We did not ask for this fight, but we will not run from it. - Cardinal Dolan

[tgauchsin]

I read this article this morning and thought it had some great statistics on home much Catholic institutes contribute to American society.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

1. Most Catholic hospitals aren’t owned by a diocese. The most a Bishop could do is take away their title of “Catholic” and pull any funding the diocese gives them.
2. Primary and Secondary schools would, if I understand the HHS mandate correctly, be exempt because they primarily employ and serve members of the Catholic faith and exist for the explicit promotion of Catholic teaching. Catholic colleges and universities, on the other hand, would be forced to provide the coverage since they employ and serve public irregardless of their religious affiliation.

 

[grannymh]

1. Most Catholic hospitals aren’t owned by a diocese. The most a Bishop could do is take away their title of “Catholic” and pull any funding the diocese gives them.
2. Primary and Secondary schools would, if I understand the HHS mandate correctly, be exempt because they primarily employ and serve members of the Catholic faith and exist for the explicit promotion of Catholic teaching. Catholic colleges and universities, on the other hand, would be forced to provide the coverage since they employ and serve public irregardless of their religious affiliation.

Regarding point 1. Closing only one hospital could cause hardship for an average voter who lives in that area.

Regarding point 2. In general, Catholic primary and secononday schools exist to provide education within the norms established by the state educational associations. Their faculty and maintenance employees are not limited to Catholics. They do serve the community in that the student body is not limited to Catholics.

Many Catholic high schools are noted for their college prep education. They could close, regardless of who owns them, and this could cause hardship for the average voter who may have to depend on scholarship money to send children to college.

Regarding an additional point that with any closing, the unemployment rate goes up.

The right to religious liberty is not only a Catholic issue.

********** Why should the average non-theist voter have to suffer because a preferred hospital or school is closed?

 

[sedonaman]

Others, including myself, figure that Obama just thinks the bishops are bluffing, …

When Massachusetts and Illinois tried to force Catholic adoption charities to provide children to homosexual couples, the states found that the bishops weren’t bluffing.when they closed them down.

bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2011/12/29/illinois-catholic-charities-close-rather-than-allow-same-sex-couples-adopt-children/Km9RBLkpKzABNLJbUGhvJM/story.html

hotair.com/archives/2011/12/29/requirement-to-consider-gay-couples-for-adoption-forces-illinois-catholic-charities-affiliates-to-close/

 

[sedonaman]

…
********** Why should the average non-theist voter have to suffer because a preferred hospital or school is closed?

Because this is what the average voter, non-theist or otherwise, voted for. This is the bed he made; let him lie in it.

 

[PrayHarder]

I fear that closing religiously affiliated services, Catholic ones specifically, is the administration’s end game. The government will just replace them with public services – bloated, government-run bureaucracies that fall in lockstep with whatever crazy mandates the government imagines. It’s sad, but given the anti-religious tone this country has taken in the last few years, I see people accepting less/worse services as long as they aren’t run by “those crazy religous fanatics.”

 

[PaulinVA]

30% of (name removed by moderator)atient stays are at Catholic-affiliated hospitals. Add other denominations, and it might be 40% or higher.

So, let’s add 30 million people to the health insurance roles and close 30% of the (name removed by moderator)atient beds!

Yeah, that’s a recipe for success.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Regarding point 1. Closing only one hospital could cause hardship for an average voter who lives in that area.

Indeed. But that would be a rather low percentage of “Catholic” hospitals. Most aren’t owned by the diocese so the bishop can’t close them.

Regarding point 2. In general, Catholic primary and secononday schools exist to provide education within the norms established by the state educational associations. Their faculty and maintenance employees are not limited to Catholics. They do serve the community in that the student body is not limited to Catholics.

Many Catholic high schools are noted for their college prep education. They could close, regardless of who owns them, and this could cause hardship for the average voter who may have to depend on scholarship money to send children to college.

This is where its a bit of a gray area. Primary and secondary Catholic schools do give preference to Catholics for both students and faculty. They do not generally “serve the public” in the same sense that Catholic colleges and universities do.

 

[buffalo]

I don’t think Obama give one hoot about whether they close or not. Government hospitals will fill the vacancies. It is an easy way to move Catholic hospitals/institutions out of the equation and make them irrelevant.

I think the focus should be on the first amendment. Religious freedom and conscience protection for every citizen.

 

[grannymh]

Indeed. But that would be a rather low percentage of “Catholic” hospitals. Most aren’t owned by the diocese so the bishop can’t close them.

A sick average voter without a convenient hospital or an out-of-work average voter because an institution closed does not care about percentages.

This is where its a bit of a gray area. Primary and secondary Catholic schools do give preference to Catholics for both students and faculty. They do not generally “serve the public” in the same sense that Catholic colleges and universities do.

In some areas of the U.S., I agree that there would be a gray area. In other areas, the public served would be more affected if convenient institutions closed. It needs to be remembered that the public does include Catholics who are average voters.

In other words, I am looking at real life situations which could occur in any neighborhood Catholic or not.

 

[grannymh]

Because this is what the average voter, non-theist or otherwise, voted for. This is the bed he made; let him lie in it.

That may be so. However, I think that plenty of people would miss the convenience of nearby medical faciliies especially in the case of a heart attack or stroke.

In some areas of the country, hospitals have joined forces to provide medical care to a large city. What will happen if some of the doctors walk out?

What happens to a secular institution if a leading specialist retires?

 

[sedonaman]

That may be so. However, I think that plenty of people would miss the convenience of nearby medical faciliies especially in the case of a heart attack or stroke.

In some areas of the country, hospitals have joined forces to provide medical care to a large city. What will happen if some of the doctors walk out?

What happens to a secular institution if a leading specialist retires?

Whether they realized it or not, the average voter voted for these things. They weren’t listening when their self-proclaimed savior promised to “fundamentally change the way this country works.” Anyone with an IQ above room temperature could see this was going to be bad.

---

Old lady: “He spoke so well!”
Her grandson: “But grandma, what did he say?”
Old lady: “I don’t know, but he said it so well!”

 

[grannymh]

Whether they realized it or not, the average voter voted for these things. They weren’t listening when their self-proclaimed savior promised to “fundamentally change the way this country works.” Anyone with an IQ above room temperature could see this was going to be bad.

---

Old lady: “He spoke so well!”
Her grandson: “But grandma, what did he say?”
Old lady: “I don’t know, but he said it so well!”

Then it is time to inform our neighbors and friends that religious liberty is not only a Catholic issue. It will affect everyone regardless of the room temperatue.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

A sick average voter without a convenient hospital or an out-of-work average voter because an institution closed does not care about percentages.

Yes, but even then what is the diocese going to do with the building(s) and property? Its not as if it can easily be converted into something else. And if they sell it, guess who’s going to buy it? Another hospital chain.

If the diocese doesn’t sell it to another hospital chain, then they could be faced with the city/state taking it over by eminent domain.

 

[saraih]

Who has taken over Catholic adoption agency work since they pulled out of that?

I don’t think Obama thinks the Bishops are bluffing, he doesn’t really care either way - this is just a way to energise his disappointed female base. I think a lot of his women would have stayed at home this year, but threaten their freedom and they’ll vote in droves again. From an outsiders perspective it has been a fascinatingly manipulated shift of the national conversation.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Regarding point 1. Closing only one hospital could cause hardship for an average voter who lives in that area.

What makes you think that any hospitals would close?

If they’re run by religious orders the bishops couldn’t order them closed though they could order them to remove the “Catholic” name from the hospital. I don’t see that changing the name from St. X Catholic Hospital to St. X Hospital would make any difference to anyone.

The Catholic Health Association appears to be OK with the revised mandate – see lifesitenews.com/news/its-a-scandal-that-thecatholic-health-association-backed-obamas-accommodati

Other than a lot of sound of fury, what would change?

 

[timotheos]

I haven’t thought about this question enough, but I worry about the morality of simply closing shop and going home. To decide to discontinue providing of a compassionate service simply because the government forces you to comply with some illegal law is not a good long term solution. Civil disobediance is a better one. Catholic insurers can refuse to provide this coverage. When the government levies the penalty for not providing the coverage, refuse to pay it. Force the government to shut your Catholic hospital down, by sending in police if they have to. Oppose them non-violently at every turn. Continue practicing your vocation until they put you in jail.

Again, I haven’t thought it through well, but it looks like it may become more than just an interesting hypothetical exercise.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, but even then what is the diocese going to do with the building(s) and property? Its not as if it can easily be converted into something else. And if they sell it, guess who’s going to buy it? Another hospital chain.

If the diocese doesn’t sell it to another hospital chain, then they could be faced with the city/state taking it over by eminent domain.

A hospital can make a great hotel, business conference center, or dorm if it is near a city school. Often the property is more valuable than the building. I would not worry about Plan B.

I would worry about ordinary people losing their job. It takes a lot more than doctors and nurses to keep a hospital going. Also, think of the companies who sell supplies, food, gloves, x-ray equipment, etc. to a hospital. A good customer would be eliminated. Taxi cabs would be losing customers. Clinical trials would be discontinued. Emergency care would be gone. Paving companies would lose a parking lot customer. What about utility companies?

Throwing Christians to the lions did not work in the past.

 

[grannymh]

I haven’t thought about this question enough, but I worry about the morality of simply closing shop and going home. To decide to discontinue providing of a compassionate service simply because the government forces you to comply with some illegal law is not a good long term solution. Civil disobediance is a better one. Catholic insurers can refuse to provide this coverage. When the government levies the penalty for not providing the coverage, refuse to pay it. Force the government to shut your Catholic hospital down, by sending in police if they have to. Oppose them non-violently at every turn. Continue practicing your vocation until they put you in jail.

Again, I haven’t thought it through well, but it looks like it may become more than just an interesting hypothetical exercise.

Please give the Bishops some credit. Even before civil disobedience, major lawsuits are being filed.

This is not some illegal law. The mandate allows more and easier killing in the womb. The law is intended to take away religious freedom. Please do not forget the reason for the Pilgrims on the Mayflower.

 

[sedonaman]

Then it is time to inform our neighbors and friends that religious liberty is not only a Catholic issue. It will affect everyone regardless of the room temperatue.

That’s right, it will. By the time it does and they realize it, someone else of the opposition party will be in power and get all the blame.

I correspond with a Jewish friend every day, and I sent him this homily youtu.be/ltTd81XpDnc . He vigorously agreed with it and forwarded it to all his other friends with the comment, “Perhaps this is a reason for all to be ‘Catholics’ in spirit.”