We Changed the Church and Regret It

[Tamsulosin]

I do not like or believe in the image of priests “viciously” destroying statues representing the virgen or saints.I believe they disposed of them with respect, following the new instructions handed to them by Vatican.

 

[Timothy17]

Nostalgia? How about a sense of the sacred.

The comments of this young man (not much younger than myself) answer your concerns beautifully:

Brian Walden says:

I can’t speak for everyone, but here’s my opinion as an under-30 Catholic: There’s a shift going on and more and more Catholics want to return to standing out from the general culture. I hope this isn’t a full repeal of Vatican II, but rather a correct implementation of it where we engage and change the world around us without becoming part of it. I think this may be the real story; the liturgy is just the field where this battle is played out.

I’m noticing more and more that I desire the Church to not only be a spiritual refuge for sinners through the sacraments but to also be a physical refuge. Where my friends and family tell me to ignore the hard teachings of the Church, I wish my fellow parishioners would push me to try to live them to their fullest. Where mass media and culture tries to force relativistic values on everyone, I wish there was a strong Catholic culture to help create a buffer and affirm absolute truth. Where art has turned into a medium of conveying an artist’s personal agenda rather than the truths of the human condition, I wish my church were filled with stained glass windows and statues and hymns to flood my senses with inspiration.

This is how it should be, but all too often it’s not. And more than the examples above, the liturgy should be a refuge from the world around us. It should take us both to the foot of the cross and to the great wedding feast when Christ comes for his Bride. Because Mass is the most important thing in a Catholic’s life, I think the liturgy is where this difference between what the average parish should be and what it really is becomes the most evident.

While I support the liberal use of the Traditional Latin Mass, I don’t think it’s the only option. What people, especially those too young to ever have attended a TLM before the new missal, want more than anything is reverence - a Mass that lifts them up to God. Because the Novus Ordo Mass is so frequently abused, or at the very least not celebrated as reverently as it easily could be, young people turn to the TLM. If they could find a reverent NO Mass near them with incense and altar bells and high quality hymns and meaty homilies and the priest facing East and Latin for common prayers if not the entire Mass, I think most orthodox Catholics would be happy. These things are the standard for the NO Mass, yet sadly they’re hard to find so people opt for the TLM if there’s one available.

As another under-30 Catholic, I fully agree with this man.

Pax,
Tim

 

[malphono]

And that can get misinterpreted by some as being (among other things) representative of the mystical body of Christ, or the church itself. The TLM’s formula is more to the point about what communion is all about and is more authentic in the Latin.

“Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen.”

Such beautiful words. I really don’t know why they changed that.

I can top that one: the ancient formula for communion used in the Maronite Church translates as: “The Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ are given to you for the forgiveness sins, the remission of faults, and for everlasting life. Amen” (and despite certain obvious similarities, it was not a latinization).

Now, in the post-conciliar period, the Maronite formula is the same as the in the Roman Rite OF (which, of course, means that it is now a latinization.) Some clergy (including the occasional bishop) are sometimes a bit nostalgic and modify the formula to say: “The Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ are given to you for everlasting life.” Much better, but still not quite the same.

The point is, it’s not only the Latin Rite OF that’s affected. I only wish it were.

 

[thealtonroute]

I do not like or believe in the image of priests “viciously” destroying statues representing the virgen or saints.I believe they disposed of them with respect, following the new instructions handed to them by Vatican.

Yeah, I don’t think so. Read this:

realnews247.com/parishioners_cry_sacrilege.htm Unlike the parishioners there, however, I couldn’t care less if a bishop threatened me with excommunication for trying to save an altar. It’s a bogus threat anyway.

A man from a rural northwestern Ohio parish told me that his pastor asked to borrow a sledge hammer from a parishioner. Unbeknownst to the parishioner, the priest used the hammer to smash the communion rail to pieces and later burnt the wreckage behind the church. Even God can’t protect our churches from such arrogant priests.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yeah, I don’t think so. Read this:

realnews247.com/parishioners_cry_sacrilege.htm Unlike the parishioners there, however, I couldn’t care less if a bishop threatened me with excommunication for trying to save an altar. It’s a bogus threat anyway.

A man from a rural northwestern Ohio parish told me that his pastor asked to borrow a sledge hammer from a parishioner. Unbeknownst to the parishioner, the priest used the hammer to smash the communion rail to pieces and later burnt the wreckage behind the church. Even God can’t protect our churches from such arrogant priests.

how sacrilegious to destroy years of work of the hands of those whom God blessed. still we see no repentence. no wonder the Church is going through so many crisis. that is our punishment. but to them there is no more punishment. if they had any love and reverence for God, they would never have done such a thing.

 

[fulbert4605]

One of the biggest losses for the Church after Vatican II was the end of the Friday fast from meat. It gave Catholics identity along with a reminder of what Christ did for us on Good Friday. I know, we are supposed to do another penitential act— but how many of us do so?

In The Ratzinger Report (1985) this question came up.

Interviewer: “Your Eminence, if the ‘corporeal forms of expression’ of the faith are disappearing among Catholics (surviving, perhaps, among restricted cloistered elites), the orientation of the institutional Church has had a role in it: through a series of measures coming from Rome, Friday abstinence, vigils, Advent and other special times of fasting have been mitigated.”

Then-Cardinal Ratzinger: “True, but the intention was good. It was a matter of eliminating suspicions of legalism, of temptations to transform religion into external practices. What certainly remains is that fasting, abstinence and other penaces must continue to be linked to personal reponsibility. But it is also important that we find the way back to common expressions of ecclesial penance. Beyond that, in a world in many parts of which people are dying of hunger, we must again bear a visible and communal witness of an abstention from food, acceted freely, for love.”

 

[MarkThompson]

Yeah, I don’t think so. Read this:

realnews247.com/parishioners_cry_sacrilege.htm Unlike the parishioners there, however, I couldn’t care less if a bishop threatened me with excommunication for trying to save an altar. It’s a bogus threat anyway.

A man from a rural northwestern Ohio parish told me that his pastor asked to borrow a sledge hammer from a parishioner. Unbeknownst to the parishioner, the priest used the hammer to smash the communion rail to pieces and later burnt the wreckage behind the church. Even God can’t protect our churches from such arrogant priests.

Wasn’t that church being closed due to parish consolidations? Buried down toward the end of the article is the line:
Sister Mary Parks, spokeswoman for the diocese, defended the church consolidations. Although money will be saved by the church closings, that is not the main reason for consolidation, she said. “What will be saved is an enormous amount of duplication,”.
I can’t find any evidence that the parish exists today, and depending on the use the building was consigned to, it might have been completely appropriate not to leave the altar in place. In any event, the article does not strike me as a legitimate news piece, and I have a feeling that the “hard-hitting” intro, which blasts church officials by saying, “It is insisted that the 100 year old altars were ‘unnecessary duplications’,” is probably just a misunderstanding of the fact that the church itself was an unsupportable “duplication” given regional demographics, and due to be closed down.

It definitely sounds like this was not handled in a very good way, but before accusing priests of “sacrilege” it might help to learn if this was, you know, preparatory to closing down the church, and not just because the priest didn’t like icky old altars or something.

 

[Javl]

May I remind all to read the History of the Catholic Church, both secular and religious. You’ll find that there is a crisis within the Church just about every hundred years, and in almost every generation.

Jesus knew about this and predicted it. But the Church has survived and will survive because He is with it and is protecting His Church no matter how we, together with Satan, try to change and destroy it from without and within. Very few of us listen, or pay attention to Jesus or the Holy Spirit and tell them both that we know what we are doing ( do we? ).And of course we always screw up, but badly. And whether or not you believe it, or like it, Vatican II prove(d) it. Did we have to change the Church to fit in the world? By doing so we ignored and rejected Jesus’ words of being in the world but not part of it. You can argue all you want, but facts are facts and truth is truth, the world had to change and NOT the Church!. ( We seem to have the habit of fixng things that are not broken )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[pnewton]

pn, we’re not going back to computer punched cards or electonic tubes or mechanical levers in the voting booths.

Nobody said we were. The only analogy I know that was ever used was a fresco covered in whitewash and that going back would be whitewashing it again.

 

[pnewton]

Even as ugly as those altars are, I hope we never again see the viciousness with which priests of years past destroyed their parishioners’ beloved altars and statues.

What priest do you know of that destroyed any statues? This is the first I ever heard of this claim. If they did, I do not know of anyone here that would support such an action.

 

[pnewton]

In any event, the article does not strike me as a legitimate news piece, and I have a feeling that the “hard-hitting” intro, which blasts church officials by saying, “It is insisted that the 100 year old altars were ‘unnecessary duplications’,” is probably just a misunderstanding of the fact that the church itself was an unsupportable “duplication” given regional demographics, and due to be closed down.

Here is the motto of that “news” blog.

*We begin where Rush Limbaugh’s “Unstoppable Pursuit of Truth” – STOPS! *
*We Show You How to Detect the Spin in Bill O’Reilly’s “No Spin” Zone *

***The ONLY “on-point” Website for understanding what is happening to the USA, ***
its relation to the future of the world, AND what to do about it.

I looked at some other article titles. This place has more spin and bias than the DNC. Thus, since they denounce such bias, it is a model of hypocricy. I would stay away from any Kool-aid they serve.

 

[PhilipCal]

I really hesitated about replying in this thread. I’ll attempt to be brief. While Vatican II was still pretty much a work in progress, I wimped out and left the Church. Pretty wonderful feat for an active duty Marine. Oh, I never formerly declared that I was abandoning the Faith, and in many ways I never did.

Toward the end of a thirty eight law enforcement career, I reconciled with our Holy Church, and indeed, much had changed. The altar rail was gone, we had female altar servers, the Priest faced the congregation, and the Mass was in English. Took a bit of getting used to, but in God’s grace I managed it.

I’ve recently completed certification as a Catechist. That fact is noteworthy, if only in the fact, that Vatican II was the focus of much of my study. What follows, is simply my own take on what happened, my own personal “after action”, or just a bit of Monday Morning quarter backlng.

In the immediate aftermath of Vatican II, I think a whole lot of bishops, priests, religious,and laity, thought all the rules were off. It was a whole new sandbox for them
to play in, and play in it they did. This is where so many of the abuses, and change simply for the sake of change took place.

If the laity saw the bishops, priests, and religious acting in this fashion, after all they were (are) role models , it was only natural that they too would feel all the former rules no longer had any meaning.

Now to “fast forward” to the Church I have returned to. I think it’s a better Church. The Holy Spirit has had much to do with that. It is a Church which has in many ways re-discovered itself. It’s a Church in which the married state, the single state, are recognized as Vocations in their own right.

Vatican II for all of it’s innovations took the Church back to it’s early roots with the re-institution of RCIA, and the collegiality of the Bishops. It has initiated and maintains an ecumenical dialogue with other faith traditions, all the while maintaining the authority and supremacy of the Holy See.

Yet, there are still problems. Many within the Church, hold the view that Vatican II went entirely too far, while others, equally convinced, maintain that it didn’t go far enough,.

We are still experiencing a dearth in vocations, both to the Priesthood and to the Religious Life. We have the spectacle of so called Catholic politicians, who for their own political agenda’s ,espouse abortion and fail to defend life at the other end of the spectrum, all the while maintaining that their positions are in keeping with the teachings of the Church.

Still, each Sunday, I look forward to Mass and the Eucharist.(The source and summit of our spiritual life). I enter a church where the Crucifix is displayed over the alter. Where statues of the Holy Family, and Blessed Virgin are prominently displayed. The Stations of the Cross are where they’ve always been, as a reminder of of Our Lord’s Passion and Death.

Each Monday, in the company of my wife, I am privileged to spend my hour with Him in Perpetual Adoration… The Real Presence manifested beautifully, and as I always remembered it.

The late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen perhaps said it best. “The Laity must insist that Bishops act like Bishops, Priests act like Priests, and Religious act like Religious”. In my personal view, we 've gone a long way toward fulfilling Archbishop Sheen’s mandate, which really is reflective of Our Lord’s mandate.

Bottom line. Vatican II is a defining moment in the life of our Holy Church. It has brought much good into the way we practice our faith. It didn’t happen by accident.

 

[edwest2]

For those who know and understand that dissidents, not the Church hierarchy, took advantage of Vatican II to launch their own “reforms,” I suggest everyone have a look here:

harvestingthefruit.com/

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

The Catholic Church is beginning to see an increase in those entering seminaries and those becoming Catholic. This in the midst of a time where a very vocal group simply wants to see all religions abolished.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000750.htm

God bless,
Ed

 

[thealtonroute]

how sacrilegious to destroy years of work of the hands of those whom God blessed. still we see no repentence. no wonder the Church is going through so many crisis. that is our punishment. but to them there is no more punishment. if they had any love and reverence for God, they would never have done such a thing.

The priest who destroyed these altars later was accused of sexually abusing a prisoner at a prison where he was a chaplain. Do a google search. How these priests treated altars really goes to show how much they despise the faithful. We even have priests who won’t say the rosary at funerals. The Church is crumbling from the inside. A man from a town near Pittsburgh told me that his diocese was in such a hurry to demolish his old parish church that the bells were still in place in the towers when the wrecking ball brought them down. Parishioners stood by crying and praying the rosary. There are rays of hope in the Church but there also is so much darkness.

 

[Canto]

I do not like or believe in the image of priests “viciously” destroying statues representing the virgen or saints.I believe they disposed of them with respect, following the new instructions handed to them by Vatican.

And which Vatican instructions were these?

 

[BernadetteM]

My question stands though. For all of what people rail against “the spirit” of VII (and in many cases for good reasons), I wonder if people thought the same thing during the time of the Reformation. Seeing the corruption and heresies spread, it would be easy to place the blame on previous Councils and leaders within the Church.

What is also lost in all of this is Pope Paul VI has, without question, made some of the biggest impact on the Church as any Pope has. He reigned during a very difficult time and brought us three things;

• The conclusion of VII.
• The Ordinary Form (which will no longer be the “Novus Ordo” once the Anglican Use gets officially ratified, assuming it hasn’t already, because the AU will be the newer form).

{QUOTE} The Anglican Use Mass will not be the newer form. Yes it will be another use, but it will only be implemented in Anglican Use parishes. I suspect that there will be many Latin Rite Catholics who now attend the NO to come to the AU parishes. We don’t know yet how it will work as far as Latin Rite Catholics being allowed to register, but I do know of the established Anglican Use parishes that several have many Latin Rite Catholics who are members.

I know that there will be a new translation of the NO coming soon, but that will not stop the innovations we have today, unless the Church has strict rubics stating what can and cannot be done during the celebrating of the liturgy. It won’t bring back the altars and statues etc. From what I read many priests don’t want the new translation, but I suppose these are the same priests or Bishops who like it the way it is now.

Unless someone has experienced the beauty and reference of either the TLM or for many the Anglican Use they have no idea of the emotional affect it has on their hearts and souls. You can have a very spiritual and beautiful liturgy in English. Not all OF/NO Masses are without beauty and reverence I am lucky to attend one. I pray that along with the new English translation that some of this will return. Personally I have had deep spiritual experiences just watching the Anglican Use Mass and as a former Anglo Catholic know how it can affect you internally. I think this is what Catholics experience in the EF.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[HCC]

Melchior_;7025080:

My question stands though. For all of what people rail against “the spirit” of VII (and in many cases for good reasons), I wonder if people thought the same thing during the time of the Reformation. Seeing the corruption and heresies spread, it would be easy to place the blame on previous Councils and leaders within the Church.

What is also lost in all of this is Pope Paul VI has, without question, made some of the biggest impact on the Church as any Pope has. He reigned during a very difficult time and brought us three things;

• The conclusion of VII.
• The Ordinary Form (which will no longer be the “Novus Ordo” once the Anglican Use gets officially ratified, assuming it hasn’t already, because the AU will be the newer form).

{QUOTE} The Anglican Use Mass will not be the newer form. Yes it will be another use, but it will only be implemented in Anglican Use parishes. I suspect that there will be many Latin Rite Catholics who now attend the NO to come to the AU parishes. We don’t know yet how it will work as far as Latin Rite Catholics being allowed to register, but I do know of the established Anglican Use parishes that several have many Latin Rite Catholics who are members.

I know that there will be a new translation of the NO coming soon, but that will not stop the innovations we have today, unless the Church has strict rubics stating what can and cannot be done during the celebrating of the liturgy. It won’t bring back the altars and statues etc. From what I read many priests don’t want the new translation, but I suppose these are the same priests or Bishops who like it the way it is now.

Unless someone has experienced the beauty and reference of either the TLM or for many the Anglican Use they have no idea of the emotional affect it has on their hearts and souls. You can have a very spiritual and beautiful liturgy in English. Not all OF/NO Masses are without beauty and reverence I am lucky to attend one. I pray that along with the new English translation that some of this will return. Personally I have had deep spiritual experiences just watching the Anglican Use Mass and as a former Anglo Catholic know how it can affect you internally. I think this is what Catholics experience in the EF.

God Bless

Bernadette

Anglicans, even those a little more on the “low church” side, seem to get the liturgy right. The few I’ve snuck into were far more beautiful than a typical NO Mass in our Church. That said, even the worst of our liturgies makes Jesus present, body, blood, soul and divinity. I could feel that lacking at the Anglican mass. (CofE mass, not to be confused with Anglican Mass of The RC.)

 

[BernadetteM]

HCC,

I understand what you mean when you say something is lacking, but in my former Anglo Catholic parish I believe that the priest (one of the ones who went to Rome to establish the Anglican Use/Pastoral Provision) had probably been ordained by a Bishop with what they call the Dutch Touch. These are Bishops who still had apostolic succession, but were not in communion with Rome. Although the ordinations were valid so the sacraments were valid they were illicit.

I can only go by experiences I had at that parish and returning to see what had happened when many of us, including the priest became Catholic, infact he has a 6000 member parish not too far from me. When I visited my former parish I felt something was missing and knew that it was the True Body and Blood of Christ.

This feeling happened again at my Catholic parish when the Pastor removed the Hosts from the tabernacle before a speaker came for a lenten mission. We were not aware of this, but I sat there and wondered what was wrong, something seemed missing. Then Father got up in the back of the church and announced that he had removed the Hosts. My parish is very traditional and great reverence is given, even by small children to our Blessed Lord in the Eucharist.

It was the exact same feeling of loss. I know that Anglicans who are not interested in the Ordinariate and feel that their orders are valid will disagree with me. I do feel that there have been priests in the past who have been validly ordained, but it is such a mix, unless you can trace their ordinations back to the Bishop you can’t tell. Also since woman’s ordinations the intent is no longer there and at least in my opinion there can no longer be any valid ordinations.

All priests, except if Rome takes an individual case for some reason, all former Anglicans coming into the Church as priests will be ordained as Catholic priests. Of course this is a hugh problem for many to accept, but there are many who gladly submit to being ordained by a Catholic Bishop.

I feel for the Continuing Anglicans as there are so many different groups now and they can’t seem to unite as one. I have read some of their websites and many seem bitter, but more towards those Anglicans going to Rome than anger directed at other groups.

I see much more charity on the part of ones going into the Ordinariates towards their former brothers and sisters who choose to stay Anglicans. I think that is because they are at peace and don’t feel the need to convert Anglicans to become Catholic and only wish them well.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

At my grandparents parish in the late 80s, a new pastor buzzed in and immediately stated he intended to renovate. The parishioners, of all stripes, fought it loudly. The pastor brought in some examiners and they stated the altar had termites. Termites! Out of nowhere.

He then laid out his new plans which entailed taking out not only the high and side altars, but all of the statues and the stations as well. The parish said, “NO WAY!”

So he ripped out the altars and kept some of the statues and the stations and repainted the church in hideous mauve tones.

My grandfather, a convert and daily communicant, stated, “If they take out the altar, I’ll never step foot in that church again!” And he didn’t. He died during the reckovations and the funeral mass had to be said in the gymnasium.

Shortly after, it came out the pastor had lied and there had been no termites and that he had misappropriated parish funds to go to Europe for the World Cup. He was transfered to another parish and another church was made ugly.

The Ghost of Vatican II in action!

Really…the actions of a bad priest…that is the fruit of Vatican II? Seriously???