives and were not a good example. I know many would say that their personal lives are not their official ex cathedra lives but it still matters. Living by example is crucial.

Martin Luther himself was horrified when he went to Rome if you read his memoirs. He saw priests taking up with prostitutes, his fellow priests from Rome criticized him for saying Mass too slowly and with too much care, and people climbed up stone steps on their knees saying pater nosters thinking they could get indulgences.

The culture of relics got out of hand in the middle ages. You can read about people claiming they had everything from splinters of Christ’s Cross to St. Mary’s girdle to Jesus’s swaddling blanket.

The quality of overall clergy and corruption was high. As Catholics, we should be able to admit this and realize that these things happen. Look at our own clerical pedaphilia issues in the last several years.

Martin Luther, Zwingli, Bucer, Cranmer and company lived during these times. Protestantism broke off seeking to reform the Church. We Catholics tend to believe that some of them threw out the baby with the bath water and some Catholics believe that nothing whatsoever was wrong with our Church at the time. Some believe that the whole thing was unfortunate and it was just a product of the move toward nationalism. Others feel that these men had good consciences, meant well, and truly loved Christ, feeling they were doing the right thing breaking off.

It’s just oversimplification to say that nothing was wrong. I think it’s like saying, “as a Republican, I supported the Iraq War but think it wasn’t well-prosecuted” vs. saying “the war war perfect from day one and not one mistake was made, flawless.” One can be a good Republican and admit faults and stumbling.
Again has nothing to do with the RCC having the fullness of the faith. We are taught to not worry about others sins, we have enough of our own. All we need to worry about is does our Church have all the Sacraments, The living CHrist in the sacrament, etc. That is all we have to worry about. Not judgeing human sin. Show me a human that does not have sin? Jesus and the Blessed Mother was it. While I agree that mistakes were made in the human factor, the Church is still led in the divine power of the Holy Spirit. Thats what counted back then and that is what is counted today. Not the mistakes of Man. Why do you think that Priest, Bishops The Pope go to confession. Because they know they are human, and to be human is to sin.
 
gurney, I am going to have to got with otca on that one. I am almost sure that Luther started the Lutheran Church. Please check on it and let us know.🤷
Lutherans are first and foremost Christians. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity, Christ Himself. Is Luther an important figure for us? Yes. So was Melanchton, and Chemnitz and many others? But our founder? No.

Jon
 
Lutherans are first and foremost Christians. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity, Christ Himself. Is Luther an important figure for us? Yes. So was Melanchton, and Chemnitz and many others? But our founder? No.
I join with my brother, Jon, agreeing with his statement. There would be no Lutheran church if it did not rest on the 1500 years of Christian history previous to the Reformation. Lutheranism did not arise out of nothing. Lutheranism was not invented by a German monk.

It is no accident that we hold Scripture, which existed long before Luther, in high esteem. We do so because it is part of our spiritual heritage – the very Word of God.

It is no accident that we confess the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds – creeds that existed long before Luther. We confess them because they are part of our spiritual heritage, because they are statements of our belief in the triune God – the one true God worshiped by all Christians.

In summary, the faith we confess did not start with Luther.
 
I join with my brother, Jon, agreeing with his statement. There would be no Lutheran church if it did not rest on the 1500 years of Christian history previous to the Reformation. Lutheranism did not arise out of nothing. Lutheranism was not invented by a German monk.

It is no accident that we hold Scripture, which existed long before Luther, in high esteem. We do so because it is part of our spiritual heritage – the very Word of God.

It is no accident that we confess the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds – creeds that existed long before Luther. We confess them because they are part of our spiritual heritage, because they are statements of our belief in the triune God – the one true God worshiped by all Christians.

In summary, the faith we confess did not start with Luther.
I agree that the faith did not start with Luther, however, the Lutheran Church was started by Martin Luther.

I believe Martin Luther saw problems in the Church Christ started and had every right to seek a reformation, but what he did was completely start a new Church. That’s like saying, "Christ’s Church failed and therefore he could improve what Christ began.

I agree there were sinful men in Christ’s Church, but Christ promised us that, “…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Did Christ teach the multitudes to ignore the sinful men that seated themselves upon the chair of Moses?

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.


Please don’t think I am condemning Martin Luther, I’m not. Martin Luther was just a man himself and he did what he thought was best, but I don’t believe it was the right thing to do. He had made vows to God, that he changed when he left the Church. He taught private interpretation of scriptures, that he himself realized was a mistake when his followers left him over their own private interpretations. Private interpretations have divided the body of Christ, even in the present day it continues.

I don’t believe it was an accident, but I don’t believe it was the work of God to change the new and everlasting covenant with his people.

I pray that we can find unity again someday.
 
** The True church which is really Christ’s own bureau for the dispensing of authentic information to mankind in His Name, must be visibly discernible as His. The invisible and undiscernible Church theory is impossible, and as I have just said, opposed to the Will of Christ.
Furthermore, Protestants are brought up with the idea that it is not possible for any human being to locate the True Church. :**

Obviously if Protestants have broken away from the Catholic Church … it is to their advantage to preach of the INVISIBLE Church. This is the only way to excuse/conceal their lack of roots thru 1500 years of history.

I don’t find any NT evidence to support the idea that the NT Church was to be concealed. On the contrary, its light was intended to shine brightly, to be a beacon to the world. Christians who think they can please God by living a private Christianity, apart from the Church, have unrealistic / misguided understandings of history & scriptures.
 
I join with my brother, Jon, agreeing with his statement. There would be no Lutheran church if it did not rest on the 1500 years of Christian history previous to the Reformation. Lutheranism did not arise out of nothing. Lutheranism was not invented by a German monk.

It is no accident that we hold Scripture, which existed long before Luther, in high esteem. We do so because it is part of our spiritual heritage – the very Word of God.

It is no accident that we confess the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds – creeds that existed long before Luther. We confess them because they are part of our spiritual heritage, because they are statements of our belief in the triune God – the one true God worshiped by all Christians.

In summary, the faith we confess did not start with Luther.
I agree with you and Jon ,on Martin Luther. The problem is Luther saw all the abuses in the Catholic Church,but didn’t separated that from the beautiful teachings of the Catholic Church.The human aspect of the Church was in the wrong,but it’s teachings weren’t. I don’t know what I would have done in Luther’s place, with all the corruption and no where to turn. I believe the points Catholics try to make is he should of stood fast in the Church and prayed for her, not leave and start another division. This reminds me very much of Israel in the OT. Because of abuses of taxes, 10 Tribes broke off to the north, only Levi and Judah stayed in Jerusalem. Because of the division, things didn’t turn out to well for Israel. I agree with Jon, Prodigal, and you, the healing must begin now!:love:
Peace be with you
 
gurney, I am going to have to got with otca on that one. I am almost sure that Luther started the Lutheran Church. Please check on it and let us know.🤷
You must have a masters in sarcasm.🤷 Yeah, I’m quite aware of the fact that Luther started the Lutheran denomination of Christianity. My point is that it is a valid, recognized religion, whether you or I agree with its tenets or not. I wasn’t debating who started the denomination. You apparently didn’t bother to read the post…
 
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