We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[DorianGregorian]

So I take this as you’re saying if your not a member of RCC, your not saved???
Peace be with you

I am a firm believer in the saying: “Extra Ecclesia nulla salus”
Outside the Church there is no salvation.

This does not mean I am telling other people that they will not be saved. I am not making a negative statement. I am making an affirmative statement. It is my personal belief that the Church is necessary for salvation. However, I do not cast judgment on others, nor do I sponsor denying their equal privilege of practicing their belief. I however will stick to my belief that as Cyprian of Carthage stated: “He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother.”

So in short I affirm my belief in the positive sense, I do not pronounce judgment on others, however I will affirm that the Church and Christ go hand-in-hand.

Peace be with you as well.

Laus Deo

 

[JonNC]

What are you talking about. There are many non-Catholic’s here who seem very concerned about Catholics not practicing their faith according to them. I think they should worry about their own souls.

Them meaning whom?

Hmm, ok. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Don’t ya just love it when non-Catholic Christians continue to tell Catholics about their faith? Boggles the mind.

Are you saying here that you love it when nCC’s tell you about the Catholic faith, or their own nCC faith?

As you know, my first rule for myself here is: “never tell someone what they believe, instead allow them to tell you, and actually listen.”

Jon

 

[foxscape]

I for one am not 100% sure of anything except my own mortality.

I believe you can also be certain that you will pay taxes

Ciao,
JRB

 

[O.S.Luke]

Plank and speck. Do you want to be the pot today, or the kettle?
I have seen you do this in reverse. It doesn’t work in either direction.

Jon

Wasting your time, Jon. OTCA is above us. Just ask her.

 

[distracted]

Lutheran groups that do not ordain women, for the very same reasons that Roman Catholics do not.

can’t you see how this is NOT consistent? God is not the author of chaos. He doesn’t speak to one Church pastor and say one thing and then say something else to another (women being ordained, infant baptism,etc). Who is right? Jesus established ONE Church… To the extent that any given church (ecclesiastical community) agrees w/ the RCC, that church is not wrong… but where it disagree, it is wrong… If A opposes B either one or both are wrong… they can’t both be right.

 We do not believe in [Purgatoyr]  because .... today you will be with me in paradise, etc, .

if Christ established a Church and that Church teaches Purgatory, it is only logical to accept it… The true Church did not start in the 1500s… it began with Christ…

There are scirptural psg that speak of a place of purification (etc)… St Mt 18:23… 1 Cor 3:13…

Jesus never ordained women as Apostles… He knew he was going to be crucified, so why didn’t He go ahead and do so depite infuriating the synagogue hierarchy? Because He didn’t want women priests. In the bible it says that a woman should have no authority over a man.

it may have something to do with Adam & Eve… Eve was deceived but Adam deliberately disobeyed… without the excuse of being deceived…

a man disobeyed… so a man must now obey (do everything God/Jesus wants)… priesthood…

(as an aside: i think women are still easily deceived… and that could be one reason they cannot be priests… but i am not now speaking for the Church… just “opining”… )

 

[distracted]

What are you talking about. There are many non-Catholic’s here who seem very concerned about Catholics not practicing their faith according to them. I think they should worry about their own souls.

the Scripture says:

"Work out your own salvation

… with fear & trmebling." [emphasis added]

 

[Hesychios]

I am a firm believer in the saying: “Extra Ecclesia nulla salus”
Outside the Church there is no salvation.

This does not mean I am telling other people that they will not be saved. I am not making a negative statement. I am making an affirmative statement. It is my personal belief that the Church is necessary for salvation. However, I do not cast judgment on others, nor do I sponsor denying their equal privilege of practicing their belief. I however will stick to my belief that as Cyprian of Carthage stated: “He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother.”

So in short I affirm my belief in the positive sense, I do not pronounce judgment on others, however I will affirm that the Church and Christ go hand-in-hand.

Peace be with you as well.

Laus Deo

What you are stating here does not make a whole bunch of sense.

This does not mean I am telling other people that they will not be saved.

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

I am a firm believer in the saying: “Extra Ecclesia nulla salus”

 

[Louie1983]

All I can say is that I totally disagree with you about your interpretations. I was going to lay out my arguments but it does no good. You are not going to change me in that I am “dead” sure about my faith and our church’s doctrinal and confessional correctness and I am sure I won’t either. So let’s just leave it at that. You can come back and look look I won. But you have not proven anything by your quotes, look at our Book of Concord for our responses. I am just glad the Roman Church and the Lutheran World Federation are still in dialogue.

I’m very disappointed in your response, i don’t care about winning (you always seem to make this point) i care about defending the true faith in it’s entirety and especially when you claim to have so much in common with the catholic church yet in the above oints our church’s disagree on 2 key points.

I’m glad that our church’s are in dialogue also, but what do you hope to get out of it? personally, i hope that we unite where our faith and teachings are the same, one church that preaches one message together - the true message our lord wanted us to preach by the authority he gave his holy catholic apostolic church through peter and the disciples. Notby 30,000 different denominations who teach different doctrines and different messages.

 

[Louie1983]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

**Thanks, i’ll look into it. It doesn;t change anything though, because there are many points that our church’s disagree on i.e women being ordained as priests, leadership of the pope, abortion, books missing from the bible, did luther agree with all these as well? **

I’m quite aware of this, and I thank God for those who strove to fix the Church.

They fixed the church? nothing wrong with the church, just the conduct of it’s members!
Triumphalism. You express a desire for dialogue, then appear to limit the ability of the Holy Spirit to bring us together. Here is what our churches together say about ministry:
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Yes i do express a desire for dialogue to bring people back to the catholic faith. This is what the holy spirit would want because being apart of the blessed trinity means he would want people to return to the true church - the catholic church the Chrst established! I’ll read your website but again it won;t change anything, as the catholic church won;t be changing any of it’s teachings that lutherans find problematic. It will explain how well the both church’s have worked together in certain areas which is great! but it doesn;t address the core issue!

You can either take this position as meaning wither, “we’re better than you”, or “let’s listen to the Holy Spirit’s call for us to dialogue and come together”. btw, the “we’re better than you” approach by both sides, employed for over 450 years, didn’t work very well, did it.

Jon

Well if certain members chose to be obedient to mother church instead of defying it’s authority, we wouldn’t have this problem in the first place would we? that’s what doesn’t work very well my friend.

God Bless.

 

[DorianGregorian]

There is a difference between an affirmative statement, and a negative statement.

Affirmatively I believe:

• Baptism is necessary for salvation.
  Yet I do not believe a negative:
• Those who are not Baptized will go to Hell.

Affirmatively I believe:

• The Catholic Church is the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
  Yet I do not believe a negative:
• Members of other religions are destined for Hell.

I affirm my statements, yet I do not have any knowledge to determine who is in Hell. I entrust those who are not by their own fault ignorant of the Church (e.x a peasant farmer in Taiwan for example who never heard the Gospel, or someone in China who due to Government cannot receive the Sacraments) to the mercy of God, has the Second Vatican Council has pointed out.

However someone who has attacked or despised Jesus, or has attacked his Church, clearly has the capacity to understand what they are doing, and for that person I will pray for.

Laus Deo

 

[motstraumen]

If I could say one thing, You need to realize that there are different rites in the Catholic Faith. Now the RCC do not agree with a priest getting married. That is not saying that a priest cannot get married, that is saying that if you as a priest are called to the Roman Rite you have taken that promise to serve God and God only and you have given the right up to marry. That is a discipline of the Pope at this time for the RCC. Do you understand what I mean.

Just because other Catholic Priests do choose to marry just means that they have chosen another rite of the Catholic faith is all.

What people do not realize is God calls people to serve different roles. There is so much to learn in the Catholic faith, It is a constant learning experience and you must study all of your life. There is so much to learn and understand.

I do understand about the various rites and the implications for today, but in the time of Luther the situation they were dealing with was the Roman Rite, if you will. I am not sure if any person that isn’t brought up in the other rite would have the opportunity to chose which right he became a priest in. I also understand call or vocation and am equally aware of the great mystery that is the grace revealed in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and how he works through his people, all of us who hold to the universal faith that God alone gives.

 

[motstraumen]

I’m very disappointed in your response, i don’t care about winning (you always seem to make this point) i care about defending the true faith in it’s entirety and especially when you claim to have so much in common with the catholic church yet in the above oints our church’s disagree on 2 key points.

I’m glad that our church’s are in dialogue also, but what do you hope to get out of it? personally, i hope that we unite where our faith and teachings are the same, one church that preaches one message together - the true message our lord wanted us to preach by the authority he gave his holy catholic apostolic church through peter and the disciples. Notby 30,000 different denominations who teach different doctrines and different messages./QUOTE

Sorry to disappoint you. I don’t recall ever saying you win or being concerned about winning? I did agree with you on an above comment. At least one point the ordination of women is being debated with eighty percent of Catholic Theologians affirming that it should be a reality according to one Catholic website on women’s ordination. By interpolating a doctrine into the Scriptures you refer to about purgatory does not make it so. The 30,000 denominations exageration and JonNC points out is getting a bit old. It is a number pulled out of the air. I hope for in dialogue that there will be a coming together of our churches. When you say that we just give up what has been given to us through the church fathers, the reformers and the Holy Spirit that is not a true dialogue. If you read our confessional writings we quote canon law and church fathers readily to make our points. I hope your church preaches the same message as our church which is given to us from Paul, Christ and him crucified. Simple. And through this message we are convicted of our sins, and made ready to receive the gospel that the crucifixion was not the end of the story, Christ triumphed over the grave and through that alone are we saved, by believing that Jesus died and rose again for us, for you, for me. This is the catholic faith.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There is a difference between an affirmative statement, and a negative statement.

Affirmatively I believe:

• Baptism is necessary for salvation.
  Yet I do not believe a negative:
• Those who are not Baptized will go to Hell.

Affirmatively I believe:

• The Catholic Church is the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
  Yet I do not believe a negative:
• Members of other religions are destined for Hell.

I affirm my statements, yet I do not have any knowledge to determine who is in Hell. I entrust those who are not by their own fault ignorant of the Church (e.x a peasant farmer in Taiwan for example who never heard the Gospel, or someone in China who due to Government cannot receive the Sacraments) to the mercy of God, has the Second Vatican Council has pointed out.

However someone who has attacked or despised Jesus, or has attacked his Church, clearly has the capacity to understand what they are doing, and for that person I will pray for.

Laus Deo

So we’ve covered a Taiwanese guy and a Chinese guy. Any invincible ignorance outside of North Asia? LOL

 

[Louie1983]

Louie1983;5329261:

I’m very disappointed in your response, i don’t care about winning (you always seem to make this point) i care about defending the true faith in it’s entirety and especially when you claim to have so much in common with the catholic church yet in the above oints our church’s disagree on 2 key points.

I’m glad that our church’s are in dialogue also, but what do you hope to get out of it? personally, i hope that we unite where our faith and teachings are the same, one church that preaches one message together - the true message our lord wanted us to preach by the authority he gave his holy catholic apostolic church through peter and the disciples. Notby 30,000 different denominations who teach different doctrines and different messages.

Women’s ordination - it’s being debated because there are those who cannot accept the fact the Jesus intended the priesthood to be be for man alone, not for women. I gave numerous quotes from the bible supporting this in an earlier response but you brushed it aside with a simple and unconvincing response “i don’t agree with you”. People will always debate this issue along with homosexuality, abortion, contraception etc but it won’t do anything because the catholic church has and always will stay true to it’s teachings - as Jesus promised “and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. Something the Lutheran church cannot say unfortunately.

Actually the response that is truly getting old in which yourself and Jon have kept using is the whole “other catholics are debating it” or “there have been many catholic theolgians who agree with it”. That proves nothing, John paul II said himself that the catholic church does not have the authority to change this because it is holy tradition given to us by Jesus, pope Benedict recently confirmed this also! You don’t get much more clearer then a teaching then that!

Ok fine, there may not be 30,000 differen denominations but the number is at least in the thousands! this is bad enough, thousands of different denominations teaching different messages and doctrines!

Purgatory - Me interpolating that into scriptures? are you serious? I’m simply confirming the 2000 year teaching of the church! If you agree with me then you disagree with 2000 years of church teaching as Luther did.

You quote canon law in your confession but you don’t quote all of it! What’s the point in having bits and pieces of the faith! tell me, where in canon law does it state that women can be ordanined? that abortion is permissable? That homosexuality is acceptable? You will find in Canon law that the true catholic church holds apostolic succession and authority, something the catholic church can prove and you cannot. Our church preaches the true message that is truth about christ and salvation, that christ founded his church and built it on st peter as his representative here on earth and that his successors hold the authority he gave to peter as the first pope!

 

[DorianGregorian]

So we’ve covered a Taiwanese guy and a Chinese guy. Any invincible ignorance outside of North Asia? LOL

LOL, I suppose only God knows, I don’t want the job of determining who gets into Heaven or not!

 

[JonNC]

=Louie1983;5329288]
Thanks, i’ll look into it. It doesn;t change anything though, because there are many points that our church’s disagree on i.e women being ordained as priests, leadership of the pope, abortion, books missing from the bible, did luther agree with all these as well?

Goodness, so negative. Our synod doesn’t ordain women.
Abortion: www.lutheransforlife.org

They fixed the church? nothing wrong with the church, just the conduct of it’s members!

I stand corrected. Poor choice of words.

I’ll read your website but again it won;t change anything, as the catholic church won;t be changing any of it’s teachings that lutherans find problematic. It will explain how well the both church’s have worked together in certain areas which is great! but it doesn;t address the core issue!

My website? It is the US Council of Catholic Bishop’s website. It is your website!!

Well if certain members chose to be obedient to mother church instead of defying it’s authority, we wouldn’t have this problem in the first place would we? that’s what doesn’t work very well my friend.

And we’re back to where we started. Had the leaders of mother church acted properly, it would not have happened in the first place. I pray our leaders will dialogue better than you and me.

Blessings,
Jon

 

[O.S.Luke]

I’m very disappointed in your response, i don’t care about winning (you always seem to make this point) i care about defending the true faith in it’s entirety and especially when you claim to have so much in common with the catholic church yet in the above oints our church’s disagree on 2 key points… Notby 30,000 different denominations who teach different doctrines and different messages.

Using that tiresome, bull-pucky figure of 30,000 and then saying you’re not trying to win? I think that needs some rethinking, Louie.

Using hyperbole in an argument is not honest apologetics.

 

[sambos671]

Using that tiresome, bull-pucky figure of 30,000 and then saying you’re not trying to win? I think that needs some rethinking, Louie.

Using hyperbole in an argument is not honest apologetics.

I think the number is closer to 67, 342.8972140687 But that’s just my stats. Acutually, I think there are quite a few more denominations than mentioned but if you were to catagorize them into influence you could break them down as you did. However, I break them down by the reformers. So you can have Lutherans, Anglicans (Episcopalian - out of which Puritans and Wesleyans come but theologically influenced by Presbyterians and reformed theology. Wesley took the Armenianist view point rather than Calvin), AnaBaptist (Jacob Amans and Menno Simmons - Amish or Mennonites - some influence though not much on Baptist), Reformed (Starting with Calvin then to - Presbeterians or Knox - influences on Puritans - influences on Baptist - influence on Methodist (through Armenius) which in turn Methodist influence the new Pentecostal movement). So these are the majority of the roots for Protestanst but under each theology there are more than one denomination which has been started. So 30,000 can be a good round figure.

 

[greggy53]

I think the number is closer to 67, 342.8972140687 But that’s just my stats. Acutually, I think there are quite a few more denominations than mentioned but if you were to catagorize them into influence you could break them down as you did. However, I break them down by the reformers. So you can have Lutherans, Anglicans (Episcopalian - out of which Puritans and Wesleyans come but theologically influenced by Presbyterians and reformed theology. Wesley took the Armenianist view point rather than Calvin), AnaBaptist (Jacob Amans and Menno Simmons - Amish or Mennonites - some influence though not much on Baptist), Reformed (Starting with Calvin then to - Presbeterians or Knox - influences on Puritans - influences on Baptist - influence on Methodist (through Armenius) which in turn Methodist influence the new Pentecostal movement). So these are the majority of the roots for Protestanst but under each theology there are more than one denomination which has been started. So 30,000 can be a good round figure.

Not trying to be a budinski here, just following the conversation. I have always wondered why Protestants name their churches " The First Baptist church of “”, or The First Congregational Church of""", or “The first Church of the Frigidair”…Nobody wants to be number two I guess?

 

[JonNC]

Not trying to be a budinski here, just following the conversation. I have always wondered why Protestants name their churches " The First Baptist church of “”, or The First Congregational Church of""", or “**The first Church of the Frigidair”…**Nobody wants to be number two I guess?

The first Church of the Frigidair

Now, that’s just cold!!

Actually, the reason is Protestants tend to be math challenged. That why we reduced the number of books in the Bible.

Jon