We Changed the Church and Regret It

[wisdomseeker]

Well, good on Brian Walden! But mark these words, because they are not mine: TLM will be a let down, as those in attendance will still arrive late, leave early, be looking around, minds wandering, letting their kids run and make noise, and cell phones will still be going off. It’s nostalgia that cannot be relived. If some demand Latin, fine. Give me something I understand, just as the last 5 Popes have declared.

where in the world did you ever see such a thing? in the TLM? i think you are confused. this all happens in teh OF Mass. i had to walk out once because of that. at night Mass, teenagers with cameras and cellular during the whole Mass. it bothered me so much taht i walked out. i never saw this ever in the TLM. ever. they have a total reverent behave in teh TLM, not one sound in hte Church. not one. everybody just prays.

 

[ProVobis]

“A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of Communism.”

That reminds me. One of the biggest criticisms of the time was that Vatican II didn’t condemn Communism as was expected. Instead the progressives had a way to push their agenda (throw out Latin, birth control okayed, introduce confusion, and throw in as much of their own theology in as possible) through. “Let the conscience be your guide” (from the 1967 PP) was the new party line. It was a very strong movement throught the 60’s and 70’s.

 

[ProVobis]

It has much more participation by the people, has done away with the notion that a priest is the end-all ruler in his parish, has introduced some wonderful contemporary music that did not go back centuries, has adopted the vernacular so that everybody can understand all parts of the mass

Where is there evidence that the vernacular has made the Mass more understandable?

I’m sorry but this “now we understand” is just the standard party line for trying to suppress Latin and liberalize the changing of the meaning of the liturgy. As we see now that was not a good idea. Who really understood this “one in being with the Father” theology anyway?

 

[HCC]

The man who lived before V2, through V2 and since V2, with his heart hurting from how it was carried out, is now at the helm. The Church is a big ship and takes time to turn around. Leave him alone at the wheel and rejoice in the new tack she takes.

My Dear Friend,

“The man at the helm,” our Holy Father, was one of the people “at the helm” of Vatican II. He was instrumental in helping create many of the changes and aiding and abetting the so-called, “Spirit of Vatican II.”

He is known as the greatest living mind in the Church today. Respected by his peers on the left and the right for his intellectual ability and knowledge.

Here is an interesting article that might help shed some light on where our Holy Father is coming from theologically and intellectually:

ignatiusinsight.com/features2008/mhheim_introjr_jan08.asp

If you merely rely on the buzz phrases floating in the media and fail to study the subject on your own, in an in-depth manner, how could you possibly make such statements as the one above?

 

[ProVobis]

If some demand Latin, fine. Give me something I understand, just as the last 5 Popes have declared.

I have to disagree with you there if you’re talking about suppressing Latin. As Pope John XXIII was one of the last 5 Popes, he effectively banned the vernacular.

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

As it turned out, the progressives defied this encyclical and promoted their own ideas.

 

[the_phoenix]

Well, good on Brian Walden! But mark these words, because they are not mine: TLM will be a let down, as those in attendance will still arrive late, leave early, be looking around, minds wandering, letting their kids run and make noise, and cell phones will still be going off. It’s nostalgia that cannot be relived. If some demand Latin, fine. Give me something I understand, just as the last 5 Popes have declared.

As one who prefers the Latin-language Mass over the English-language Mass, I can readily admit that the Mass attendees at my TLM parish are … wait for it … sinners! I could actually tell you stories about the various things I’ve witnessed, from the cutest incident being a darling pre-schooler who enjoys growling like a tiger to hear the echo carry through the church at Communion time, to ruder incidents involving adults old enough to know better.

My English-language parish contains a different set of … once again … sinners! Again, I could catalog incidents of disruptive or otherwise rude behavior that I’ve witnessed. Yes, I belong to two parishes. I haven’t quit one in disgust to join the other based on language … I’ve found two parishes where overall, there is respect for Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, and where the priests give good sermons in agreement with the Pope and the teachings of the Church.

Why do I prefer the Latin Mass? I could give a lengthy explanation based on the Holy Trinity. The short explanation is that I feel called to it. It sometimes seems that my attempts to travel downtown to the Latin Mass seem to bring on spiritual battles and obstacles to overcome. In any case, on any particular Sunday, I would like to attend Mass at the parish where the Holy Spirit wants me that day.

Sometimes it seems to me that people can become overly concerned about not understanding the words of a foreign language at Mass. I would answer, just give it a try and see what you may be missing out on. Don’t worry about what page you should be looking on when … I don’t even use a missal. While I did study Latin in high school and could follow along with the written word if I really wanted, I don’t get worried if I can’t make out every spoken word from the priest or sung word by the choir. In any case, I just find myself completely immersed in the spirituality of the Latin Mass, breathing it in as it surrounds me, like a contemplative prayer experience.

And were I to actually describe in a lengthier post what I learned about the Holy Trinity at the Latin Mass, you might think it to be ironic that what I failed to understand in English all my life immediately became clear to me in an instant simply due to my presence one day at the Latin Mass!

I’ll just sign myself off for now as,
a sinner who attends both
the Mass in Latin and the Mass in English …
… so be careful who you sit next to,
because it might be me!

~~ the phoenix

 

[edwest2]

At the time of Vatican II the church faced two alternatives. Remain as it was or become more attuned to a changing world. The Latin mass with all of its solemnity had been engrained in millions of Catholics. and there was considerable division when it was changed. A sister-in-law actually left the church because of this and ended up without a church connection of any kind.

 The idea of returning to pre-Vatican ways would only succeed in alienating millions today who never knew the old mass and are content with the present one. It has much more participation by the people, has done away with the notion that a priest is the end-all ruler in his parish, has introduced some wonderful contemporary music that did not go back centuries, has adopted the vernacular so that everybody can understand all parts of the mass, has diminished an emphasis on ornate statuary which made many non-Catholics think of Catholics as pagans, etc. Frankly, I would suggest a few additional changes, but this is not the place to do that.

 Okay, so a few of the 40,000 or so parish priests went overboard. That was inevitable.

 Catholicism in the US and Europe has suffered massive losses, true, but those losses would have been even greater had Vatican II not moved the church from medievalism into the world of today.

The “world of today” is a pagan creation. Pagans are saying religion, all of them, should be abolished. We now have hedonism 24/7, thanks to what? Vatican II? Humanae Vitae? The Sexual Revolution. In what country can you see a young doctor on TV pick up a man at a bar for anonymous sex? How about a TV show where a man who works in a police crime lab by day, kidnaps and cuts up people at night?

We are living in decadent, orgy-filled Rome circa 2010.

We loved our priests and never looked at them as some sort of threat or overlord.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

One of the biggest losses for the Church after Vatican II was the end of the Friday fast from meat. It gave Catholics identity along with a reminder of what Christ did for us on Good Friday. I know, we are supposed to do another penitential act— but how many of us do so?

“biggest losses”? We were given a permission. We lost nothing. Why are you trying to make it sound like a catastrophe occurred? I still pass various places that offer a Friday Fish Fry.

And who took away our identity? Does the Church need to send someone with a gun to get people to do something? Honestly.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

That reminds me. One of the biggest criticisms of the time was that Vatican II didn’t condemn Communism as was expected. Instead the progressives had a way to push their agenda (throw out Latin, birth control okayed, introduce confusion, and throw in as much of their own theology in as possible) through. “Let the conscience be your guide” (from the 1967 PP) was the new party line. It was a very strong movement throught the 60’s and 70’s.

That is simply not true. Communism was the biggest concern going into Vatican II.

When was the Cuban Missile Crisis? October 1962. When did Vatican II start? October 1962. I was there when the Russians deployed nuclear missiles in Cuba, troops were on their way to Florida and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were pushing President Kennedy for all out nuclear war.

God bless,
Ed

 

[ProVobis]

That is simply not true. Communism was the biggest concern going into Vatican II.

Isn’t this what I implied?

I do remember the Bay of Pigs and events leading up to the Vietnam War as well.

 

[mark_a]

We fought to change the Church and then walked away, leaving those who loved it as it was with the remnants of our botched attempt.

I have to wonder if we should have started the revolution at all.

How sad.

I have my own regrets, nearly always centered around not listening to the Church. Thank God.

 

[Javl]

Well, good on Brian Walden! But mark these words, because they are not mine: TLM will be a let down, as those in attendance will still arrive late, leave early, be looking around, minds wandering, letting their kids run and make noise, and cell phones will still be going off. It’s nostalgia that cannot be relived. If some demand Latin, fine. Give me something I understand, just as the last 5 Popes have declared.

Have you attended TLM? The ones that I have attended in various parishes in no way come close to resembling your description. The majority of worshipers were young adults with very young children who, believe it or not, were very quiet during the mass as if Jesus was there talking to them. Not one cel-phone rang, no loud speaking, except for prayer response, and no short shorts or tank-tops, etc. All were civily and properly dressed and there was an aura of piety and spirituality which I find sadly missing in the NOM. Nostalgia, or not, TLM will supplant the NOM.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Canto]

Where is there evidence that the vernacular has made the Mass more understandable?

According to secular and Catholic research, belief in the real presence has plumitted in the U.S.

When the Priest said in Latin, “The Body of Christ, may it preserve your soul to eternal life, Amen.” More people believed in the real presence.

Now the Priest says in the vernacular “the body of Christ.” and the communciant replies “Amen.”

Wasn’t a new simplifed Mass with parts in the vernacular supposed to make things more understandable for the average Joe in the pew?

The Eucharist is supposed to be the source and summit (said Vat II LG) of our lives, yet belief is so low. Now some will say we just need better catechesis. Well all those years ago, if people supposidly didn’t get the Mass, instead of changing the Mass, why not have just changed the catechesis?

 

[ProVobis]

Now the Priest says in the vernacular “the body of Christ.” and the communciant replies “Amen.”

And that can get misinterpreted by some as being (among other things) representative of the mystical body of Christ, or the church itself. The TLM’s formula is more to the point about what communion is all about and is more authentic in the Latin.

“Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen.”

Such beautiful words. I really don’t know why they changed that.

 

[georgewithfaith]

“Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen.”

Such beautiful words. I really don’t know why they changed that.

Excellent point! This change was something I never knew about until I attended a Tridentine Mass this spring. The Novus Ordo was introduced a few months after my birth. Thus, many in my generation are not even aware of what was lost by this change and that is sad.

 

[pnewton]

If you are so progressive and open minded to change, try understanding why millions of people all over the world want the Extraordinary Form. Otherwise, enjoy the Mass you attend and God’s blessings to you.

And hundreds of millions do not. As you pointed out earlier, the Holy Father has said on different occasions that there can be no question of going back. I really hope to see a wider TLM availability, but there is simply no evidence that things will return.

 

[HCC]

And hundreds of millions do not. As you pointed out earlier, the Holy Father has said on different occasions that there can be no question of going back. I really hope to see a wider TLM availability, but there is simply no evidence that things will return.

Dear pnewton,

I was addressing that particular poster’s 3-post rant, which was terribly ill-informed. I never mentioned ANYTHING about an exclusive return to TLM.

I was merely mentioning that millions of people around the world prefer Mass in the Extraordinary Form and perhaps he should understand why that is.

Please follow the threads going forward.

 

[pnewton]

Dear pnewton,

I was addressing that particular poster’s 3-post rant, which was terribly ill-informed. I never mentioned ANYTHING about an exclusive return to TLM.

I know. I was addressing the whole thread and the general concept of regret. I have noted a poster that said we* will* return to the TLM. You also linked a quote in post 43 that addressed this:

We cannot return to the past, nor have we any desire to do so. But we must be ready to reflect anew on that which, in the lapse of time, has remained the one constant. To seek it without distraction and to dare to accept, with joyful heart and without diminution, the foolishness of truth—this, I think, is the task for today and for tomorrow. [1]

I post my way. You post yours. As long as charity is not forgotten and no other rules are broken, then there is not reason to criticize.

 

[ProVobis]

And hundreds of millions do not. As you pointed out earlier, the Holy Father has said on different occasions that there can be no question of going back. I really hope to see a wider TLM availability, but there is simply no evidence that things will return.

pn, we’re not going back to computer punched cards or electonic tubes or mechanical levers in the voting booths. We’re just keeping the 1962 Missal with all its splendor and glory that have permeated the Church for many centuries. Don’t the Anglicans still use some 400 yr old missal? Do we say they’re going back to anything? Real art and real beauty are timeless.

 

[thealtonroute]

Do you think you’ll see Fr. So-and-So with a sledge hammer smashing the Vatican II altar to pieces and later tossing it into the dumpster outside the church? Even as ugly as those altars are, I hope we never again see the viciousness with which priests of years past destroyed their parishioners’ beloved altars and statues.