We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[motstraumen]

the Roman Catholic Church has never been wrong on dogmas/doctrines defined ex cathedra…

technically, (these are my words, not the Church’s) the Church hasn’t been “wrong” on anything Period…

just the people IN the Church have been wrong… sometimes terribly wrong… terribly sinful…

but Jesus said that the way to etnernal life was narrow and there are few who find it… few who are 'strong enough" to get into Heaven… scary words…

What have they proclaimed ex cathedra (which comes from Vatican I if I am not mistaken).?

 

[rinnie]

And by him moving them, he showed his disrespect for the Church. He should have never done it, and he knew it. If it did not make a difference you better tell the Protestants. THey saw a difference by what he did. He moved them, they moved them also. Right out!

The point is and still is why did he move them, and where was his authority? He did wrong. The church did not kick him out for no reason. The church had the authority to do so and exercised that authority. I was a big deal to the Church.

 

[rinnie]

You never did, rinnie, but I appreciate the charity in you comment. I know for certain that the Holy Spirit is working in the hearts of our leaders to bring us together. I pray the Holy Spirit helps us to see Him in each other.

Jon

Don’t worry he will. We all have the one thing in common. GOD! It will happen And the Holy Spirit will lead us home!

 

[JonNC]

Jon, You expressed this very well! Thank you. I should have read your response before I responded.

I appreciate your kind words, and your added information. I regret that these discussions always become heated, and instead of reflecting the greater sense of charity of this era, they look too much like 1535.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Don’t worry he will. We all have the one thing in common. GOD! It will happen And the Holy Spirit will lead us home!

 

[distracted]

He was concerned enough to issue that papal bull!

Now here we agree!!!

This book is Jack Chick in reverse. It is a horrible distortion. Even modern Roman Catholic scholars reject it, from what I understand.

You know I’m open minded, but not about Father O’Hare. Or is it Father O’Chick and Jack Hare? Either way, I have no time for them.

Jon

those 2 aren’t in the same ball park… i don’t think they are both are (or ever WERE both) on the same Planet…

i kinda thought Chick was from outer space… not sure where i got that notion… Oh, that’s right… i read some of his stuff…

 

[distracted]

What have they proclaimed ex cathedra (which comes from Vatican I if I am not mistaken).?

abortion is murder and having anything to do with it is an excommunicatable offense
masturbation is a serious (mortal) sin
there is no divorce-remarriage if the marriage is valid
artificial birth control is immoral…
there is a Hell
there is a purgatory

stuff like that…

 

[DorianGregorian]

No, he did not do away with the mass, and certainly not the Eucharist!

Remember though that Luther said “Let us destroy the Mass and we shall destroy the Church” (LeFebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics P.23)

Also Luther certainly rejected the doctrine of Transubstantiation ergo he rejected the proper intent of the Eucharist ergo there was no “Real Presence.”

It’s why all the Protestant “churches” which split from Rome do not have valid masses or valid Clergy.

 

[distracted]

I. But these books were not given the full weight of the canon until the Council of Trent, years after Luther died.

i tend not to believe this. i don’t know where you get your info… (i can imagine… I’m sure it isn’t from Catholics…). In any case, no point in arguing becaues neither your nor I was there…

Also the Catholic church has removed: I and II Esdras and the Prayer of Manassah. So perhaps the question must be also to the Roman church: Why?

the Church Christ established on EArth has the authority to do this. Obviously no other ecclessiastical community has this authority… only THE Church…

Jesus said to st Peter that “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven. whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven”…

that’s some serious power…

 

[DorianGregorian]

abortion is murder and having anything to do with it is an excommunicatable offense
masturbation is a serious (mortal) sin
there is no divorce-remarriage if the marriage is valid
artificial birth control is immoral…
there is a Hell
there is a purgatory

stuff like that…

There have only been two uses of Ex Cathedra, you are confusing Ex Cathedra Statements. The Divinity of Jesus for example is Dogmatic, the existence of Hell and Purgatory are Dogmatic.

However artifical birth control was only explicitly banned by Pope Paul VI in his Encyclical Humanae Vitae, which was a reinforcement of established teachings.

That Abortion is wrong is clearly established from the Church Fathers in the First Century. However the punishment (latae sententiae) is a part of Canon Law (Can. 1398)

The dogma of Papal infallibility defined in the First Vatican Council (again based on already established Theology). The only time a statement was made Ex Cathedra was by Pope Pius XII when he defined the Assumption of Mary. This is the only instance of an Ex Cathedra statment made by a Pope following the definition set forth by the first Vatican Council.

There have however been infallible statements made before Vatican I. It is just important to differentiate between “Infallibility” and “Ex Cathedra.” They have slightly different meanings.

Laus Deo

 

[DorianGregorian]

Jesus said to St. Peter that “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven. whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven”…

that’s some serious power…

You are right, but that statement is too general, if we get to the “nuts and bolts” there were three statements made in the Gospel your referring to (Matthew 16:17-19)

The Church is established by Jesus Christ on Peter the Rock. The successors of Peter run the Church on Heaven. (18)

The Church is given the Power of the Keys, they Keys are the power for Peter and his successors to lawfully exercise authority. (18)

The third power which you referenced, gives the Church the power to both forgive and not forgive sins, thus giving a basis for Confession. (19)

See this article: newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm

Laus Deo

 

[PJM]

=gurneyhalleck1;5306644]Why the quotations around the word “religion?” Lutheranism is a valid religion despite your not agreeing with it? Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are all religions? Why put quotations implying that it’s illegitimate?

Friend does not “A Religion” require a belief in a GOD?

Perhapes you’d care to reword your post?

 

[gcnuss]

Also Luther certainly rejected the doctrine of Transubstantiation ergo he rejected the proper intent of the Eucharist ergo there was no “Real Presence.”

Luther never rejected the “Real Presence.” He was adamant, even to the point of arguing against other reformers, that the body and blood of our Lord is truly present in the Eucharist.

The rejection of transubstantiation is a rejection of an explanation of how the real presence comes to be and not a rejection that it comes to be. Even the Orthodox, whom Catholics agree have a valid Eucharist, do not accept transubstantiation as defined by the Catholic church.

 

[DorianGregorian]

Luther never rejected the “Real Presence.” He was adamant, even to the point of arguing against other reformers, that the body and blood of our Lord is truly present in the Eucharist.

The rejection of transubstantiation is a rejection of an explanation of how the real presence comes to be and not a rejection that it comes to be. Even the Orthodox, whom Catholics agree have a valid Eucharist, do not accept transubstantiation as defined by the Catholic church.

While the Orthodox do not accept the term ‘transubstantiation’ neither do the Eastern Catholic Churches, they have the same understanding, and even use the term:

“In the celebration of we believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be present. He is not present typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, nor by a bare presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, or by impanation, so that the Divinity of the Word is united to the set forth bread of the Eucharist hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose. But [he is present] truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body Itself of the Lord, Which was born in Bethlehem of the ever-Virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of the God and Father, and is to come again in the clouds of Heaven; and the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the true Blood Itself of the Lord, Which as He hung upon the Cross, was poured out for the life of the world.” - Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 more info here: cresourcei.org/creeddositheus.html

In addition the Eastern Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, and some Oriental) have maintained Apostolic Succession, thus they have Valid, though illicit, Clergy.

Also while the Lutheran Church claims the ‘real presence’ they believe the erroneous belief of ‘the sacramental union’ which while not ‘consubstantiation’, still denies the fullness of the transubstantiation of the Bread and Wine into the True Body and Blood of Jesus, thus the intent is flawed which means there is no Consencration.

Even if the intent was not flawed, the Lutheran Church has not maintained Apostolic Succession (Luther was a Priest not a Bishop, therefore he had no power to Ordain) so the Clergy would not have the Sacrament of Holy Orders necessary for a valid Consencration.

Laus Deo

 

[rinnie]

Doesn’t even the thought of what the Eucharist is get your heart pumping. I believe one thing with all my heart and soul. THAT is what is going to get Everyone back to the One True Church. If everyones eyes could be opened to JUST THAT nothing else would matter. If everyone really understood what we are saying. EVEN TO SOME OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS THAT ARE CATHOLIC. Alot of them do not comprehend this to the full extend of what it is.

Could you imagine this being in the morning Paper

ATTENTION APPEARING FOR A SPECIAL PERFORMANCE ON SUNDAY AT 10 AM SUNDAY JESUS CHRIST IN THE REAL PRESENSE. SO So many people have no idea that this is what it means to be Catholic. We remember, we celebrate WE BELIEVE.

If people really understood you could not get a seat. Thats why I know they really do not understand what we are saying. No matter how bad this world is, Most People WANT GOD I know they do. I am sure of it. There is more good than bad. ITs pride, its all about pride. Always was. Well when it comes to Jesus Christ we ALL have to put our tail between our legs and crawl. The sooner the better for everyone. It all about GOD. Thats all that counts.

 

[PJM]

Doesn’t even the thought of what the Eucharist is get your heart pumping. I believe one thing with all my heart and soul. THAT is what is going to get Everyone back to the One True Church. If everyones eyes could be opened to JUST THAT nothing else would matter. If everyone really understood what we are saying. EVEN TO SOME OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS THAT ARE CATHOLIC. Alot of them do not comprehend this to the full extend of what it is.

Could you imagine this being in the morning Paper

ATTENTION APPEARING FOR A SPECIAL PERFORMANCE ON SUNDAY AT 10 AM SUNDAY JESUS CHRIST IN THE REAL PRESENSE. SO So many people have no idea that this is what it means to be Catholic. We remember, we celebrate WE BELIEVE.

If people really understood you could not get a seat. Thats why I know they really do not understand what we are saying. No matter how bad this world is, Most People WANT GOD I know they do. I am sure of it. There is more good than bad. ITs pride, its all about pride. Always was. Well when it comes to Jesus Christ we ALL have to put our tail between our legs and crawl. The sooner the better for everyone. It all about GOD. Thats all that counts.

Friend I love your post and I love you for posting it. Amen!

 

[rinnie]

Sometimes the Holy Spirit just takes over me and I can’t control myself

Sometimes he doesn’t Thats when I get into trouble

 

[distracted]

There have only been two uses of Ex Cathedra, you are confusing Ex Cathedra Statements. The Divinity of Jesus for example is Dogmatic, the existence of Hell and Purgatory are Dogmatic.

However artifical birth control was only explicitly banned by Pope Paul VI in his Encyclical Humanae Vitae, which was a reinforcement of established teachings.

That Abortion is wrong is clearly established from the Church Fathers in the First Century. However the punishment (latae sententiae) is a part of Canon Law (Can. 1398)

The dogma of Papal infallibility defined in the First Vatican Council (again based on already established Theology). The only time a statement was made Ex Cathedra was by Pope Pius XII when he defined the Assumption of Mary. This is the only instance of an Ex Cathedra statment made by a Pope following the definition set forth by the first Vatican Council.

There have however been infallible statements made before Vatican I. It is just important to differentiate between “Infallibility” and “Ex Cathedra.” They have slightly different meanings.

Laus Deo

maybe i’m tired (no maybe to it) but i dont quite understand this post…

 

[motstraumen]

abortion is murder and having anything to do with it is an excommunicatable offense
masturbation is a serious (mortal) sin
there is no divorce-remarriage if the marriage is valid
artificial birth control is immoral…
there is a Hell
there is a purgatory

stuff like that…

Are you sure those came ex cathedra?

 

[motstraumen]

While the Orthodox do not accept the term ‘transubstantiation’ neither do the Eastern Catholic Churches, they have the same understanding, and even use the term:

“In the celebration of we believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be present. He is not present typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, nor by a bare presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, or by impanation, so that the Divinity of the Word is united to the set forth bread of the Eucharist hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose. But [he is present] truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body Itself of the Lord, Which was born in Bethlehem of the ever-Virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of the God and Father, and is to come again in the clouds of Heaven; and the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the true Blood Itself of the Lord, Which as He hung upon the Cross, was poured out for the life of the world.” - Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 more info here: cresourcei.org/creeddositheus.html

In addition the Eastern Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, and some Oriental) have maintained Apostolic Succession, thus they have Valid, though illicit, Clergy.

Also while the Lutheran Church claims the ‘real presence’ they believe the erroneous belief of ‘the sacramental union’ which while not ‘consubstantiation’, still denies the fullness of the transubstantiation of the Bread and Wine into the True Body and Blood of Jesus, thus the intent is flawed which means there is no Consencration.

Even if the intent was not flawed, the Lutheran Church has not maintained Apostolic Succession (Luther was a Priest not a Bishop, therefore he had no power to Ordain) so the Clergy would not have the Sacrament of Holy Orders necessary for a valid Consencration.

Laus Deo

What of the Church of Sweden, Finland, Tanzania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithaunia.? Their bishops remained.