We Changed the Church and Regret It

[CradleCath]

rwoehmke;7060819:

Annabelle Marie;7059498:

Seriously…pizza and beer for a Eucharist? Never have I seen ANYTHING even remotely like this…not even in my childhood.

Maybe…I wasn’t born yet…

Anything recently? More recent then 40 some years ago?

Yes. And maybe…you should believe those who have seen it. We have no reason to lie about such a thing.

I have watched a cadre of women with scarves dance the “Dance of
the Great Flood” in the Sanctuary.

I have heard from the pulpit that I must pray for gay couples who adopt children, “as they are families, too.”

I have prayed the Novus Ordo Mass in a church with no kneelers & a power-point presentation, broadcast on a sheet that hung behind the “Table”. It was supposed to be the sermon.

When I finally found a parish that actually knelt for Communion, I was told by members of the laity where I attended Mass at the time,
"you mustn’t go to Mass THERE.
That priest is “pre-vatican II”…whatever that means. Actually, the priest was just a holy man who prayed a reverent Novus Ordo Mass. He lasted **8 months **in my city.

You are denying the experiences of a whole generation of people & the pain they have gone through. If you REALLY want to find the truth, attend some Traditional Latin Masses, ask the people why they’ve chosen this Mass & you will find answers that will surprise you.

 

[pnewton]

And an ex-priest told me about a “Mass” he attended in which 6 women “Priests” blessed Lorna Doone cookies along with Fig Newtons. He thought it was just “wonderful”. Part of the “Mass” consisted of a man dressed as a priest, being run out of Church by these 6 women. Do I believe that this happened often? No, but I think it happened more often than those here would like to admit.

The fact that it happened at all is frightening. The type of people that will do that, will not usually pray for God’s forgiveness because they think that what they did “was for the good of a Church that was backwards & in need of refom”. Therefore it’s up to the rest of us to make amends for the desecration of many Masses.

Can you imagine Christ looking upon these sacrileges. How disappointed He must have been. How ashamed of His Church.

Was this even part of the Catholic Church? There are many splinter groups that have broken off over women priests and homosexuality. They are no longer part of the body of Christ.

 

[pnewton]

Here are ten reasons not to be a Mason.
consecration.com/default.aspx?id=46

I noticed an earlier poster joshed about having his throat cut. I know that most masons see this as just a ritualistic formula that has no literal meaning. But what does it say that these people can make take such brutal oaths and then take them so lightly?

 

[CradleCath]

Was this even part of the Catholic Church? There are many splinter groups that have broken off over women priests and homosexuality. They are no longer part of the body of Christ.

The man who told me about the Mass with the women was once a Catholic priest of the Latin rite. That’s all I know. The other things that I mentioned, I saw for myself: the sermon on gay Families, the Liturgical Dance, the Power-point Sermon, etc. In these cases, the parishes were run, one by priests in an order…the other by diocesan priests.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Annabelle Marie;7061353:

rwoehmke;7060819:

Yes. And maybe…you should believe those who have seen it. We have no reason to lie about such a thing.

I have watched a cadre of women with scarves dance the “Dance of
the Great Flood” in the Sanctuary.

I have heard from the pulpit that I must pray for gay couples who adopt children, “as they are families, too.”

I have prayed the Novus Ordo Mass in a church with no kneelers & a power-point presentation, broadcast on a sheet that hung behind the “Table”. It was supposed to be the sermon.

When I finally found a parish that actually knelt for Communion, I was told by members of the laity where I attended Mass at the time,
"you mustn’t go to Mass THERE.
That priest is “pre-vatican II”…whatever that means. Actually, the priest was just a holy man who prayed a reverent Novus Ordo Mass. He lasted **8 months **

in my city.

You are denying the experiences of a whole generation of people & the pain they have gone through. If you REALLY want to find the truth, attend some Traditional Latin Masses, ask the people why they’ve chosen this Mass & you will find answers that will surprise you.

I’m not denying that wasn’t the case…it was a little tongue in cheek. Bottom line…those were not valid Eucharists…nor have they EVER been valid. Vatican II did not make them valid…so I’m confused why it gets the blame? Or why the NO gets the blame? If someone tried to give me a Lorna Doone for the Eucharist I would run from there and be calling my Bishop immediately!

You don’t think the world in general has changed? That things that used to be immoral people now consider “moral”? In general.

I’m not so sure I want the “Truth”…well lets put it this way…after some experiences here with the people who so love the EF that they feel a need to put down the NO…well after seeing their lack of charity…I’m not sure that I want to put my faith in danger like that…after all I am a newbie back to the Church…after being greatly wounded by people in the Church (relatives). I have a great parish…where the priest is gentle, kind but speaks about disciplin, sacrafice, humility, Church teachings in general. I have found great faith there…so much so that my husband is converting after being a life long Protestant.

You don’t think it’s painful to hear you all rip on the NO? This is where I have found God. Holy Mother church has said it’s valid. To hear it ran down in such a way…

PS–I’m confused…shouldn’t we always pray for gay couples who adopt children…as we would pray for them in general? That they find the truth and turn from sin?? Is this not so?? What should we do if NOT pray for them??

 

[Javl]

Annabelle:

The NO mass IS a licit mass, no one denies that. But the abuses that have occured and do occur in its celebration is what makes we “traditionalists” cringe and pray for the return of the EF Mass.

Abuses such as consecrating leavened bread and soda or grape juice for the Eucharist in violation of the Liturgical Canon Law. Distribution of the Eucharist during mass by lay ministers while the celebrating priest sits on the side. Again, a violation of the Liturgical Canon Law. A “sermon” by a lay minister. Another violation of the Canon Law. These are only a few that I have witnessed and not only in one Church or parish. I am sure there are many others.

At this rate, there may be another schism within the Church ( I pray God forbid that ) or many of “Latinists” may leave and join an Eastern Rite Church. I am seriously thinking about that, just to return to the piety and spirituality that should be very evident during any Mass, and seems to be sorely missing in an NO Mass.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I guess my question is this…and mind you I don’t have an answer. I thought about putting this out on a thread.

Let’s assume that the NO Mass is no longer allowed. That the Church only has the EF. Now…would there be abuses in the EF? Because those priest that do it in the NO would now be doing the EF? Would some of there reverence be lost because now those people who go to the NO in, maybe not there Sunday best, be now attending the EF? Or those Catholics that are not fully in communion with the Church…would they now be going to the EF? Or would they leave the Church altogether? Is that what we want?

Because I don’t think we can go back altogether…its a very different world now then it was back then. Sacrifice, duty, honor…those all meant something back in the day. I attend NO Mass when I was a kid…but by goodness you had better keep quiet or else! If my Dad took me out of the church…there were no witnesses But people don’t parent like that now…people don’t parent period…some of them. We want everything fast and now. And I don’t know how you keep that totally out of the Church…and how do you balance all that with the first step of spreading the Gospel?

PS…What would you say if I said I saw liturgical banners being held up by brightly colored balloons in a church?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I guess my question is this…and mind you I don’t have an answer. I thought about putting this out on a thread.

Let’s assume that the NO Mass is no longer allowed. That the Church only has the EF. Now…would there be abuses in the EF? Because those priest that do it in the NO would now be doing the EF? Would some of there reverence be lost because now those people who go to the NO in, maybe not there Sunday best, be now attending the EF? Or those Catholics that are not fully in communion with the Church…would they now be going to the EF? Or would they leave the Church altogether? Is that what we want?

Because I don’t think we can go back altogether…its a very different world now then it was back then. Sacrifice, duty, honor…those all meant something back in the day. I attend NO Mass when I was a kid…but by goodness you had better keep quiet or else! If my Dad took me out of the church…there were no witnesses But people don’t parent like that now…people don’t parent period…some of them. We want everything fast and now. And I don’t know how you keep that totally out of the Church…and how do you balance all that with the first step of spreading the Gospel?

PS…What would you say if I said I saw liturgical banners being held up by brightly colored balloons in a church?

Yes, a lot of people today are mistaken that the EF is some sort of magic bullet that will rid the world of irreverence and Mass abuses. The EF enjoys such reverence today because its only the truly devoted who seek out the EF. The lukewarm Catholics stay away. Why go to a Mass in Latin when you can go to one in the vernacular? But if the TLM is the OF, then the same abusive priests and the same disruptive people who go to the Pauline Masses today will be at the TLM Masses and you’ll have the same problem you are having today.

 

[Adeodatus]

I guess my question is this…and mind you I don’t have an answer. I thought about putting this out on a thread.

Let’s assume that the NO Mass is no longer allowed. That the Church only has the EF. Now…would there be abuses in the EF? Because those priest that do it in the NO would now be doing the EF? Would some of there reverence be lost because now those people who go to the NO in, maybe not there Sunday best, be now attending the EF? Or those Catholics that are not fully in communion with the Church…would they now be going to the EF? Or would they leave the Church altogether? Is that what we want?

I think this is a good and fair question. In my opinion, the answer is that many of the abuses would be curbed. The poster above says that the EF is not a “magic bullet”. But I’m not sure that he and I see the Mass in the same way. It does have great graces and blessings. If the Tabernacle is centered in the church and not off in some side room, and the priest says the Mass facing the True Presence of our Lord… that’s powerful and holy! It’s amazing and beautiful. And to say the Mass according to the rigorous and refined rubrics, so safeguarded from tampering. There is no “culture of tampering” there. Only a culture of reverence and humility in worship.

Yes… I think the EF has the power to change hearts and minds. Are the hearts and minds of modern society far from the holy realities of the EF? Yes… and that is why they need it all the more. The EF contains no hint of appeasement or compromise with the unChristian world. It is serene and beautiful and holy and reverent.

What I would say to the innovators is that you don’t change the Mass; the Mass changes you. That’s how I see the EF. The very fact that it flies in the face of what our pagan and unholy culture teaches is one of the things that’s so great about it.

You say maybe you won’t go to the EF because you don’t like the attitudes of some of us, or that perhaps it’s impossible to go back to how the Church used to be. The other poster says the Mass is not a “magic bullet”. I see the Mass differently. The Mass is not some adjunct to our lives that we take or leave, it’s not a piece in a political or social or cultural game. It’s part of the center of our lives as Catholics.

My words cannot do the holy blessing of the TLM justice. You have to experience it. But the beauty is not found in the choir, or the organist, or the Latin language. It’s a beauty that would be there even if the choir is lame, the organist is a beginner and the priest is barely intelligible due to a rhetorical deficiency. The EF can be accompanied by great aesthetic beauty, but the essence of its beauty is not something aesthetical.

If I may say so, the virtue of Religion is placed by St. Thomas under the broader virtue of Justice. Perhaps that’s the true essence of the EF’s beauty: it is the beauty of rectitude in worship.

 

[Layman]

The TLM offers less room for manouevre for people who want to stamp their personality on the Mass. The priest is facing away from the congregation for most of it and they in turn are not obliged to outwardly participate very much.

Result: you can inwardly participate as much or as little as you want, without being distracted. It’s peaceful.

 

[Indyann]

The TLM offers less room for manouevre for people who want to stamp their personality on the Mass. The priest is facing away from the congregation for most of it and they in turn are not obliged to outwardly participate very much.

Result: you can inwardly participate as much or as little as you want, without being distracted. It’s peaceful.

Or you could have the whole week’s grocery list memorized, all the time appearing as a most pious, holy soul.

Just sayin’.

 

[ProVobis]

Why go to a Mass in Latin when you can go to one in the vernacular?

For one thing, it will remove the incentive to adlib since many fewer people will notice it. And another that it doesn’t favor any particular culture. But should it make that much of a difference, since people who follow the TLM look to the rubrics, signs of crosses, bows of the head, kissing of the altar, etc, in other words, more understandable to all movements which will enable them to pray along? Don’t forget most of the TLM text is not heard by most in the congregation. At High Masses, they hear more of the choir than the priest. Some see that as one of its beauties.

But if the TLM is the OF, then the same abusive priests and the same disruptive people who go to the Pauline Masses today will be at the TLM Masses and you’ll have the same problem you are having today.

If it’s forced on them, I might agree with you there.

 

[Layman]

Or you could have the whole week’s grocery list memorized, all the time appearing as a most pious, holy soul.

Just sayin’.

That’s right. You can participate inwardly as much or as little as you want. There’s less distraction. It’s up to you. Those who are not there to pray at least won’t be distracting others; they can’t, in the TLM format.

The idea that if you give people more to do outwardly, that that means they are praying in a more concentrated manner, is flawed. It just makes for noisier, busier, more populist Masses.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

That’s right. You can participate inwardly as much or as little as you want. There’s less distraction. It’s up to you. Those who are not there to pray at least won’t be distracting others; they can’t, in the TLM format.

The idea that if you give people more to do outwardly, that that means they are praying in a more concentrated manner, is flawed. It just makes for noisier, busier, more populist Masses.

So I can’t bring my IPhone into Mass and write that grocery list out?

 

[ConstantineTG]

For one thing, it will remove the incentive to adlib since many fewer people will notice it. And another that it doesn’t favor any particular culture. But should it make that much of a difference, since people who follow the TLM look to the rubrics, signs of crosses, bows of the head, kissing of the altar, etc, in other words, more understandable to all movements which will enable them to pray along? Don’t forget most of the TLM text is not heard by most in the congregation. At High Masses, they hear more of the choir than the priest. Some see that as one of its beauties.

On the other hand, priests ad libing in Latin will not be caught by people who wouldn’t know the difference.

If it’s forced on them, I might agree with you there.

Well, we can’t deny there are those who go to Mass out of habit or because someone from their family drags them to Mass. I don’t see how the form of Mass will change their behavior. And on the other hand, lets not forget the multitude of reverent people who do attend the OF Mass.

 

[Javl]

I guess my question is this…and mind you I don’t have an answer. I thought about putting this out on a thread.

Let’s assume that the NO Mass is no longer allowed. That the Church only has the EF. Now…would there be abuses in the EF? Because those priest that do it in the NO would now be doing the EF? Would some of there reverence be lost because now those people who go to the NO in, maybe not there Sunday best, be now attending the EF? Or those Catholics that are not fully in communion with the Church…would they now be going to the EF? Or would they leave the Church altogether? Is that what we want?

Because I don’t think we can go back altogether…its a very different world now then it was back then. Sacrifice, duty, honor…those all meant something back in the day. I attend NO Mass when I was a kid…but by goodness you had better keep quiet or else! If my Dad took me out of the church…there were no witnesses But people don’t parent like that now…people don’t parent period…some of them. We want everything fast and now. And I don’t know how you keep that totally out of the Church…and how do you balance all that with the first step of spreading the Gospel?

PS…What would you say if I said I saw liturgical banners being held up by brightly colored balloons in a church?

I have no definite answer. I can only speculate as to what would happen and speculation means nothing. The only answer can be obtained by actuality, that is replace the OF completely.

I do remember when the NO was first introduced. It did create a bit of confusion and stumbling but it finally took hold. It was no “breath of fresh air”, but the laity did accept it. There was piety and spirituality in the celebration of the NO, a carry over from the EF. But the change came with an explosion when priests and nuns started with their “versions” of what the OF should be and how it should be celebrated. Priests started wearing garish multi-color vestaments, rock bands started playing “hymns” to a rock and roll tempo and the nuns discarded their habits for pullovers and jeans and perform ( in my eyes ) suggestive dances during the mass, and then feminism took over. The rest is history.

And yes, I’ve seen party balloons in use in an NO mass. Have you seen a priest step aside after the Eucharistic consecration and allow Wicans to perform their rituals during an NO mass? I have.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ProVobis]

On the other hand, priests ad libing in Latin will not be caught by people who wouldn’t know the difference.

He’d have to be an above-average Latinist for that to happen then, no?

Chances are that one of the well-trained servers would pick up on it, though. Don’t forget, servers are trained to pick up on certain words and gestures by the priest so if he were to adlib that would throw them off.

But in either the OF or EF the priest has to have the intention of saying the Mass and consecrating the Host. We’ll just have to presume when we attend a scheduled Mass that the priest has this intention.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I
And yes, I’ve seen party balloons in use in an NO mass. Have you seen a priest step aside after the Eucharistic consecration and allow Wicans to perform their rituals during an NO mass? I have.

Ah…but this was in Rome…

But no I haven’t seen anything remotely like that in any of the NO Masses I’ve attended.

 

[pnewton]

Ah…but this was in Rome…

But no I haven’t seen anything remotely like that in any of the NO Masses I’ve attended.

If this is about that video with balloons in Rome, it wasn’t even a Mass. It was some sort of concert or prayer service. But perhaps Javl was referring to a Mass he attended in person?

 

[ConstantineTG]

He’d have to be an above-average Latinist for that to happen then, no?

Either that or what I meant was he’ll make up words.

Chances are that one of the well-trained servers would pick up on it, though. Don’t forget, servers are trained to pick up on certain words and gestures by the priest so if he were to adlib that would throw them off.

But in either the OF or EF the priest has to have the intention of saying the Mass and consecrating the Host. We’ll just have to presume when we attend a scheduled Mass that the priest has this intention.

Thats what always expect when I enter a church.