We Changed the Church and Regret It

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I think a priest, saying the TLM, who decides to ad-lib, when no one can hear him, and in a language not his own, has a serious problem. And by that I mean a diabolic one.

A priest who ad-libs the N.O., I’m sorry to say, wouldn’t be that unusual. There seems to be an attitude, post 1970, that you can do that. He’s also performing to the congregation; that must be pressurised. Your mind can go blank in those situations. Also, ad-libbing in English, for a native speaker, can occur naturally, if you get flustered. It’s your mother tongue!
 
If this is about that video with balloons in Rome, it wasn’t even a Mass. It was some sort of concert or prayer service. But perhaps Javl was referring to a Mass he attended in person?
No–this was in a congregation? put on by the vatican for the year of the priests. I saw it in pictures.
 
The TLM offers less room for manouevre for people who want to stamp their personality on the Mass. The priest is facing away from the congregation for most of it and they in turn are not obliged to outwardly participate very much.

Result: you can inwardly participate as much or as little as you want, without being distracted. It’s peaceful.
That is the beauty of the EF.
 
Yes, a lot of people today are mistaken that the EF is some sort of magic bullet that will rid the world of irreverence and Mass abuses. The EF enjoys such reverence today because its only the truly devoted who seek out the EF. The lukewarm Catholics stay away. Why go to a Mass in Latin when you can go to one in the vernacular? But if the TLM is the OF, then the same abusive priests and the same disruptive people who go to the Pauline Masses today will be at the TLM Masses and you’ll have the same problem you are having today.
That is true. I’d rather not see the OF abrogated. I’d hate to think a dissident priest was forced to pray the EF. Also, it’s not right to jerk a Mass that is the only one some have ever known out from under them as did happen with the new Mass.
 
Unfortunately we have lived through forty years of liturgical chaos. Many souls will not spend their eternity in a place of comfort, light and peace as a result. Thankfully, the winds of change are reversing their direction. PAIX LITURGIQUE conducts surveys among Catholics on the subject of the two forms of the Latin rite. Here is the most recent conducted in Great Britain ahead of Pope Benedict XVI state visit there.

"Here are this survey’s results. It was conducted on line, 21-28 June 2010, by Harris Interactive. There were 800 British Catholic participants, from a sampling of 6153 persons over the age of 18.

Question #1: Do you attend Mass?
Weekly: 24.3%
Monthly: 7.8%
On Holy Days: 10.1%
Occasionally (e.g. for weddings): 45.6%
Never: 12.3%

Question #2: In July [2007] Pope Benedict XVI restated that the Mass could be celebrated both in its modern, “ordinary,” or “Paul VI” form–i.e. in English, with the priest facing the faithful, communion received standing–and in its traditional, “extraordinary,” or “John XXIII” form–i.e. in Latin and Gregorian chant, with the priest turned towards the altar, communion received kneeling. Were you aware of this?
Yes: 39.4%
No: 60.6%

Question #3 : Would you consider it normal or abnormal for both liturgical forms to be celebrated regularly in YOUR parish?
Normal: 44.9%
Abnormal : 21%
No opinion: 34.1%

Question #4: If Mass were celebrated with Latin and Gregorian chant in its extraordinary form in YOUR parish, without taking the place of the ordinary one in English, would you attend it?
The following answers are from all Catholics polled:
  • 15.6% would attend every week
  • 10.8% once a month
  • 11.1% for Holy Days
  • 46.1% occasionally
  • 16.4% never
    Answers from those regularly practicing (weekly and monthy) alone:
  • 43% would attend every week
  • 23.4% once a month
  • 7.8% for Holy Days
  • 17.6% occasionally
  • 8.2% never"
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/09/paix-liturgique-survey-gentle-winds-for.html

As Father Zulhsdorf says, Save the Liturgy, Save the World. We should pray daily for the resurgence of the Mass of Ages for the glory of God and the salvation of souls.
 
Ready for a major heresy?
Code:
 Okay. I've been reading many of these postings, though I missed some. Anyway, here is the opinion of someone who worries that the church is too often stuck in an earlier period of history.

 A little intro. I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant background, with devout and good and sincere people on both sides. I have read widely in the field of religion, including such church fathers as Justin Martyr, Anselm, Jerome, Cyprian, Clement and Augustine as well as mild heretics like OrIgen and Tertullian. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas. I read Catholic periodicals regularly, watch EWTN, etc. 

So, what have I concluded after all this? Many devoted (and fine) Catholics here on CAF need to demonstrate a little more tolerance and flexibility. There are millions of Catholics with differing views, produced in large part by our democratic society, advanced education, and inquiring minds. They don't feel required to believe everything that our ancestors believed.

  Now we have superb telescopes and know that there may be a million solar systems out there, and we have modern medicine which discovered that diseases are caused by germs and not by demons or our sin. The church fathers did not have such instruments and their works often are flawed because of that. So, intelligent people can't and should not feel required to accept the idea that tradition is sacrosanct, that we have to accept the judgment of St. Paul that women should obey their husbands or that of St Timothy who wrote that women should never exercise authority over men, etc. These sorts of admonition come from a strongly patriarchal society and should not be taken literally today. There are many things, yes, even in scripture, that are totally irrelevant today. Read Ex. 21, Lev. 20, and/or Deut. 22-23 for some examples 

 The same when it comes to liturgy. There are those who love the Tridentine Mass with its Latin, its many smells and bells, its music from an earlier era, its emphasis on a medieval aura, its ornate statues and such. Fine. I, for one, would be totally alienated if the church were to revert to such practices. This emphasis upon the necessity of a precise liturgy is, in my mind, a form of liturgical legalism, no better than others forms of religious legalism. I even find it prissy and am turned off by too much attention paid to ritualistic detail by those priests who can seem more concerned about ritual propriety than about righteous living. The church has suffered from too many of them. One priest in this area who was noted for his focus on liturgical piety and perfection was caught for - well, you can guess. 

 Jesus was disturbed by the narrowness of Judaism and he boldly defied tradition in many ways, whether eating with sinners or 'breaking' the Sabbath or associating with Samaritans. I can't believe that he would give a hoot about the minutiae of mass. He would ask, as he did. "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say!?"

 Could go on but you get my drift. And by the way, one of the Catholic churches in town has the risen Christ above the altar rather than the crucified Christ. Personally, I think the former is a far better representative the central message of Christianity - victory over defeat, good over evil, positive over negative, hope over despair, etc. We are an Easter people and should cry aloud:  HE IS RISEN!  

  God bless the whole world with joy, harmony, peace, and love, and may he forgive us our pettiness.
 
The same when it comes to liturgy. There are those who love the Tridentine Mass with its Latin, its many smells and bells, its music from an earlier era, its emphasis on a medieval aura, its ornate statues and such. Fine. I, for one, would be totally alienated if the church were to revert to such practices. This emphasis upon the necessity of a precise liturgy is, in my mind, a form of liturgical legalism, no better than others forms of religious legalism. **I even find it prissy **and am turned off by too much attention paid to ritualistic detail by those priests who can seem more concerned about ritual propriety than about righteous living. The church has suffered from too many of them. One priest in this area who was noted for his focus on liturgical piety and perfection was caught for - well, you can guess.

…]
God bless the whole world with joy, harmony, peace, and love, and may he forgive us our pettiness.
The emphasis in the EF is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, a re-presentation of Calvary. It’s sad you feel devotion to the rubics of this liturgy is prissy or petty. It’s offensive you think adherence to rubics leads to pedophilia.
 
The emphasis in the EF is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, a re-presentation of Calvary. It’s sad you feel devotion to the rubics of this liturgy is prissy or petty. It’s offensive you think adherence to rubics leads to pedophilia.
In all fairness I don’t think that is what Roy5 was saying. He did say he finds it prissy…I do to. Am I glad that there are 2 forms…yes. I don’t want to see the EF go away because I know that there are those that love it. But it also pains me to see people tear down the OF…which is also the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I don’t want to see it go away either.

I don’t think he said that adherence to rubics leads to pedophilia…I think he was saying that just becuase a priest celebrates the TLM…it doesn’t mean he doesn’t sin or have abuses. So many people here concentrate on all the “abuses” that they see in the OF. Sometimes I wonder if they just sit there looking for any variance…so are they not participating in the Mass?
 
Ockham
Code:
I apologize if I seemed to link emphasis on perfection in ritual to pedophilia. That was not my intention. But I do feel that extraordinary emphasis upon the minutiae in ritual misses the main point. God wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth, and I suggest that he looks at our hearts and not ar precision in our liturgy. Liturgical legalism is what was demanded by the religious leadership at the time of Jesus and he scolded them for placing emphasis upon the wrong thing.

While I cannot claim to know lots of priests, the ones I have found the most effective have been less rigid liturgically, more interested in people and in genuine devotion rather than upon a 'perfect' mass. 

 It did cause me to wonder, though, when a priest in this area who was most noted for his strict adherence to every 'jot and tittle' of the liturgy was the one to bring such scandal. I've even wondered (though I certainly haven't concluded) if the ritual and pageantry and vestments and other aspects of the mass have a special appeal to gays. And I've wondered, too, if gays also have been attracted to the priesthood because they don't have to explain why they remain single, hope that being a priest will help them conquer any sexual temptation, and/or serve in what amounts to an all-male fraternity. In addition, understandably many likely would like a rewarding and giving life's work where they can gain respect, which has not been true (until recent years, at least) in the rest of society. And, by the way, I have no problem with the ordination of gays who remain celibate. Sadly, most scandal has come from those who may have intended to- but failed, tragically.
 
In all fairness I don’t think that is what Roy5 was saying. He did say he finds it prissy…I do to. Am I glad that there are 2 forms…yes. I don’t want to see the EF go away because I know that there are those that love it. But it also pains me to see people tear down the OF…which is also the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I don’t want to see it go away either.

I don’t think he said that adherence to rubics leads to pedophilia…I think he was saying that just becuase a priest celebrates the TLM…it doesn’t mean he doesn’t sin or have abuses. So many people here concentrate on all the “abuses” that they see in the OF. Sometimes I wonder if they just sit there looking for any variance…so are they not participating in the Mass?
Then you misread what he said.

Catholics have a right to a proper liturgy. Priest are supposed to say the Mass the way it’s written. In my experience priest sermons in the TLM talk about sin whereas the Novus Ordo sermons avoid it. I’ve yet to see a TLM done with balloons or clowns. Perhaps people prefer the TLM because it isn’t as prone to abuse and features more Catholic dogma which helps get us to heaven.

I’ve read this thread and don’t understand your motivation for posting in it.
 
I’ve even wondered (though I certainly haven’t concluded) if the ritual and pageantry and vestments and other aspects of the mass have a special appeal to gays.
So now priests who follow the rubics are likely to be gay?

In case you’ve missed it, the Church is trying to correct the liturgical liberalism of the past forty years. The Pope and high ranking clergy are trying to get the Church back in line. The philosophy that the liturgy is a personal toy is a hallmark of the misinterpreted 'spirit of Vatican 2" and thankfully dying out.
 
I apologize if I seemed to link emphasis on perfection in ritual to pedophilia. That was not my intention. But I do feel that extraordinary emphasis upon the minutiae in ritual misses the main point.
I might ask, then, what the purpose of the following sentence was if not to reinforce your misguided view.
I’ve even wondered (though I certainly haven’t concluded) if the ritual and pageantry and vestments and other aspects of the mass have a special appeal to gays. And I’ve wondered, too, if gays also have been attracted to the priesthood because they don’t have to explain why they remain single, hope that being a priest will help them conquer any sexual temptation, and/or serve in what amounts to an all-male fraternity.
Whatever the purpose, it’s absolute rubbish. Pure and simple.
While I cannot claim to know lots of priests, the ones I have found the most effective have been less rigid liturgically, more interested in people and in genuine devotion rather than upon a ‘perfect’ mass.
Well, I can claim to know “lots of priests” and my experience has been exactly the opposite of the above.
In addition, understandably many likely would like a rewarding and giving life’s work where they can gain respect, which has not been true (until recent years, at least) in the rest of society. And, by the way, I have no problem with the ordination of gays who remain celibate. Sadly, most scandal has come from those who may have intended to- but failed, tragically.
The “scandal” of which you speak is pedophilia, and the actual number of clergy involved is very small. And BTW, if you think underage females have not been affected as well, you are quite mistaken.
 
Then you misread what he said.

Catholics have a right to a proper liturgy. Priest are supposed to say the Mass the way it’s written. In my experience priest sermons in the TLM talk about sin whereas the Novus Ordo sermons avoid it. I’ve yet to see a TLM done with balloons or clowns. Perhaps people prefer the TLM because it isn’t as prone to abuse and features more Catholic dogma which helps get us to heaven.

I’ve read this thread and don’t understand your motivation for posting in it.
With all due respect…you don’t have to understand my motivation. What…I’m not allowed to post here or have a point of view:confused::confused: I don’t understand your motivation either…

I come here to try and understand those that like the TLM…but also to break us all out of our “comfort” zone…thinking we have it all down and are the Holiest. There seems to be a lot of put downs about the NO…what is the REAL motivation in it? Is it always the puriest?? I don’t actually think so.

Maybe you haven’t listened hard enough…or maybe we are on different planets because attending the NO…most of all that I hear has to do with sin…and about reconciliation as well.

God is justice…right…but he is also a God of Love.

I left the Catholic church because all I heard was people (including my relatives) talk about form and this and that but were missing so many other points. And all I heard was the God of Justice.

I went to the Protestant church for the God who is love and mercy.

In reality…God is both. That is what I find at the NO. It has a beauty that I love! I have never seen ballons or clowns there. It draws me there…daily. (See…notice how I can say that without pitting the other form against it).

There are people that don’t want the EF to disappear and would like it to be more available. There are other people (a lot of them) who don’t want the NO to disappear. Can we not try to work together in charity? Excuse me but why everyone here is fighting…there is a world that is going to Hell.
 
I think a priest, saying the TLM, who decides to ad-lib, when no one can hear him, and in a language not his own, has a serious problem. And by that I mean a diabolic one.
It could be a purely innocent mistake. But isn’t it crucial during the Consecration?
A priest who ad-libs the N.O., I’m sorry to say, wouldn’t be that unusual. There seems to be an attitude, post 1970, that you can do that. He’s also performing to the congregation; that must be pressurised. Your mind can go blank in those situations. Also, ad-libbing in English, for a native speaker, can occur naturally, if you get flustered. It’s your mother tongue!
Like I said earlier, I think I shouldn’t have used ad lib to describe what I intended to mean. Speaking in a different language the problem is not you’re actually improvising on the words, but you might be substituting a real word with a non-word. Also, some of the problems comes from familiarity. A priest saying Mass in the vernacular may inadvertently say a word that would have a close meaning to the actual word that should be used. In a foreign language, the problem is that repetition may make you confident in using the words that you mispronounce the word and either make up a non-word or say an entirely different word with an entirely different meaning, even though it may be just a vowel mispronounced or one consonant unintentionally left out.
 
That is true. I’d rather not see the OF abrogated. I’d hate to think a dissident priest was forced to pray the EF. Also, it’s not right to jerk a Mass that is the only one some have ever known out from under them as did happen with the new Mass.
At the very least, I’d clamour for the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. I know a lot of people here will defend the use of Latin, but for the same reason you stated a lot of people will find Latin as a stumbling block because they grew up with a vernacular Mass. No matter what the reasons Traditionalists would have in favor for Latin, some or all off those reasons does not apply to other people.
 
I come here to try and understand those that like the TLM…but also to break us all out of our “comfort” zone…thinking we have it all down and are the Holiest. There seems to be a lot of put downs about the NO…what is the REAL motivation in it? Is it always the puriest?? I don’t actually think so.
People that prefer one form over the other will normally have their reasons. Many people I know who prefer the EF seek a higher degree of reverence in a liturgy less prone to customization and abuse.
IMaybe you haven’t listened hard enough…or maybe we are on different planets because attending the NO…most of all that I hear has to do with sin…and about reconciliation as well.
Then count your blessings. If you pay attention you’ll see that isn’t the usual case.
I left the Catholic church because all I heard was people (including my relatives) talk about form and this and that but were missing so many other points. And all I heard was the God of Justice.

I went to the Protestant church for the God who is love and mercy.
We wouldn’t want you to leave the Church again. If that’s the reason you left last time perhaps avoiding discussions on the two forms would be wise.
There are people that don’t want the EF to disappear and would like it to be more available. There are other people (a lot of them) who don’t want the NO to disappear. Can we not try to work together in charity? Excuse me but why everyone here is fighting…there is a world that is going to Hell.
There are also people who do want the EF to disappear. If your motivations are pure then perhaps out of charity you could help get the EF back to regular offering in every parish. By the above survey I posted, nearly half of those who actually attend Mass on Sunday would attend.
 
We wouldn’t want you to leave the Church again. If that’s the reason you left last time perhaps avoiding discussions on the two forms would be wise.

I should clarify…not so much about the EF/OF…about details here and there…but would miss the big picture…like maybe teaching your child/grandchild about confession? I received for 2 years without knowing any of that. Or why we did certain things…or loving your neighbor. My relatives grew up with pre Vatican…and I am finding that they know VERY little about their faith. So I just don’t see where that was a big factor for them in staying reverent. I won’t leave my faith now…I just have to get confirmed. Well and help my husband to convert:thumbsup:. I just don’t want anyone else to have the same issues and leave the faith. I attend 2 different parishes…one for Sunday and one for daily Mass (closer to work) and I have not found anything out of the ordinary…and have heard a lot about sin

There are also people who do want the EF to disappear. If your motivations are pure then perhaps out of charity you could help get the EF back to regular offering in every parish. By the above survey I posted, nearly half of those who actually attend Mass on Sunday would attend. I don’t want the EF to disappear…that would hurt those as much as the thought to me of the NO disappearing. Unfortunetly…in my Sunday parish…there is only one priest…and he has to get a dispensation to do 3 Masses because some of them are standing room only…and three other parishes in town only have 1 priest. My daily parish…well they have more priests but multiple language Masses. But I am not a member there to make any changes. There are women there that veil and we all coexist wonderfully. Once a month they have a NO Mass in Latin.
 
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Annabelle_Marie:
Dear Annabelle Marie,

When we get to the point where we’re discouraged and so upset over what we see as irreconcilable positions, old battles that will never end, scandals, conspiracies, it is time to take a step back and just live our faith very simply.

I myself suffered tremendously with bad liturgy, scandals of specific priests I knew and trusted and looked up to, the Church’s handling of those scandals, conspiracies about certain new religious groups in the Church, Vatican bank scandals, etc… I was at a point where I was completely numb and wondered why I bothered.

However, through grace and prayer–not thinking it through, just completely trusting in the goodness of Our Lord, I survived all that. Sometimes you have to stop reading and arguing and just live your faith.

We should all be striving to live the Golden Mean:

In philosophy, especially that of Aristotle, the golden mean is the desirable middle between two extremes, one of excess and the other of deficiency. For example courage, a virtue, if taken to excess would manifest as recklessness and if deficient as cowardice.

Or the favorite slogan of a good old priest I was close to, may he rest in peace:

Keep your feat grounded on God’s green Earth, tell the devil to go to Hell and keep walking toward Heaven.

In other words, lay all of these arguments down, stop worrying about people who don’t agree with you, do your daily duty, hold closely to the teachings of the Church, partake of the sacraments frequently and look toward Heaven.
 
Dear Annabelle Marie,

When we get to the point where we’re discouraged and so upset over what we see as irreconcilable positions, old battles that will never end, scandals, conspiracies, it is time to take a step back and just live our faith very simply.
Let me add one more thing that helps me when I get too bent out on this subject. I pray for the needs of the ones who want what I do not. In other words, if you are so mad about abuses OF and you are attached the TLM, then pray for all those who do not attend or desire the TLM that they will see God in a proper OF liturgy and receive the Grace through the Blessed Sacrament. If you are drawn into a bash of the EF through whatever reason, then pray for the promulgation of the EF throughout the world so that all who desire it can find it readily available.

That’s what we are supposed to do after all, desire the good of others more that we desire our own good.
 
Ready for a major heresy?
Code:
 Okay. I've been reading many of these postings, though I missed some. Anyway, here is the opinion of someone who worries that the church is too often stuck in an earlier period of history.

 A little intro. I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant background, with devout and good and sincere people on both sides. I have read widely in the field of religion, including such church fathers as Justin Martyr, Anselm, Jerome, Cyprian, Clement and Augustine as well as mild heretics like OrIgen and Tertullian. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas. I read Catholic periodicals regularly, watch EWTN, etc. 

So, what have I concluded after all this? Many devoted (and fine) Catholics here on CAF need to demonstrate a little more tolerance and flexibility. There are millions of Catholics with differing views, produced in large part by our democratic society, advanced education, and inquiring minds. They don't feel required to believe everything that our ancestors believed.

  Now we have superb telescopes and know that there may be a million solar systems out there, and we have modern medicine which discovered that diseases are caused by germs and not by demons or our sin. The church fathers did not have such instruments and their works often are flawed because of that. So, intelligent people can't and should not feel required to accept the idea that tradition is sacrosanct, that we have to accept the judgment of St. Paul that women should obey their husbands or that of St Timothy who wrote that women should never exercise authority over men, etc. These sorts of admonition come from a strongly patriarchal society and should not be taken literally today. There are many things, yes, even in scripture, that are totally irrelevant today. Read Ex. 21, Lev. 20, and/or Deut. 22-23 for some examples 

 The same when it comes to liturgy. There are those who love the Tridentine Mass with its Latin, its many smells and bells, its music from an earlier era, its emphasis on a medieval aura, its ornate statues and such. Fine. I, for one, would be totally alienated if the church were to revert to such practices. This emphasis upon the necessity of a precise liturgy is, in my mind, a form of liturgical legalism, no better than others forms of religious legalism. I even find it prissy and am turned off by too much attention paid to ritualistic detail by those priests who can seem more concerned about ritual propriety than about righteous living. The church has suffered from too many of them. One priest in this area who was noted for his focus on liturgical piety and perfection was caught for - well, you can guess. 

 Jesus was disturbed by the narrowness of Judaism and he boldly defied tradition in many ways, whether eating with sinners or 'breaking' the Sabbath or associating with Samaritans. I can't believe that he would give a hoot about the minutiae of mass. He would ask, as he did. "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say!?"

 Could go on but you get my drift. And by the way, one of the Catholic churches in town has the risen Christ above the altar rather than the crucified Christ. Personally, I think the former is a far better representative the central message of Christianity - victory over defeat, good over evil, positive over negative, hope over despair, etc. We are an Easter people and should cry aloud:  HE IS RISEN!  

  God bless the whole world with joy, harmony, peace, and love, and may he forgive us our pettiness.
Have you ever actually read the prayers of the Traditional Latin Mass?
Do you know anything about the difference in the Theology of the two different Masses?
The Latin Mass is not about “smells & bells”. It’s not about rubrics or even what you believe to be the “central message of Christianity”. It’s not about the Last Supper, or a “Communal Meal”. It’s about Calvary. Perhaps you remember Calvary?? It’s the place where Christ suffered horribly & died in order to open the gates of heaven.

"If then Death was the supreme moment for which Christ lived, it was therefore the one thing He wished to have remembered. He did not ask that men should write down His Words into a Scripture; He did not ask that His kindness to the poor should be recorded in history; but He did ask that men remember His Death. And in order that its memory might not be any haphazard narrative on the part of men, He Himself instituted the precise way it should be recalled.
Archbishop Fulton Sheen
from his book, “Calvary & the Mass”.
sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books/calvary/prologue.html
 
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