We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[gurneyhalleck1]

Again has nothing to do with the RCC having the fullness of the faith. We are taught to not worry about others sins, we have enough of our own. All we need to worry about is does our Church have all the Sacraments, The living CHrist in the sacrament, etc. That is all we have to worry about. Not judgeing human sin. Show me a human that does not have sin? Jesus and the Blessed Mother was it. While I agree that mistakes were made in the human factor, the Church is still led in the divine power of the Holy Spirit. Thats what counted back then and that is what is counted today. Not the mistakes of Man. Why do you think that Priest, Bishops The Pope go to confession. Because they know they are human, and to be human is to sin.

I fully comprehend the difference between infallibility and impeccability, thanks, Rinnie. Ay yay yay. My point is that the Church had a high degree of corruption and the priests ‘out in the field’ did not always do a good job of representing what Mother Church herself taught. When there is a high degree of corruption and certain priests actually selling indulgences, you’re going to have people react to it and believe the Church itself needed reform. Hence Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and the gang.

Don’t get so defensive. I haven’t demonized the Catholic faith. I happen to belong to it. But I’m man enough to admit when we’ve had some bad times and those years in the High Middle Ages had moments of greatness and many moments of corruption.

 

[Louie1983]

I fully comprehend the difference between infallibility and impeccability, thanks, Rinnie. Ay yay yay. My point is that the Church had a high degree of corruption and the priests ‘out in the field’ did not always do a good job of representing what Mother Church herself taught. When there is a high degree of corruption and certain priests actually selling indulgences, you’re going to have people react to it and believe the Church itself needed reform. Hence Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and the gang.

Don’t get so defensive. I haven’t demonized the Catholic faith. I happen to belong to it. But I’m man enough to admit when we’ve had some bad times and those years in the High Middle Ages had moments of greatness and many moments of corruption.

Ok fair enough if he had a problem with certain church members behaviour, but why then remove certain books from the bible? he didn;t only have a problem with the behaviour of some but also with what the church taught on certain subjects.

Yes the church has had some bad times but that is no excuse to let go of the faith and then start your own church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Ok fair enough if he had a problem with certain church members behaviour, but why then remove certain books from the bible? he didn;t only have a problem with the behaviour of some but also with what the church taught on certain subjects.

Yes the church has had some bad times but that is no excuse to let go of the faith and then start your own church.

I personally don’t accept sola scriptura/sola fide/sola gratia but Luther did. You’d have to ask him. He became convicted that Paul’s Letter to the Romans and parts of Galatians, etc. pointed to a faith-alone approach to the relationship we should have with Christ. I personally don’t share that approach but I also can’t trash the guy or try to second guess his motives as I wasn’t in that environment at the time or in his head.

I’m merely saying that it’s not necessarily fair to paint the ‘reformers’ are insincere charlatans and merely selfish haters or fools. It’s entirely possible that these individuals were sincere in what they believed in and thought they were reforming the Church.

It was indulgences that initially upset Luther and sent him into the tailspin of reformation to begin with. I happen to disagree with indulgences and I can see how the corruption they brought with them started Luther on a path away from the Church.

Luther had a great many flaws and personal demons. I particularly LOATH his anti-semitism. The man hated Jews with a passion and spoke out against them violently in disgusting ways. I also hate his “sin boldly” statement to Melancthon even though I know his intent in saying it. I don’t like so much about Luther and what followed. But I’m just saying that trashing these guys and trying to demonize their intentions is tough and not very productive.

Some consider it the “Deformation” not the “Reformation.”

I don’t like the tone of the original poster because it’s so combative, inviting a sparring match, a fight, with protestants rather than engaging discussion. It’s cut and dry: you’re all lost, pathetic sheep who are wrong. I’m right. That sort of tone.

I don’t think it’s productive. I’ve never met a convert to Catholicism who initially became fascinated or curious about the Catholic faith because someone approached him/her and said, “your denomination is pathetic, wrong, way off base, lost and our Roman Catholic faith is the truth. Accept it! Suck it up!” That’s not usually a good springboard for initiation! lol

 

[racing59]

I personally don’t accept sola scriptura/sola fide/sola gratia but Luther did. You’d have to ask him. He became convicted that Paul’s Letter to the Romans and parts of Galatians, etc. pointed to a faith-alone approach to the relationship we should have with Christ. I personally don’t share that approach but I also can’t trash the guy or try to second guess his motives as I wasn’t in that environment at the time or in his head.

I’m merely saying that it’s not necessarily fair to paint the ‘reformers’ are insincere charlatans and merely selfish haters or fools. It’s entirely possible that these individuals were sincere in what they believed in and thought they were reforming the Church.

It was indulgences that initially upset Luther and sent him into the tailspin of reformation to begin with. I happen to disagree with indulgences and I can see how the corruption they brought with them started Luther on a path away from the Church.

Luther had a great many flaws and personal demons. I particularly LOATH his anti-semitism. The man hated Jews with a passion and spoke out against them violently in disgusting ways. I also hate his “sin boldly” statement to Melancthon even though I know his intent in saying it. I don’t like so much about Luther and what followed. But I’m just saying that trashing these guys and trying to demonize their intentions is tough and not very productive.

Some consider it the “Deformation” not the “Reformation.”

I don’t like the tone of the original poster because it’s so combative, inviting a sparring match, a fight, with protestants rather than engaging discussion. It’s cut and dry: you’re all lost, pathetic sheep who are wrong. I’m right. That sort of tone.

I don’t think it’s productive. I’ve never met a convert to Catholicism who initially became fascinated or curious about the Catholic faith because someone approached him/her and said, “your denomination is pathetic, wrong, way off base, lost and our Roman Catholic faith is the truth. Accept it! Suck it up!” That’s not usually a good springboard for initiation! lol

You make some great points that I totally agree with. I wish more Catholics could see the way you see it. I have a hang up when any church bashes others faith. It is not productive and puts people on the defensive:thumbsup:
Peace be with you

 

[Louie1983]

I personally don’t accept sola scriptura/sola fide/sola gratia but Luther did. You’d have to ask him. He became convicted that Paul’s Letter to the Romans and parts of Galatians, etc. pointed to a faith-alone approach to the relationship we should have with Christ. I personally don’t share that approach but I also can’t trash the guy or try to second guess his motives as I wasn’t in that environment at the time or in his head.

I’m merely saying that it’s not necessarily fair to paint the ‘reformers’ are insincere charlatans and merely selfish haters or fools. It’s entirely possible that these individuals were sincere in what they believed in and thought they were reforming the Church.

It was indulgences that initially upset Luther and sent him into the tailspin of reformation to begin with. I happen to disagree with indulgences and I can see how the corruption they brought with them started Luther on a path away from the Church.

Luther had a great many flaws and personal demons. I particularly LOATH his anti-semitism. The man hated Jews with a passion and spoke out against them violently in disgusting ways. I also hate his “sin boldly” statement to Melancthon even though I know his intent in saying it. I don’t like so much about Luther and what followed. But I’m just saying that trashing these guys and trying to demonize their intentions is tough and not very productive.

Some consider it the “Deformation” not the “Reformation.”

I don’t like the tone of the original poster because it’s so combative, inviting a sparring match, a fight, with protestants rather than engaging discussion. It’s cut and dry: you’re all lost, pathetic sheep who are wrong. I’m right. That sort of tone.

I don’t think it’s productive. I’ve never met a convert to Catholicism who initially became fascinated or curious about the Catholic faith because someone approached him/her and said, “your denomination is pathetic, wrong, way off base, lost and our Roman Catholic faith is the truth. Accept it! Suck it up!” That’s not usually a good springboard for initiation! lol

Agree with you about trashing and demonizing people other fiaths/figures. However we as catholics have to stand up for the faith, and if someone comes along from a protestant denomination and says “we are the true church and this is why” and it is clearly error, then i would expect catholics to respond (not agrressively) but in a worthy manner.

I agree with you on your last point but we have to be careful not to sugarcoat the faith as well, we give them the truth and make sure they are under no illsuions as to what the church teaches.

 

[rinnie]

Lutherans are first and foremost Christians. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity, Christ Himself. Is Luther an important figure for us? Yes. So was Melanchton, and Chemnitz and many others? But our founder? No.

Jon

I totally agree with you everyone that believe in Jesus Christ as our lord and Savior are Christians. And yes Lutherans also have the truth as the faith in Christ. All Christians do. But the big thing that we have to realize is we all have some truth. And we all have alot of the same truth. But what Makes the Catholic Church overpower the rest is they have the FULLNESS of the Truth. We have ALL of the Sacraments. And what we must learn as Christians is we must all come back together to the One Truth and the One Faith that God has set here on this earth for us. I am not saying you must come to MY CHURCH. It is not MY CHURCH. The Catholic CHurch is the CHurch GOD LEFT for EVERYONE of us.

And what Luther did is yes he had the fullness of the truth, but he left that, and with him started another Church, and left out some of that fullness. Thats what the point is. Yes lutherans have much of the truth. If you go backwards and start with the last Church started today you will find it is very far from the Catholic Church, then keep going. The older you find the Church the closer to the Catholic Church you will find. When you keep tracing the closer to the breaking off of the C Church the closer to the truth you will find.

So while every Church has some truth in it, and the same truth as us, It isn’t the fullness of the Truth. That is why the Catholic Church can make this claim because the Apostles Started it with Jesus Christ as their guide. Just because you have sins of Man you cannot take away the teaching of the Church.

Now you show me ONE CHURCH in this world that has never had leaders, or people in it without sin, and you know what. SIGN ME UP. Until then what People need to do is learn why Does the Catholic CHurch make the Claim that it is the only Church that Holds the FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH. And instead of arguing or hating the Church question your own faith and see if it holds the Fullness of the Truth. Because it should. And Must. And no matter what Faith you are, you deserve the fullness of the truth. You need it. All I ever read is the mistakes the leaders may or may have not done. But so what. That does still not show one stick of evidence that the Catholic Church teaches anything that is not in Tradition or written scripture. Isn’t that the real point. We have that promise from GOD that it will never happen. And has never been proven to have happend yet. Can any other Church say that they have NEVER been taught something that went against the teachings of the original Church that the Apostles taught. Is that not the Point Driven here.

 

[rinnie]

I agree that the faith did not start with Luther, however, the Lutheran Church was started by Martin Luther.

I believe Martin Luther saw problems in the Church Christ started and had every right to seek a reformation, but what he did was completely start a new Church. That’s like saying, "Christ’s Church failed and therefore he could improve what Christ began.

I agree there were sinful men in Christ’s Church, but Christ promised us that, “…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Did Christ teach the multitudes to ignore the sinful men that seated themselves upon the chair of Moses?

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

Please don’t think I am condemning Martin Luther, I’m not. Martin Luther was just a man himself and he did what he thought was best, but I don’t believe it was the right thing to do. He had made vows to God, that he changed when he left the Church. He taught private interpretation of scriptures, that he himself realized was a mistake when his followers left him over their own private interpretations. Private interpretations have divided the body of Christ, even in the present day it continues.

I don’t believe it was an accident, but I don’t believe it was the work of God to change the new and everlasting covenant with his people.

I pray that we can find unity again someday.

I agree with PS here. Because what he say’s has alot of truth in it. And the bible can back him up. We can not take it upon ourself to teach and intrepret scripture. Which is exactly what Luther did. He didn’ t just try to reform the Church, he reformed the word of God and took it upon himself to interpret it his way. The bible even says do not do that. Luther taught you don’t like something or agree with it take it out. Look a the bible today, all different, THings missing! Again not all the books. How can you possibly have the fullness of the Truth, without to begin with the FUllness of the Bible.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Protestants are brought up that it’s impossible to locate a true church?
I have never heard this before. If you are referring to christian churches , we all believe and worship the same Savior, Jesus Chrsit whom God the Father has sent.
Doctrines change and so do people. Cultures are different and languages vary. When a person speaks more than one language in thier home, interpretation is a problem at times. I know, I speak another language other than English. Now, My uncle are I are the only ones left from our immediate family… My children are adopted, so you see, cultures do change with time.

God bless,
jean

PS I have learned a great deal about the Catholic church. I don’t quit understand all they teach and believe, but I know they are saved if they have a personal relationship with the Lord first, then attend church. This applies to all christians.
We are not to judge others. Mt.7:1-5 I also like Lu. 10:27

Sorry, but Doctrines DO NOT change within the Catholic church but in the Protestant churches no two Doctrines are the same. The Catholic church has kept and protected it’s Doctrines from day one. 2,000 years later, they are the same. The Catholic church may change the Liturgy of the Mass, but the Doctrines? NEVER!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

How did Hitler try to destroy the Catholic Church? In fact, He used the Catholic Church to inspire his troops that he was right. So in what way did he try to destroy the Catholic Church?

Hitler converted to Protestanism as he got older.

 

[distracted]

Lutherans are first and foremost Christians. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity, Christ Himself. Is Luther an important figure for us? Yes. So was Melanchton, and Chemnitz and many others? But our founder? No.

Jon

Jesus did not found the Lutheran church… because Jesus lived on Earth 1521 yrs before …

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

“They”

You are speaking for quite a large number of people.

I know many who call themselves Catholics who disagree with you whole heartedly. Many Catholics I know do not even believe that Jesus is the only way to God. Many of them believe that any other religion is a fine way for people to go if it is the path they have chosen. Many Catholics I know follow the traditions of Catholicism, but find the wisdom with which they live their lives from other sources, like astrology, or new age healing practices. There are also many Catholics I know who believe that Jesus came to start His church and His church is not defined by the sign on the lawn. His church is defined by the dirt on our hands as we seek to walk in His way; its defined by His love that resides in people across various denominations of Christianity.

Many protestant denominations are also open to that idea, but many of them are legalistic and believe they are the only “true church.” They believe their practices make them right in God’s eyes, leaving everyone else in Hell.

I personally believe that I am wrong. I believe that we are all wrong in some ways and right in others. I believe that The way of Jesus, His way is so vast that it is constantly being unraveled as I seek Him. I will never be done learning and I will never have Him completely figured out. In the mean time, there are various things that I have wrong, that are being reconfigured through time. I am not perfect - He is perfect.

Read John 14-16
Jesus ushers in the age of the leadership of the Spirit. I believe I am being led by the Spirit and I believe I am not alone. I am in the company of many people across various denominations. I have met people in the Catholic church and many protestants who have been confronted with this reality and in talking with them, we share a bond through the Holy Spirit that goes beyond denominational affiliation.

Well out of 1.5 BILLION Catholics, I am sure a few go astray. And you know an awful lot of Catholics. Of course this in no way has anything to do with what church Christ established, the Catholic church. I do not know ANY Catholics who do not believe that Jesus is the way to get to Heaven. Jesus said it would not be easy to enter the Kingdom. Let Him decide.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I am too - and pray for the same thing.

Of course even 300 is too many. But OTCA stated that “They can’t agree with even any one of their sects”, a statement which is simply and utterly untrue, as I showed through the councils and communions. There are also eucharistic sharing agreements between Anglicans, Methodists, and Lutherans.
;
Maybe some are comfortable using the “30,000” number to emphasize whatever argument they are making. But using an untruth to make a point about their faith is dishonest at best; I would think that in Christian apologetics, the ends cannot justify the means.

O+

Excuse me but there are **tens of thousands of competing denominations each insisting its interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. The resulting divisions have caused untold confusion among millions of sincere BUT MISLED Christians. Just open up your yellow pages of your phone book and see how many different denominations are listed, each claiming to go by the “Bible alone”, BUT NO TWO OF THEM AGREEING ON EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE MEANS. The Holy Spirit cannot be the author of this confusion (1 Cor 14:33).
God cannot lead people to contradictory beliefs because His truth is one.
**Try again.

 

[JonNC]

Jesus did not found the Lutheran church… because Jesus lived on Earth 1521 yrs before …

Don’t recall saying “Jesus founded the Lutheran Church”. What I said was:

Lutherans are first and foremost Christians. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity, Christ Himself.

Prior to 1520, we share the same history with the Catholic Church. Prior to 1054, we share the same history with the Orthodox. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity - Christ Himself.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hitler converted to Protestanism as he got older.

Hitler’s ‘religion’ is still a mystery and was far from being Protestant. Hitler and Himmler both were fervently fascinated by the occult. They created a public national socialist neo-pagan religion that was based largely on the pagan deities and spiritualism of pre-Christian Germany intermingled with Nordic mythology.

The SS had very neo-pagan/occult leanings. Hitler had a great deal of contempt for Catholicism, Judaism, and many Protestants. Christianity didn’t fit in well with his insane survival-of-the-fittest, social darwinist, racial superiority mumbo-jumbo. Throw in Jesus’s Semitism and he had to go elsewhere for his “god.”

 

[distracted]

Don’t recall saying “Jesus founded the Lutheran Church”. What I said was:

Prior to 1520, we share the same history with the Catholic Church. Prior to 1054, we share the same history with the Orthodox. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity - Christ Himself.

Jon

to Christ through LUther???

hmm… i say to Christ through THE Church… His Church.

he only established ONE

just telling the truth …

 

[Louie1983]

Don’t recall saying “Jesus founded the Lutheran Church”. What I said was:

Prior to 1520, we share the same history with the Catholic Church. Prior to 1054, we share the same history with the Orthodox. We trace our roots to the founder of Christianity - Christ Himself.

Jon

But the point is that the Luther broke from the church and tarnished that history you speak about. That doesn’t matter anymore because you can no longer say you have apostolic succession, the lutheran church broke with the chair of st peter.

Jon, you sound like (correct me if i’m wrong) that a part of you wishes the lutheran church was still in communion with the catholic church? You know you can be 1000 miles away from the church, but it’s only step back to joining the church.

 

[JonNC]

=Louie1983;5310915]But the point is that the Luther broke from the church and tarnished that history you speak about. That doesn’t matter anymore because you can no longer say you have apostolic succession, the lutheran church broke with the chair of st peter.

Let’s remember that, as my dad used to say, “it takes two to tango”. Meaning, as your catechism says, there was fault and blame on both sides. The question now is, what do we do about it - together - to come to reconciliation? And in the meantime, how do we talk to each other in ways that reduce the levels of animosity that sometimes divides us more than doctrine?

Jon, you sound like (correct me if i’m wrong) that a part of you wishes the lutheran church was still in communion with the catholic church? You know you can be 1000 miles away from the church, but it’s only step back to joining the church.

It is my constant prayer that we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us to reconciliation and unity. Do I wish our Churches were in full communion? Absolutely!!

Jon

 

[Hesychios]

Well out of 1.5 BILLION Catholics…

You have made this error before, and have been corrected before.

There are not 1.5 billion Catholics.

 

[Louie1983]

Let’s remember that, as my dad used to say, “it takes two to tango”. Meaning, as your catechism says, there was fault and blame on both sides. The question now is, what do we do about it - together - to come to reconciliation? And in the meantime, how do we talk to each other in ways that reduce the levels of animosity that sometimes divides us more than doctrine?

It is my constant prayer that we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us to reconciliation and unity. Do I wish our Churches were in full communion? Absolutely!!

Jon

Yes there were was fault and blame on both sides but there was no fault in regards to what the church taught. This is the key issue here, if luther couldn’t bring himself to accept what the church taught and see past the misconduct of certain church members (hey i can do it, i’m sure he could as well!) then that showed his weakness and pride. He couldn;t accept that the church was right on certain issue?

Also where does the catechism specifically say that there was fault and blame on both sides?

So do i Jon, but i pray for all christians to return home to the catholic church. This is the unity i seek.

 

[JonNC]

Also where does the catechism specifically say that there was fault and blame on both sides?