We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[distracted]

If Christ had paid the legal price for everyone’s sin, then God would be legally bound to owe man salvation, and he would be required to bring everyone to heaven. This is necessarily so because if a debt is fully paid, there can be no further payment. God being just could not exact double payment, He could not send anyone to Hell. The words “purchase” or “ransom” do not refer to the legal payment for sin but rather to the personal price Christ paid to propitiate the Father. Once redemption is applied to the individual through the individual’s own efforts, God infuses His grace into that individual, who is then cleansed from sin.

rist

i was going to comment on this…but you know… after re-reading waht you say, i have to say I cannot understand where you are coming from… You say this person taught this and that person that…

but you don’t make it clear what YOU belive…

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;5371650:

Eric, I love you brother, but if I may. Christ did take on the sins of the world and paid for every one of them by his death. Don’t get me wrong the protestants are not wrong on that one. Because by his death and resurrection he set us free. Thats why he is the Savior of the world.

But thats the point, He paid for them all by his death, but we must do our part and repent, confess and sin no more. Thats it.

QUOTE]

I am glad you love me. And, I am often wrong. But not here, not now. Neither are the ECFs and our Church. Protestants are very wrong on this one.

Christ **isn’t **

spending an eternity in Hell. And if He is, … why then must we be good?
He would have paid for all our sin, and we need fear nothing.

In Christ.

Good nite.

Let me explain it better Eric, Here is what I mean. When Jesus died on the cross he paid for all of our sins. It is because of that cross that we were forgiven. Now because of his death on the cross he took away original sin. Now just because he died on the cross for our sins does not mean that we can sin and go to heaven. What that means is in the O.T. sin separated them from God. There was no way from them to have their sins forgiven. His death and going to release them did that. Now back to us, There is no sin we can do that can separate us from God except to reject the Holy Spirit. Now if we sin, Jesus gave the Apostles the right to forgive our sin and reunite us back with God. But see just because Jesus died for ours sins does not mean that we do not have to repent, confess and do good. But what my point is by Jesus dying on the cross for ours sin, which he did, now we can be forgiven by confession. Do you understand what I am saying. Its the Blood of Christ that made that possible. So the protestants are not wrong in saying Jesus died for our sins. And sin can no longer separate us from Jesus. BUt what they do not understand is that by him giving the Priest the Power to forgive our sins is how Jesus saves us today. It was his death, paying for our sin, his inocent blood that paid for our sin. The ones we have now, and the ones in the future. But only if we obey his commandments and use that GRACE of confession to bring us back to God. Do you understand what I am saying? If not I will explain it better later.

 

[rinnie]

Also Eric, I do not understand how Jesus going to hades to release Souls means Jesus spend eternity in hell, and we do not have to be good. Either you mis-understood me, or I you. You can explain that to me what you meant when you get time. Thanks.

 

[eric51]

eric51;5372184:

Let me explain it better Eric, Here is what I mean. When Jesus died on the cross he paid for all of our sins. It is because of that cross that we were forgiven.

No. He redeemed us by substituting judgment by grace for judgment by law

. Under law, as Paul says, we all die because we are all imperfect and the Law required perfect compliance.

Now because of his death on the cross he took away original sin. Now just because he died on the cross for our sins does not mean that we can sin and go to heaven.

What do you mean he died for our sins? Did He take on your sins? If that is what you mean you are: 1. in disagreement with most Catholic Fathers, including Augustine. 2. You need to explain why He did not suffer the legal punishment for sin which is eternal damnation.

What that means is in the O.T. sin separated them from God.

In the NT, sin if it is serious, separates us from God.

There was no way from them to have their sins forgiven.

Mosaic Law prescribed certain works to fit certain sins, this is how sins were considered forgiven. Paul, in Romans, attacks this system because prescribed works [of the Law] he argues do not come from the heart and do not please God.

His death and going to release them did that. Now back to us, There is no sin we can do that can separate us from God except to reject the Holy Spirit.

Wrong. Mortal sin, if not repented, separates us from God.

Now if we sin, Jesus gave the Apostles the right to forgive our sin and reunite us back with God.

No. **Only ****God **forgives sin. God forgives you THROUGH a priest.

But see just because Jesus died for ours sins does not mean that we do not have to repent, confess and do good. But what my point is by Jesus dying on the cross for ours sin, which he did, now we can be forgiven by confession. Do you understand what I am saying.

Not really. You started, yesterday, by arguing Christ assumed, took on, our sins. That was your criticism of my post. Now you seem to be hedging on that.

Its the Blood of Christ that made that possible. So the protestants are not wrong in saying Jesus died for our sins. And sin can no longer separate us from Jesus.

Most protestants say that Christ took on, assumed, all of humanity’s sin. This is not the majority opinion of the Catholic Church. It is not theologically tenable.

BUt what they do not understand is that by him giving the Priest the Power to forgive our sins is how Jesus saves us today.

Priests cannot forgive sin anymore than you or I can.

It was his death, paying for our sin, his inocent blood that paid for our sin. The ones we have now, and the ones in the future. But only if we obey his commandments and use that GRACE of confession to bring us back to God. Do you understand what I am saying? If not I will explain it better later.

You need to reread what I originally posted. Then reread your first response to my post. Your argument seems to have changed.

In Christ

 

[eric51]

i was going to comment on this…but you know… after re-reading waht you say, i have to say I cannot understand where you are coming from… You say this person taught this and that person that…

but you don’t make it clear what YOU belive…

Perhaps, if you went back one day and reread my post on Faith Alone and Forensic Imputation, you would have understood that I was responding to … I cannot remember the member’s name] a post which asked me to clarify certain points with regard to Sanctification and the meaning of the Sacrifice on the Cross.

My position in a nutshell is that christians must **apply **the merits of Jesus’ Passion to themselves through their Will and Good Works. Otherwise, initial Faith Alone, will not Save. Protestants dispute this arguing that Faith Alone is all that is necessary because Jesus’ Passion forgave all sin, and all they need to do is engage in a One-Time Act of Faith [Faith Alone].

In Christ

 

[eric51]

Also Eric, I do not understand how Jesus going to hades to release Souls means Jesus spend eternity in hell, and we do not have to be good. Either you mis-understood me, or I you. You can explain that to me what you meant when you get time. Thanks.

I certainly do not understand you. Protestant theologians try to support their Faith Alone and Forensic Imputation heresies by saying Christ took on all of humanity’s sins into Himself.

I am simply pointing out what far more intelligent people than me have said long ago, people like Augustine, Justin Martyr, for example. That is, if Christ assumed all of humanity’s sin, he would have had to pay the price for that sin: eternal damnation. And, if to follow that heresy to its conclusion, if all sin was assumed by Christ, that would leave all of humanity free to sin and to have no price to pay. Otherwise, God would be exacting a double penalty: Christ paid the price for our sin, and we are being asked to pay a price for it too—hence, double penalty.

My position is that Christ became human and was willing to be crucified for us, so that we would be judged by grace not law. This is the majority position of the Catholic Church.

In Christ

 

[rinnie]

I certainly do not understand you. Protestant theologians try to support their Faith Alone and Forensic Imputation heresies by saying Christ took on all of humanity’s sins into Himself.

I am simply pointing out what far more intelligent people than me have said long ago, people like Augustine, Justin Martyr, for example. That is, if Christ assumed all of humanity’s sin, he would have had to pay the price for that sin: eternal damnation. And, if to follow that heresy to its conclusion, if all sin was assumed by Christ, that would leave all of humanity free to sin and to have no price to pay. Otherwise, God would be exacting a double penalty: Christ paid the price for our sin, and we are being asked to pay a price for it too—hence, double penalty.

My position is that Christ became human and was willing to be crucified for us, so that we would be judged by grace not law. This is the majority position of the Catholic Church.

In Christ

Okay let me try again. Remember when Jesus died and went to hades. He went there eric to Baptise the souls there and release them. That is why when Jesus died Heaven was opened up. Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. You are correct we are judged by Christ, when Jesus died and rose again we got the new law. But Eric listen to what I am saying. THe souls that Jesus went to release did not have the new law. See what I am saying. Jesus doing what he did made the new law possible. The old law did not make it possible to be released from original sin. SInce Adam and Eve we were all born with it. Baptism Eric, Baptism removed original sin. Do you understand now. Jesus had to Baptise the souls waiting to be released in hades by Baptism. Original sin could only be wiped out by Baptism. Are you understanding what I am saying now Eric. Trust me Eric this is Catholic teaching.

 

[sambos671]

I certainly do not understand you. Protestant theologians try to support their Faith Alone and Forensic Imputation heresies by saying Christ took on all of humanity’s sins into Himself.

I am simply pointing out what far more intelligent people than me have said long ago, people like Augustine, Justin Martyr, for example. That is, if Christ assumed all of humanity’s sin, he would have had to pay the price for that sin: eternal damnation. And, if to follow that heresy to its conclusion, if all sin was assumed by Christ, that would leave all of humanity free to sin and to have no price to pay. Otherwise, God would be exacting a double penalty: Christ paid the price for our sin, and we are being asked to pay a price for it too—hence, double penalty.

My position is that Christ became human and was willing to be crucified for us, so that we would be judged by grace not law. This is the majority position of the Catholic Church.

In Christ

Examples please. I’m still digesting what your saying. Is Forensic Imputation your phrase or is it coined from somewhere else? Just trying to clarify. So are you saying that all Christ did was give us the opportunity to save ourselves by our deeds? So ok under sin and the Law there is no way you can keep them. So now comes the New covenant which places us in a circumstance that in order to acheive glory we must do the right amount of stuff to be considered worthy of heaven?

 

[rinnie]

But Eric the protestant theory is wrong I agree, but not all of it. THey are just confused in parts of it. Jesus wiped out original sin. By doing that we could get into heaven. But only now if we do not have actual sin. THose are our sins. But he still gave us an out. Grace. That grace is confession. But do you understand what I am saying. It took inocent blood to wipe out Original Sin. So Jesus paid for those sins. Talk to Father Eric, he will explain better. Then let me know if it makes more sense.

 

[rinnie]

Examples please. I’m still digesting what your saying. Is Forensic Imputation your phrase or is it coined from somewhere else? Just trying to clarify. So are you saying that all Christ did was give us the opportunity to save ourselves by our deeds? So ok under sin and the Law there is no way you can keep them. So now comes the New covenant which places us in a circumstance that in order to acheive glory we must do the right amount of stuff to be considered worthy of heaven?

I really think what he is trying to say is faith without works is useless. But I am not sure he understands original sin from actual sin.

 

[rinnie]

Examples please. I’m still digesting what your saying. Is Forensic Imputation your phrase or is it coined from somewhere else? Just trying to clarify. So are you saying that all Christ did was give us the opportunity to save ourselves by our deeds? So ok under sin and the Law there is no way you can keep them. So now comes the New covenant which places us in a circumstance that in order to acheive glory we must do the right amount of stuff to be considered worthy of heaven?

Sambos I am a little confused by your last line also. Are you saying that to be considered worthy of heaven we do not have to obey the old law commandments? Because if you are I totally disagree with you. Just because Jesus made it possible to get into heaven by taking away original sin, Does not mean we are getting in. We must now through the Grace he gave us do the right thing. Grace does not do it for us, It just gives us the power to do it. We still have to use that grace. IF we use that grace we turn away from sin, if we reject that grace we turn to sin.

 

[sambos671]

Sambos I am a little confused by your last line also. Are you saying that to be considered worthy of heaven we do not have to obey the old law commandments? Because if you are I totally disagree with you. Just because Jesus made it possible to get into heaven by taking away original sin, Does not mean we are getting in. We must now through the Grace he gave us do the right thing. Grace does not do it for us, It just gives us the power to do it. We still have to use that grace. IF we use that grace we turn away from sin, if we reject that grace we turn to sin.

No rinnie, thats not what I’m saying or proposing. I’m seeking clarification on what eric meant. It is how I understand what he’s saying. My method for understanding people is to say back to them what I think they are saying. If its correct then they will afirm me if not they will clarify.

 

[eric51]

Okay let me try again. Remember when Jesus died and went to hades. He went there eric to Baptise the souls there and release them. That is why when Jesus died Heaven was opened up.

Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. You are correct we are judged by Christ, when Jesus died and rose again we got the new law. But Eric listen to what I am saying. THe souls that Jesus went to release did not have the new law. See what I am saying. Jesus doing what he did made the new law possible. The old law did not make it possible to be released from original sin.

I am not certain why you are injecting this into the thread. Original sin, Baptism, are not directly related to the discussion of Faith Alone, Forensic Imputation and the meaning of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross.

The Old Covenant required perfect compliance and humans being fallible couldn’t comply perfectly, therefore, we were all condemned as guilty [death]. That is the significance of the Old Covenant as it relates to the recent thread of discussion.

SInce Adam and Eve we were all born with it. Baptism Eric, Baptism removed original sin. Do you understand now. Jesus had to Baptise the souls waiting to be released in hades by Baptism. Original sin could only be wiped out by Baptism. Are you understanding what I am saying now Eric. Trust me Eric this is Catholic teaching.

Again, I do not believe what you are saying is directly relevant. However, I would point out that you seem to be mixing some of Mormon doctrine with Catholic doctrine. Jesus went to Sheol or Hades to avail them of His merits so they could be Judged. At least, that is my understanding. Dead people cannot be baptized. Only Mormons would argue with that.

Trust me, that is Catholic teaching.

In Christ

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;5374594:

Okay let me try again. Remember when Jesus died and went to hades. He went there eric to Baptise the souls there and release them. That is why when Jesus died Heaven was opened up.

Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. You are correct we are judged by Christ, when Jesus died and rose again we got the new law. But Eric listen to what I am saying. THe souls that Jesus went to release did not have the new law. See what I am saying. Jesus doing what he did made the new law possible. The old law did not make it possible to be released from original sin.

I am not certain why you are injecting this into the thread. Original sin, Baptism, are not directly related to the discussion of Faith Alone, Forensic Imputation and the meaning of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross.

The Old Covenant required perfect compliance and humans being fallible couldn’t comply perfectly, therefore, we were all condemned as guilty [death]. That is the significance of the Old Covenant as it relates to the recent thread of discussion.

SInce Adam and Eve we were all born with it. Baptism Eric, Baptism removed original sin. Do you understand now. Jesus had to Baptise the souls waiting to be released in hades by Baptism. Original sin could only be wiped out by Baptism. Are you understanding what I am saying now Eric. Trust me Eric this is Catholic teaching.

Again, I do not believe what you are saying is directly relevant. However, I would point out that you seem to be mixing some of Mormon doctrine with Catholic doctrine. Jesus went to Sheol or Hades to avail them of His merits so they could be Judged. At least, that is my understanding. Dead people cannot be baptized. Only Mormons would argue with that.

Trust me, that is Catholic teaching.

In Christ

Eric original sin is related to the faith alone issue. That is why protestants are getting mixed up. When Adam sinned he was thrown out of the Garden of Eden. He separated us from God. Once Adam sinned, our harmony with God, with each other, and the world around us was all shattered. We call this original sin.

Everyone of us is a heir to Adam. Their sin was thrown on us, thats why we have sin, and death. their sin was transmitted to us.

It took Jesus Christ the NEW ADAM to redeem us. It had to be somone who had no sin. It was Jesus who restored our harmony where it had be destoryed. That is how he died and saved us from sin. He reunited us with God. Where Adam and Eve failed and disobey God, Jesus and the Blessed Mother were the complete opposite. By his death on the cross he wiped out original sin. So when the bible says Jesus paid for our sin once and for all he did. Original sin. No one else could have done this. We could never have seen God without Jesus paying for our sin. That is what the incarnation is. It would be a human body fashioned from Mary that would suffer and die, rise from the dead and win salvation for us.

Now it is possible to be with God. Before Jesus and because of Adam and Eve it wasn’t.

If we could get the protestant faith to understand how important this was, then we could explain original sin and actual sin.

Jesus went to hades to Preach the Good news. What do you think that means Eric?

 

[thecourt]

As a Latter Day Saint, or most know me and my church in general, the Mormons, I will not have part of this because I believe there is truth found in general a host of events, a person’s life experience, gifted and talented, which I submit, we all have a gift and talent to share.

Truth is truth and I recognize that my views are confusing and/or used to continue a agenda that is contrary to the God and Jesus Christ. I will defend anyone who believes in God and Jesus whether they agree me or not. The Holy Ghost reveals truth – the devil continues to be the great deceiver.

 

[rinnie]

As a Latter Day Saint, or most know me and my church in general, the Mormons, I will not have part of this because I believe there is truth found in general a host of events, a person’s life experience, gifted and talented, which I submit, we all have a gift and talent to share.

Truth is truth and I recognize that my views are confusing and/or used to continue a agenda that is contrary to the God and Jesus Christ. I will defend anyone who believes in God and Jesus whether they agree me or not. The Holy Ghost reveals truth – the devil continues to be the great deceiver.

Court, I am not sure if you are talking to me or not. If you are what are you not having a part of. Clarify please. Thanks

 

[eric51]

eric51;5374791:

Eric original sin is related to the faith alone issue. That is why protestants are getting mixed up.

Original sin is at most, **indirectly **

related to Faith Alone, Forensic Imputation and the significance of Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross. And protestants are mixed up for many, many, reasons.

When Adam sinned he was thrown out of the Garden of Eden. He separated us from God. Once Adam sinned, our harmony with God, with each other, and the world around us was all shattered. We call this original sin.

True, but not directly relevant to this thread.

Everyone of us is a heir to Adam. Their sin was thrown on us, thats why we have sin, and death. their sin was transmitted to us.

Again, for the last time, original sin is not relevant to this thread.

It took Jesus Christ the NEW ADAM to redeem us. It had to be somone who had no sin. It was Jesus who restored our harmony where it had be destoryed. That is how he died and saved us from sin. He reunited us with God. Where Adam and Eve failed and disobey God, Jesus and the Blessed Mother were the complete opposite. By his death on the cross he wiped out original sin. So when the bible says Jesus paid for our sin once and for all he did. Original sin.

Jesus did not pay for our sins in the sense you are saying. His willingness to make an **expiation **to the Father on behalf of Humanity provides us with an **opportunity **to merit, in God’s eyes, eternal salvation, as long as we **apply His merits to ourselves **thru obedient faith and works of charity. This is the last time I will say this to you.

No one else could have done this. We could never have seen God without Jesus paying for our sin. That is what the incarnation is. It would be a human body fashioned from Mary that would suffer and die, rise from the dead and win salvation for us.

Actually, no. The incarnation is God assuming the form of man and placing His divine nature along with human nature, in that man. No one sees God unless they are judged saved. In heaven the BEATIFIC VISION is when we first see God.

Now it is possible to be with God. Before Jesus and because of Adam and Eve it wasn’t.

Not exactly. Jesus’ Passion and Resurrection have provided a larger injection of grace into this world. If that is what you mean by being with God, then, yes, I agree.

If we could get the protestant faith to understand how important this was, then we could explain original sin and actual sin.

Protestants need to understand a great many more things about christian theology, than original and actual sin.

Jesus went to hades to Preach the Good news. What do you think that means Eric?

No offense, Rinnie. But your understanding of christianity, catholicism in particular, needs substantial strengthening. I am not a theologian, so I am not the one to instruct you. I sincerely suggest you go to your local parish and inquire about various classes. Also, have a lengthy discussion with your parish priest about the fundamentals of christianity. Once you have done this you will be in a better position to judge which posts in this chat forum are stating accurate things and which are not. Until then, I fear indiscriminate exposure to such posts will only serve to confuse you further.

God Bless.

 

[thecourt]

For those who asked for my clarification, truth is truth.

Either the Church of Jesus Christ in its true state is here on the earth or God is a liar, and I submit he has not lied.

With that being said, all churches, whether they have some of truth or none at all, yet benefit in forwarding one’s conscience to consider truth, is my point.

The continued whatever it is being called – differences between Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, etc is going on its road. Some pay attention, others have no recognition that a debate is going on.

When truth continues to win versus evil, my life is further liberated.

 

[rinnie]

For those who asked for my clarification, truth is truth.

Either the Church of Jesus Christ in its true state is here on the earth or God is a liar, and I submit he has not lied.

With that being said, all churches, whether they have some of truth or none at all, yet benefit in forwarding one’s conscience to consider truth, is my point.

The continued whatever it is being called – differences between Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, etc is going on its road. Some pay attention, others have no recognition that a debate is going on.

When truth continues to win versus evil, my life is further liberated.

Court I agree with You. And yes the Church Of Jesus CHrist is here on earth. It is the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ is the CC. He is alive in the Eucharist. God has never nor will he ever Lie. And I am sorry there is a big difference between Catholic’s and mormans.

The BIG< HUGE difference is mormans believe in many gods, that Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers and that dark skin people is supposedly a curse from God in punishment for wickedness. They never tell you this up front, thats saved for initiates.

So I do not know what your point is, BUt I am sure everyone knows there is a debate going on. The Catholic Church will never accept the teachings of the Mormon Church, cannot accept it because it does not hold the fullness of the Truth. The Catholic Church claims it, can prove it because it is also in fullness with the bible. The mormon church is not. On tons of issues.

Starting with GOD. There is one God, not many.

 

[rinnie]

Eric I am not sure where you are comming from. Let me ask you one question. Where did Jesus go after he died on the Cross? Do you not agree that Adam and Eve brought sin into the world and we are born into original sin?