We don't need baptism?

[NoelFitz]

I read in Tit 3:5 (NRSV)

he (God) saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

This verse struck me. It clearly seems to say we are not saved by works, or by our faith or our reading of the Bible (sola scriptura), but by God.

Does water of rebirth mean baptism or spiritual washing of some kind? Is the renewal of the Holy Spirit the anointing in baptism, or some gift of the Holy Spirit that is given independently of Baptism? Is baptism needed?

Really my question is* what does this verse mean?*

 

[thistle]

I read in Tit 3:5 (NRSV)

This verse struck me. It clearly seems to say we are not saved by works, or by our faith or our reading of the Bible (sola scriptura), but by God.

Does water of rebirth mean baptism or spiritual washing of some kind? Is the renewal of the Holy Spirit the anointing in baptism, or some gift of the Holy Spirit that is given independently of Baptism? Is baptism needed?

Really my question is* what does this verse mean?*

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 5. Not by the works, &c. St. Paul in this verse alludes to the sacrament of baptism. This text is brought by divines to prove that baptism, like every other sacrament, produces its effect by its own power, (or, as it is termed in the schools, ex opere operato) independently of any disposition on the part of the receiver. We are saved, says the apostle, not by the works of justice, or any good works we have performed, but our salvation must be attributed solely to the mercy of our Saviour, God, manifested to us by the washing itself of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost. — By the laver of regeneration, &c.[2] That is, baptism, by which we are born anew the adoptive children of God, by the grace of the Holy Ghost, whom he hath poured, &c. (Witham)

 

[NoelFitz]

Thistle,

many thanks for your reply to me.

I note that you have submittted almost 10,000 posts and you are in the Philippines. Congratulations!

What is the Rosary Confraternity?

You suggest (following Haydock) that baptism is inferred in this verse. I am inclined to agree. Maybe this reflects our Catholic background.

I am studying the Bible on my own (PEs at present) and I really need the (name removed by moderator)ut from others, so I appreciate your interest and that of all those who reply to my contributions.

 

[Springkeeper]

I read in Tit 3:5 (NRSV)

This verse struck me. It clearly seems to say we are not saved by works, or by our faith or our reading of the Bible (sola scriptura), but by God.

Does water of rebirth mean baptism or spiritual washing of some kind? Is the renewal of the Holy Spirit the anointing in baptism, or some gift of the Holy Spirit that is given independently of Baptism? Is baptism needed?

Really my question is* what does this verse mean?*

Ironically, I heard this discussed briefly yesterday in the Akins vs White debate CD. Jimmy Akins mentioned that up until Calvin, baptism was always considered considered essential to salvation

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” KJV

  works: ergon(GK): toil (as an effort or occupation)
  washing: loutron(Greek): washing, bath, baptism
  regeneration: paliggenesia (GK) spiritual rebirth, spiritual renovation; specially,     Messianic restoration 
  renewing: anakainosis(GK): renewing, renovating

People’s New Testament commentary:

“Washing to regeneration is literally, bath of regeneration. All commentators of reputation refer this to baptism, such as Meyer, Olshausen, Lange, Plumptrebooks.google.com/books?id=N9JJN8ERbuAC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=plumptre+baptism&source=bl&ots=l4P0-qb0S3&sig=NlJY_M7i3drMsLdlwgB_FzCsV4U&hl=en&ei=i-p8TO-5KIKdlgfv4LHsCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false, Schaff, Canon Cook, Wesley, etc. Regeneration is due to the Holy Spirit, but baptism is an outward act that God requires to complete the fact. The term regeneration only occurs here and Mt 19:28”.

And in Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament (very thorough, some quotes listed below): searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=tit&chapter=003:

Before taking up a line-by-line analysis of this, it is profitable to glance at other Scriptures which are admitted by scholars to be parallel to the teaching here. Scripture is always the best comment on Scripture. “As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Galatians 3:27).

Beasley-Murray said, “The relation of baptism to justification in 1 Cor. 6:11 and in Titus 3:5 is fundamentally the same: the grace that baptizes is the grace that justifies, inseparably one, and experienced as one.”

It is imperative to notice that “the washing of regeneration” mentioned at once is by that very citation excluded from the “works done in righteousness” which are contrasted with it.

God saved us by baptism, which involves two complementary processes, (a) the ceremony itself which marks the actual moment in time of the new birth, and (b) the daily, hourly, momently renewing of the Holy Spirit.

The same twin elements in the new birth are evident in Peter’s Pentecostal command to “Repent and be baptized… receive the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38,39).

Baptism is not a work of men; no man ever baptized himself

All of the authors I have seen who explain this passage either clearly state that the Bible says what it means and that salvation is inextricably linked to baptism or they spend an awful lot of time trying to justify their position that baptism is a “work” and therefore has no redemptive value.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I read in Tit 3:5 (NRSV)

This verse struck me. It clearly seems to say we are not saved by works, or by our faith or our reading of the Bible (sola scriptura), but by God.

Does water of rebirth mean baptism or spiritual washing of some kind? Is the renewal of the Holy Spirit the anointing in baptism, or some gift of the Holy Spirit that is given independently of Baptism? Is baptism needed?

Really my question is* what does this verse mean?*

The way I think of it is like a kid playing in a mud puddle. He hears his mother calling him for supper so he turns and leaves the puddle, but he is still covered with mud. So his mother washes him and makes sure he is clean. It is the same when Jesus calls us; we repent and leave the mud puddle of our sins, but our sins are still on us, so He washes us, and makes sure we are clean, by means of baptism. Baptism is the way Jesus established so we know are sins are washed away. (Luther knew this, and emphasized it, “I am baptized!”)

However, some groups deny this for some unknown reason, and say baptism is simply symbolic and an ordnance. Well, in the Bible God and Jesus almost always linked a physical activity to His healing or saving. Such as General Naaman in 2Kings who had to wash in the Jordan to wash away his leprosy. The Israelites who had to make a bronze serpent and gaze upon it in order to be healed of the bites of the fiery serpents. The blind man who had to wash the mud away from his eyes, put there by Jesus, in the pool of Shiloam. And the woman who was bleeding who touched Jesus’ cloak in order to be healed.

Notice an activity had to be performed in conjunction with the healing in all these examples. There are more instances. But that is what baptism is, the activity performed upon the person. Not something the person does, but something done to him/her. We have sins on us we cannot remove, and there is nothing we can do to remove them ourselves. But Jesus can, via baptism.

Sure, faith alone saves us. And because we have faith alone in Jesus, we let him wash us in baptism, the water of rebirth.

 

[po18guy]

I read in Tit 3:5 (NRSV)

This verse struck me. It clearly seems to say we are not saved by works, or by our faith or our reading of the Bible (sola scriptura), but by God.

Does water of rebirth mean baptism or spiritual washing of some kind? Is the renewal of the Holy Spirit the anointing in baptism, or some gift of the Holy Spirit that is given independently of Baptism? Is baptism needed?

Really my question is* what does this verse mean?*

The letter to Titus was very similar to the First Letter to Timothy, and relates to teaching of sound doctrine. Both Timothy and Titus are encouraged to appoint good men as leaders and to root our false teachers and false doctrine that was being taught by those who sought monetary gain.

Paul, speaking of “works”, was writing regarding those who viewed the Mosaic law as the path to righteousness. Thus, the term “works” refers to the Jewish “Law”. Jesus freed us from the law by fulfilling it. Water Baptism is required and is the first of the Sacraments, as it is your re-birth into Christ. Pope John Paul II said that the greatest day of his life was his Baptism, as nothing would have followed without it. The Holy Spirit is given in Confirmation, which follows Baptism. Jesus commanded that believers be baptized (Mark 16:16, Matthew 29:19), so our Lord tells us clearly that there is no second Sacrament without partaking of the first.

Read John 3, particularly verses 3-5, where Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus about being born from above (or, born again"). Water and the Spirit open our lives to God’s graces through a cleansing of our soul and the reception of the Holy Spirit and His gifts.

 

[inkaneer]

Baptism of proper form and matter [water and the Trinitarian formula] is absolutely necessary for salvation for that is the way the merits of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross are applied to us individually. That is why the Apostle writes, “We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” [Romans 6:4]

 

[Zooey]

Baptism IS a spiritual washing.

Read John 3, particularly verses 3-5, where Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus about being born from above (or, born again"). Water and the Spirit open our lives to God’s graces through a cleansing of our soul and the reception of the Holy Spirit and His gifts.

Yup.

 

[thistle]

Thistle,

many thanks for your reply to me.

I note that you have submittted almost 10,000 posts and you are in the Philippines. Congratulations!

What is the Rosary Confraternity?

You suggest (following Haydock) that baptism is inferred in this verse. I am inclined to agree. Maybe this reflects our Catholic background.

I am studying the Bible on my own (PEs at present) and I really need the (name removed by moderator)ut from others, so I appreciate your interest and that of all those who reply to my contributions.

So your thread does not get sidetracked I’ll simply refer you for now to the website for the Rosary Confraternity:

rosary-center.org/

 

[Joe_Kelley]

It appears to me that Jesus gave the Church two missions:

15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

To preach the gospel and to baptize. These are the essentials; all else is support. Note that He says preach the gospel; nothing about writing it or for the believers reading it.

 

[NoelFitz]

I am very grateful to all who contributed to this debate. It has helped me clarify my thinking and get to understand Paul a bit better.

The basic question was to understand the verse (NRSV Tit 3:5):

he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Are you surprised that most (if not all) of us think baptism is important?

But the discussion has raised some issues I am not too sure of. Some of the replies were somewhat off-topic, as I wanted to focus solely on this verse.

The topic of justification by faith is huge, and perhaps can be looked at later.

Zooey has told us baptism is spiritual washing. It is more that this as it is the most important sacrament. Spiritual washing could mean lots of things.

I listened to the Akins vs White debate. I would not agree that up until Calvin baptism was considered essential for salvation. I would claim it still is.

Springkeeper quotes the KJV, I prefer the NRSV. There is a mention of all commentators of reputation… such as Meyer, Olshausen and Lange. I am not familiar with these.

Inkaneer mentioned the need of proper form and matter, I disagree, since baptism of desire is possible.

Mackbrislawn gives an analogy with a mother washing her son, which is imaginative. Your theology is deep and prompts reflection. I would claim that in baptism we are washed clean, our sins are no longer on us, so I think I disagree with you.

I read “baptism is an outward sign”. I agree fully, all sacraments are outward signs of inward grace.

However no one has commented on the need for the water of rebirth AND the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

To be baptized all that is necessary is water and the appropriate formula. But in the baptism ceremony there is anointing, this presumably is associated with the renewal by the Holy Spirit. But this anointing is not essential. Thus in baptism is renewal by the Holy Spirit necessary, or does it come with the washing?

Thanks to all of you. I have now finished my study of the PEs, and am now thinking of studying Paul in a a general way and hope, with all your help, it will be of benefit .

 

[mackbrislawn]

I
Mackbrislawn gives an analogy with a mother washing her son, which is imaginative. Your theology is deep and prompts reflection. I would claim that in baptism we are washed clean, our sins are no longer on us, so I think I disagree with you.

IHowever no one has commented on the need for the water of rebirth AND the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

.

I agree, in baptism we are washed clean, our sins are no longer on us. Not just covered up, but actually washed away. I tend to think of washing of sins and renewal of the Holy Spirit as connected.

 

[inkaneer]

Baptism IS a spiritual washing.
Yup.

It is more than that. It is the entry rite into the church. Just as circumcision was the entry into Judaism, Baptism is what makes someone a Christian. The early church was adamant that without Baptism one was doomed to hell.

Origen wrote:

“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Augustine wrote:

“. . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too” (*Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants *1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

Cyril of Jerusalem wrote:

“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.”
(*Catechetical Lectures *3:10 [A.D. 350]).

 

[rocketrob]

However no one has commented on the need for the water of rebirth AND the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

To be baptized all that is necessary is water and the appropriate formula. But in the baptism ceremony there is anointing, this presumably is associated with the renewal by the Holy Spirit. But this anointing is not essential. Thus in baptism is renewal by the Holy Spirit necessary, or does it come with the washing?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church comments on this explicitly. If you haven’t already done so, you might want to read Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1:

THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

CCC Paragraph 1213
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word.”

CCC Paragraph 1215
This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

Renewal by the Holy Spirit is the result of baptism. Baptism regenerates the soul, removing the effects of original sin which prevent the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. With the waters of baptism, the soul is permanently transformed (renewed, regenerated, reborn) by the Holy Spirit (which acts in all Sacraments) such that the Holy Spirit can begin to infuse it. This process is subsequently completed with the Sacrament of Confirmation.

CCC 1285
Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace. For “by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed.”

rocketrob

 

[po18guy]

Our Lord, just before ascending, stated clearly that Baptism is a requirement for salvation (Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16). In that same passage from Mark, Jesus refers to both faith (belief) and Baptism being necessary for salvation. Saint Peter taught, by the power of the Spirit, that Baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21), as he was present at the Ascension when Jesus commanded Baptism. Again, “works” were the physical rituals of the Mosaic law, which, up to that time, were for man’s justification. As to faith, Jesus was astonished at the lack of faith in His own town (Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:6), as well as lamenting the fact that He might not find and faith when He returned to earth (Luke 18:8).

As to Paul’s writings, remember that Peter said that there were things in them which were hard to understand, and which even then in the Apostolic age, were twisted to mean other things (2 Peter 3:16). Paul himself knew that Christ was the head, with the Church being His Body (Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18). He also knew that the Church was the earthly pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and so it was the final authority on all matters. So, any and all of scripture must be interpreted through the lens of the Church’s Magisterium, and within the context of the entirety of scripture and Tradition.