We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[motstraumen]

Hang on, you ssit there and preach about honest dialogue, but when i mention the differences in our church’s you say call it badgering and not dialogue? clearly you haven’t had much experience in dialogue - i’m sorry to say but dialogue isn’t counted when you speak to anyone who agrees with you. And again for the last time I KNOW THE EFFORTS THAT HE CHURCH AS MADE FOR UNITY, and i support it but honest dialogue and effort to become needs to have a realisation that there is truth and error. My belief is that the catholic church has the truth. Plain and simple, it’s had the truth for 2000 years and not once has it changed! Can you say the same? if our faiths are sre similar and you long for unity then why is it so hard for you to come into the catholic church? why is it so hard for you to acknowledge the pope as the head of the church militant?

You truly need to look at your (our) Church history to say it has not changed once. Peter had a vision of a tablecloth coming down from heaven with all sorts of food both clean and unclean, the Lord told him to eat, how could he? he had been kosher his whole life, what God has made clean is clean indeed, was the reply, Peter changed and interacted with the Gentiles, that was a change not just to a man but to the church. The church thought that the Gentiles should become completely Jewish before entrance, guess what Paul went to Jerusalem, met with in council with the leaders of the church and there was change. Later the church thought it would be best for the priests to be celibate, there was change…on and on. The truth is only Jesus Christ, who was and is and ever shall be. That truth has not changed for the church be it mine (although we in our heart of heart believe and know that we are of the same 2000 year old church as you do, and don’t say Luther named our church after himself, he did not). I don’t come into the Catholic Church because I, as you feel about my church, feel that there are still some evangelical things wrong with your church. These as you would say are errors that must be dealt with. So in that respect we find ourselves in the same place. I can with equal vehemence say we have held and maintained the two millenia worth of faith, and you have not, but that only leads to impasse. There is still room for dialogue, I believe, true dialogue from both sides.

 

[Louie1983]

You truly need to look at your (our) Church history to say it has not changed once. Peter had a vision of a tablecloth coming down from heaven with all sorts of food both clean and unclean, the Lord told him to eat, how could he? he had been kosher his whole life, what God has made clean is clean indeed, was the reply, Peter changed and interacted with the Gentiles, that was a change not just to a man but to the church. The church thought that the Gentiles should become completely Jewish before entrance, guess what Paul went to Jerusalem, met with in council with the leaders of the church and there was change. Later the church thought it would be best for the priests to be celibate, there was change…on and on. The truth is only Jesus Christ, who was and is and ever shall be. That truth has not changed for the church be it mine (although we in our heart of heart believe and know that we are of the same 2000 year old church as you do, and don’t say Luther named our church after himself, he did not). I don’t come into the Catholic Church because I, as you feel about my church, feel that there are still some evangelical things wrong with your church. These as you would say are errors that must be dealt with. So in that respect we find ourselves in the same place. I can with equal vehemence say we have held and maintained the two millenia worth of faith, and you have not, but that only leads to impasse. There is still room for dialogue, I believe, true dialogue from both sides.

You see, this is where you are incorrect. The faith has not changed at all. If anything it proves the authority of the church and the pope as head of the church here on earth. The examples you list above are nothing more then perfect examples of why we need an authority and magisterium (which in turn is guided by the holy spirit) to guide the faithfull. The church was revealing the true faith to the world over the centuries yet you interpret that as change? I’m sorry but i know we are NOT apart of the same 2000 year old church, Luthernas have broken away from the true church. Plain and simple.

The catholic church is the only church the proves it has apostolic succession and that it was given the authority by Chrit himself, The lutheran church cannot prove this. You feel that the catholic church has evangelical errors, unfortunately for you there are hundreds of quotes and 2000 years of early church father teaching that support the church’s authority and teachings. Here are some listed below:

**- “And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

• “For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).
• “True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180). **

God bless

 

[Louie1983]

Guess what Louie1983, I agree with you on this one.

Excellent!

 

[DorianGregorian]

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”

Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: “I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.”

Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: ‘Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ’ (Epsitle 141). - Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio (on Mixed marriages) Pope Gregory XVI

Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.”

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Encyclical Humani Generis, August 12, 1950: “Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”

 

[racing59]

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”

Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: “I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.”

Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: ‘Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ’ (Epsitle 141). - Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio (on Mixed marriages) Pope Gregory XVI

Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.”

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Encyclical Humani Generis, August 12, 1950: “Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”

So I take this as you’re saying if your not a member of RCC, your not saved???
Peace be with you

 

[Louie1983]

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”

Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: “I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.”

Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: ‘Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ’ (Epsitle 141). - Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio (on Mixed marriages) Pope Gregory XVI

Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.”

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Encyclical Humani Generis, August 12, 1950: “Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”

Thankyou Dorian!

 

[motstraumen]

You see, this is where you are incorrect. The faith has not changed at all. If anything it proves the authority of the church and the pope as head of the church here on earth. The examples you list above are nothing more then perfect examples of why we need an authority and magisterium (which in turn is guided by the holy spirit) to guide the faithfull. The church was revealing the true faith to the world over the centuries yet you interpret that as change? I’m sorry but i know we are NOT apart of the same 2000 year old church, Luthernas have broken away from the true church. Plain and simple.

The catholic church is the only church the proves it has apostolic succession and that it was given the authority by Chrit himself, The lutheran church cannot prove this. You feel that the catholic church has evangelical errors, unfortunately for you there are hundreds of quotes and 2000 years of early church father teaching that support the church’s authority and teachings. Here are some listed below:

**- “And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

• “For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).
• “True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180). **

God bless

I agree with you here too, and the last quote especially and in particular the part about being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures…etc. That is where we as Lutherans know the Roman church of Luther’s day went wrong as our confessions point out. The corrupt church at that time added to doctrine and Scripture to bolster their worldly power, and through there immoral acts of the abuses in indulgences and simony (selling Bishoprics to the one who could pay, and some Bishops even having more than one Bishopric) lost their bearing as to the true church. Have they sought to rectify it? Yes. And we hope they will some day come fully around so that the full Reformation may be fulfilled and all of the Catholic Church, Evangelical and Roman, may once again say we are truly one church by God’s grace alone. If the Bishops would not have strayed so far into the world and kept their eyes on the charge they were given from the Apostles onward God would not have needed to use Martin Luther and his followers to bring back the true faith. In our dialogue we have come a long way in understanding each other. But don’t think that we are not as sure of our Rock, Jesus Christ, and our one true apostolic faith as you are, and just as adament that it has been handed down to us unbroken from the apostles. I know this won’t go anywhere to shaking you, but I just needed to say we are just as “dead” sure as you, and you may claim tradition as yours alone, but we cling and love it just as tenaciously as you. God Bless.

 

[Louie1983]

I agree with you here too, and the last quote especially and in particular the part about being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures…etc. That is where we as Lutherans know the Roman church of Luther’s day went wrong as our confessions point out. The corrupt church at that time added to doctrine and Scripture to bolster their worldly power, and through there immoral acts of the abuses in indulgences and simony (selling Bishoprics to the one who could pay, and some Bishops even having more than one Bishopric) lost their bearing as to the true church. Have they sought to rectify it? Yes. And we hope they will some day come fully around so that the full Reformation may be fulfilled and all of the Catholic Church, Evangelical and Roman, may once again say we are truly one church by God’s grace alone. If the Bishops would not have strayed so far into the world and kept their eyes on the charge they were given from the Apostles onward God would not have needed to use Martin Luther and his followers to bring back the true faith. In our dialogue we have come a long way in understanding each other. But don’t think that we are not as sure of our Rock, Jesus Christ, and our one true apostolic faith as you are, and just as adament that it has been handed down to us unbroken from the apostles. I know this won’t go anywhere to shaking you, but I just needed to say we are just as “dead” sure as you, and you may claim tradition as yours alone, but we cling and love it just as tenaciously as you. God Bless.

Again you are incorrect in saying the corruption was added to scripture and doctrine. You just cannot destinguish between infallabillity in faith and morals and the conduct of some members of the church, It’s quite sad actually the fact that there have been many great popes and bishops and priest who served the true church before and after the Lutheran church broke off but you seem to want to focus on Luther’s approach and this period of time. Hmmm, seems very strange to me.

If you agree with me on these quotes then you have dug yourself into a major hole, these quotes were directed at the true church that is the catholic church, How do i know? because these are the same fathers who were loyal to the pope and the catholic church. Your faith has not been handed down to you by the apostles, simple as that. Several books have been removed from the bible that was handed down by the disciples, many teachings have been changed that were handed down by the disciples (by the way - does the lutheran church accept woman ordination?-honest question), Purgatory etc. How can you say that it’s directly from the apostles when you the faith you preach is so different?

 

[Louie1983]

louie,
I have a few passages from the Bible that you may want to consider.
God shows no favoritism. Jas.2:1, rom.2:11, Acts 10:36 Eph.6:9
God has left us to struggle with each other. while we are doing this, he commanded that we love one another. 1Jn.4:10-11, Mt.22:36, 1Jn.3:23-24 "Who loves God must also love his brother. We are brothers in Christ because we have only one Savior.

Pray about this and tell me what you think.
God bless,
jean

And i have some for you:

• Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves
• 1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).
• 2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

-Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

• Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

And here are some early church father quotes for you also in regards to apostolic succession and the authority of the catholic church:

• “Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.” Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 44:1-2 (c. A.D. 96).
• “Since, according to my opinion, the grades here in the Church, of bishops, presbyters, deacons, are imitations of the angelic glory, and of that economy which, the Scriptures say, awaits those who, following the footsteps of the apostles, have lived in perfection of righteousness according to the Gospel.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:13 (A.D. 202).
• “The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” Pope Clement of Rome [regn. c A.D.91-101], 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).
• “Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate…” Pope Victor I [regn. A.D. 189-198], in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (A.D. 192).
• “Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid…Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter.” Pope Stephen I [regn. A.D. 254-257], Firmilian to Cyprian, Epistle 74/75:17 (A.D. 256).
• “I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter s, that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us.” Pope Julius [regn. A.D. 337-352], To the Eusebians, fragment in Athanasius’ Against the Arians, 2:35 (c. A.D. 345).

 

[motstraumen]

Again you are incorrect in saying the corruption was added to scripture and doctrine. You just cannot destinguish between infallabillity in faith and morals and the conduct of some members of the church, It’s quite sad actually the fact that there have been many great popes and bishops and priest who served the true church before and after the Lutheran church broke off but you seem to want to focus on Luther’s approach and this period of time. Hmmm, seems very strange to me.

If you agree with me on these quotes then you have dug yourself into a major hole, these quotes were directed at the true church that is the catholic church, How do i know? because these are the same fathers who were loyal to the pope and the catholic church. Your faith has not been handed down to you by the apostles, simple as that. Several books have been removed from the bible that was handed down by the disciples, many teachings have been changed that were handed down by the disciples (by the way - does the lutheran church accept woman ordination?-honest question), Purgatory etc. How can you say that it’s directly from the apostles when you the faith you preach is so different?

No hole here. I agree there have been wonderful popes before and after this time, as did Luther himself. You keep bringing up the missing books. That is myth on your part that you keep trying to push on here. THis is simply not true. Look at Luther’s translation. Come look at my Bible. Come look at my grandparents’, great grandparents’ Bibles in Norwegian or German or Danish or Swedish. We do accept woman’s ordination,and my wife is a pastor. We base this on clear Scriptural witness that there were woman proclaiming the word as apostles in the time of Paul at the latest. I have tried to point this out to others on here, but they just come back with a pat ad hominem ). But to be honest with you there are Lutheran groups that do not ordain women, for the very same reasons that Roman Catholics do not. Read our confessions to learn about our stance on purgatory. bookofconcord.org/defense_11_satisfaction.php We do not believe in it because Christ is not for us in a thousand years or ten thousand years Christ is for us now. I am the way, the truth and the life; I am the resurrection and life; today you will be with me in paradise, etc, not in some man understood temporal way, but eteranally, today, yesterday and tomorrow. The fires of purgatory and the work of God’s Holy Spirit is at work now moving us ever closer to the day when we, in Christ, are entered into his kingdom, not as a mirror, but face to face.

 

[Louie1983]

No hole here. I agree there have been wonderful popes before and after this time, as did Luther himself. You keep bringing up the missing books. That is myth on your part that you keep trying to push on here. THis is simply not true. Look at Luther’s translation. Come look at my Bible. Come look at my grandparents’, great grandparents’ Bibles in Norwegian or German or Danish or Swedish. We do accept woman’s ordination,and my wife is a pastor. We base this on clear Scriptural witness that there were woman proclaiming the word as apostles in the time of Paul at the latest. I have tried to point this out to others on here, but they just come back with a pat ad hominem ). But to be honest with you there are Lutheran groups that do not ordain women, for the very same reasons that Roman Catholics do not. Read our confessions to learn about our stance on purgatory. bookofconcord.org/defense_11_satisfaction.php We do not believe in it because Christ is not for us in a thousand years or ten thousand years Christ is for us now. I am the way, the truth and the life; I am the resurrection and life; today you will be with me in paradise, etc, not in some man understood temporal way, but eteranally, today, yesterday and tomorrow. The fires of purgatory and the work of God’s Holy Spirit is at work now moving us ever closer to the day when we, in Christ, are entered into his kingdom, not as a mirror, but face to face.

That’s just the problem isn’t it motstraumen? You say you have all the books but then there are some lutherans i know who don’t! Imagine if i was to join the lutheran church how could you persuade me to join when there is a clear and proven inconsistancy in the history and teachings of the lutheran church?

Lutherans accept womens ordination? BINGO! did luther accept women’s ordination? it’s a double edged sword here i’m afraid because if he didn’t support womens ordination then he agreed with the church and it’s teachings here which means that you don’t agree with what luther thought about this anyway? , but if he DID support womens ordination then he was going against church teaching and at the time 1500 years of tradition and teachings of the church and many church fathers who supported the ordination of men only as priests, not to mention the scripture passges that confirm priestly ordination is for men only such as:

• Judges 17:10; 18:19 – fatherhood and priesthood are synonymous terms. Micah says, “Stay with me, and be to me a father and a priest.” Fathers/priests give life, and mothers receive and nurture life. This reflects God our Father who gives the life of grace through the Priesthood of His Divine Son, and Mother Church who receives the life of grace and nourishes her children. In summary, women cannot be priests because women cannot be fathers.
• Gen. 14:10; Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17 - Jesus, the Son of God, is both priest and King after the priest-king Melchizedek. Jesus’ priesthood embodies both Kingship and Sonship.
• Gen. 22:9-13 - as foreshadowed, God chose our redemption to be secured by the sacrificial love that the Son gives to the Father.
• Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19 - because the priest acts in persona Christi in the offering to the Father, the priest cannot be a woman.
• Mark 3:13 - Jesus selected the apostles “as He desired,” according to His will, and not according to the demands of His culture. Because Jesus acted according to His will which was perfectly united to that of the Father, one cannot criticize Jesus’ selection of men to be His priests without criticizing God.

Same goes with purgatory, again Luther didn;t believe in purgatory and just because it conflicted with his personal beliefs. I know what your going to say is that Luther did not remove any books, this is still problematic as Purgatory IS in ecripture and yet Luther disagreed with it. Here are some scripture passges that support purgatory:

• Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
• Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
• Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

 

[JonNC]

=Louie1983;5325424]
I can’t be too sure in regards to this point as i have not studied this yet.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

But there were popes and bishops and priests who were fighting against this as well, you make it sound like luther was the only one to ever say something about church conduct. There were many priests, laity and bishops who were fighting against corrupt conduct within the church. But you son’t see them being disobedient to the church do you?

I’m quite aware of this, and I thank God for those who strove to fix the Church.

How can two churches express truth together when there are many areas that we disgree on? I hear what your saying in regards to being united in some areas, however, the catholic church is not about spreading parts of the truth it’s about spreading the whole truth in it’s entirety, the same truth it has held for 2000 years!

Triumphalism. You express a desire for dialogue, then appear to limit the ability of the Holy Spirit to bring us together. Here is what our churches together say about ministry:
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

There is only one truth that can be preached, and that truth is held by the catholic church.

You can either take this position as meaning wither, “we’re better than you”, or “let’s listen to the Holy Spirit’s call for us to dialogue and come together”. btw, the “we’re better than you” approach by both sides, employed for over 450 years, didn’t work very well, did it.

Jon

 

[motstraumen]

That’s just the problem isn’t it motstraumen? You say you have all the books but then there are some lutherans i know who don’t! Imagine if i was to join the lutheran church how could you persuade me to join when there is a clear and proven inconsistancy in the history and teachings of the lutheran church?

Lutherans accept womens ordination? BINGO! did luther accept women’s ordination? it’s a double edged sword here i’m afraid because if he didn’t support womens ordination then he agreed with the church and it’s teachings here which means that you don’t agree with what luther thought about this anyway? , but if he DID support womens ordination then he was going against church teaching and at the time 1500 years of tradition and teachings of the church and many church fathers who supported the ordination of men only as priests, not to mention the scripture passges that confirm priestly ordination is for men only such as:

• Judges 17:10; 18:19 – fatherhood and priesthood are synonymous terms. Micah says, “Stay with me, and be to me a father and a priest.” Fathers/priests give life, and mothers receive and nurture life. This reflects God our Father who gives the life of grace through the Priesthood of His Divine Son, and Mother Church who receives the life of grace and nourishes her children. In summary, women cannot be priests because women cannot be fathers.
• Gen. 14:10; Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17 - Jesus, the Son of God, is both priest and King after the priest-king Melchizedek. Jesus’ priesthood embodies both Kingship and Sonship.
• Gen. 22:9-13 - as foreshadowed, God chose our redemption to be secured by the sacrificial love that the Son gives to the Father.
• Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19 - because the priest acts in persona Christi in the offering to the Father, the priest cannot be a woman.
• Mark 3:13 - Jesus selected the apostles “as He desired,” according to His will, and not according to the demands of His culture. Because Jesus acted according to His will which was perfectly united to that of the Father, one cannot criticize Jesus’ selection of men to be His priests without criticizing God.

Same goes with purgatory, again Luther didn;t believe in purgatory and just because it conflicted with his personal beliefs. I know what your going to say is that Luther did not remove any books, this is still problematic as Purgatory IS in ecripture and yet Luther disagreed with it. Here are some scripture passges that support purgatory:

• Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
• Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
• Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

All I can say is that I totally disagree with you about your interpretations. I was going to lay out my arguments but it does no good. You are not going to change me in that I am “dead” sure about my faith and our church’s doctrinal and confessional correctness and I am sure I won’t either. So let’s just leave it at that. You can come back and look look I won. But you have not proven anything by your quotes, look at our Book of Concord for our responses. I am just glad the Roman Church and the Lutheran World Federation are still in dialogue.

 

[rinnie]

You truly need to look at your (our) Church history to say it has not changed once. Peter had a vision of a tablecloth coming down from heaven with all sorts of food both clean and unclean, the Lord told him to eat, how could he? he had been kosher his whole life, what God has made clean is clean indeed, was the reply, Peter changed and interacted with the Gentiles, that was a change not just to a man but to the church. The church thought that the Gentiles should become completely Jewish before entrance, guess what Paul went to Jerusalem, met with in council with the leaders of the church and there was change. Later the church thought it would be best for the priests to be celibate, there was change…on and on. The truth is only Jesus Christ, who was and is and ever shall be. That truth has not changed for the church be it mine (although we in our heart of heart believe and know that we are of the same 2000 year old church as you do, and don’t say Luther named our church after himself, he did not). I don’t come into the Catholic Church because I, as you feel about my church, feel that there are still some evangelical things wrong with your church. These as you would say are errors that must be dealt with. So in that respect we find ourselves in the same place. I can with equal vehemence say we have held and maintained the two millenia worth of faith, and you have not, but that only leads to impasse. There is still room for dialogue, I believe, true dialogue from both sides.

If I could say one thing, You need to realize that there are different rites in the Catholic Faith. Now the RCC do not agree with a priest getting married. That is not saying that a priest cannot get married, that is saying that if you as a priest are called to the Roman Rite you have taken that promise to serve God and God only and you have given the right up to marry. That is a discipline of the Pope at this time for the RCC. Do you understand what I mean.

Just because other Catholic Priests do choose to marry just means that they have chosen another rite of the Catholic faith is all.

What people do not realize is God calls people to serve different roles. There is so much to learn in the Catholic faith, It is a constant learning experience and you must study all of your life. There is so much to learn and understand.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Don’t ya just love it when non-Catholic Christians continue to tell Catholics about their faith? Boggles the mind.

 

[JonNC]

Don’t ya just love it when non-Catholic Christians continue to tell Catholics about their faith? Boggles the mind.

Plank and speck. Do you want to be the pot today, or the kettle?
I have seen you do this in reverse. It doesn’t work in either direction.

Jon

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Plank and speck. Do you want to be the pot today, or the kettle?
I have seen you do this in reverse. It doesn’t work in either direction.

Jon

What are you talking about. There are many non-Catholic’s here who seem very concerned about Catholics not practicing their faith according to them. I think they should worry about their own souls.

 

[sambos671]

Don’t ya just love it when non-Catholic Christians continue to tell Catholics about their faith? Boggles the mind.

Yes I do. Especially when many Catholics don’t know their faith. It makes them study and think. :yup:

 

[GKC]

Don’t ya just love it when non-Catholic Christians continue to tell Catholics about their faith? Boggles the mind.

Tell me about married priests.

GKC

 

[sambos671]

What are you talking about. There are many non-Catholic’s here who seem very concerned about Catholics not practicing their faith according to them. I think they should worry about their own souls.

I’m conserned about Catholics not practicing their faith. It’s what lead me away from the Church. But God be praised he lead me back despite Catholics not practicing their faith. :tiphat: