We don't need religion . .

[ziapueblo]

Here’s the deal. My co-worker says something along these lines, “we don’t need religion and tradtions, it’s all about a relationship with Christ!” I’m sure you have all heard that before. Maybe at one time many of you said it yourselves.

This comment came from a discussion we were having about unity. I was explaining that our Lord Jesus wants His Church to be united, one body, just as He and the Father are one. There are to be no dissensions between us and we must all be of the same mind. He went on and on about religion (the Catholic Church) is a third party and gets in the way of our “relationship” with Christ. I discussed with him that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth,” and that “if you have a problem with another to take it to the Church” (paraphrased of course). It’s as if he is ignoring whatever I say.

What can I do to make him understand the Catholic teaching on this. I’m not looking to convert him or anything. I just want him to take time and actually think about this. What have any of you done in this situation? Those of you who were on the other end and came home to the Catholic Church, what made you have a change of heart on this whole “it’s a relationship and religion and traditions are evil?”

God bless,
ZP

p.s.

I’m guessing by religion he means the Catholic Church.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Specifically to his comment about not needing religion: God seems to have no problem with it:

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. James 1:27

To your question, here are some Scripture verses about unity and staying away from dissension. Unity, according to these scriptures was very important.

1 Tim 1:3 Paul urges us not to have people who teach different doctrines

1 Tim 4:1 Talks about people who will give way to deceitful spirits

Eph 4:14 warns us about being tossed to and fro by doctrines of cunning men

Titus 1:9 Hold firm in sound doctrine

Rom. 15:5 Paul tells us we must have harmony between us.

Rom. 16:17 Paul again is warning us to stay away from those who create dissensions and conflicts.

1 Cor. 14:33 God is not the God of confusion.

1 Peter 3:8 Peter charges us to have unity in spirit.

Phil. 2:2 Paul prays that we will have one mind.

And don’t forget the most important one:

I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,** that they may all be one**; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Jn 17:20-21

I will tell you what, if a Protestant will not listen to the Scriptures, you are in a world of hurt.

God bless

 

[fellowChristian]

It sounds like he doesn’t know the Bible real well. That maybe he’s just repeating something he heard.

I mean without tradition, the passing on down, we wouldn’t even have the Gospel. No where in the Bible does Jesus command the Apostles to write…anything. As a matter of fact out of 12 Apostles only Matthew,John, and Peter wrote. (correct me if I’m wrong).

Someone who knows the Bible can’t really believe that the church isn’t important especially after reading …

Ephesians 5

22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

**27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. **

28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

**29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, **just as Christ also does the church,

30because we are members of His body.

31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, **AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. **

33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

Now the only question that should be asked is, which church:shrug: ?

 

[ziapueblo]

Thanks

 

[mlchance]

Religion is a virtue. Who would say we don’t need virtue?

CCC 2095 The theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity inform and give life to the moral virtues. Thus charity leads us to render to God what we as creatures owe him in all justice. The virtue of religion disposes us to have this attitude.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Here’s the deal. My co-worker says something along these lines, “we don’t need religion and tradtions, it’s all about a relationship with Christ!” I’m sure you have all heard that before. Maybe at one time many of you said it yourselves.

This comment came from a discussion we were having about unity. I was explaining that our Lord Jesus wants His Church to be united, one body, just as He and the Father are one. There are to be no dissensions between us and we must all be of the same mind. He went on and on about religion (the Catholic Church) is a third party and gets in the way of our “relationship” with Christ. I discussed with him that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth,” and that “if you have a problem with another to take it to the Church” (paraphrased of course). It’s as if he is ignoring whatever I say.

What can I do to make him understand the Catholic teaching on this. I’m not looking to convert him or anything. I just want him to take time and actually think about this. What have any of you done in this situation? Those of you who were on the other end and came home to the Catholic Church, what made you have a change of heart on this whole “it’s a relationship and religion and traditions are evil?”

God bless,
ZP

Jesus founded a visible Church
Adapted from “The Necessity of Being Catholic”
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

The Church Jesus Christ founded is a visible communion. This is proven in Matthew 16:17-19, the passage in which Christ promised the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church (meaning that it would always exist). Several factors in the text show he was talking about a visible communion.

First, Jesus made Peter head of this Church (Matt. 16:18), yet Jesus was certainly not making Peter the head of an invisible Church. It is Christ’s own prerogative to be head of the invisible communion of Christians stretching from heaven to earth (Eph. 5:23). Therefore, he must have made Peter the head of a visible, earthly church. (We will not argue here that Jesus made Peter the head; even if one disagrees, the remaining arguments prove our case.)

Second, Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:19), which are for use in Church government (compare Isa. 22:22 – the only Old Testament parallel to this verse). But one cannot govern an invisible communion of believers, only a visible one.

Third, Jesus gave Peter the power of binding and loosing (Matt. 16:19), which Matthew 18:17-18 indicates is used in Church discipline. But one cannot exercise Church discipline over an invisible body. Indeed, Matt. 18:17-18 refers it to public excommunication, in which an individual is treated by the church as “a gentile or a tax collector” (that is, as an unbeliever).

Fourth, Jesus explicitly stated that Peter would exercise the power of binding and loosing on earth. This shows his authority is an earthly one, over an earthly Church.

Fifth, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18), meaning that it would never perish. But it would be ridiculous to promise that an invisible Church would not pass out of existence since some of the Church’s members are in heaven and Christ’s heavenly Church cannot pass away by its very nature. Only a visible, earthly communion needs a promise that it will never perish.

There are thus abundant reasons to conclude that the Church Jesus was discussing in Matthew 16:17-19 was a visible communion of believers, and, since only the Catholic Church goes back that far, only it can be the one Christ founded.
p.s.

I’m guessing by religion he means the Catholic Church.

 

[fhansen]

I began to realize that my problem with the Church was really a problem with authority and problems with authority are ultimately a problem with Gods’ authority. As a Protestant, *I *was pretty much the authority because I interpreted the book for myself-thinking I was receiving the truth directly from the HS. When I began to see that other Protestants who held to that same authority- Scripture-were coming up with sometimes very different understandings from it, I eventually came to the point where I knew that the only true claimant to the title “Church” could be the Catholic or Orthodox-it was them or nothing.

Go to the Catholic Answers homepage and do a search for “sola scriptura”-there’ll be plenty of resources there. You’re not going to change your friends’ heart overnight but you’ll be able to plant seeds. Even though they claim to have eliminated the middle man, they haven’t because they still must rely on the bible as their authority and then rely on themselves to interpret it-*they *become the middle man-and humans aren’t guaranteed infallibility-we’re the fallen ones. It’s all a matter of who we trust. We can recognize the sound of the Shepards’ voice in the bible but need the Church He established to understand the full meaning of His Word. The Church, according to Scripture, is the “pillar and foundation of truth.”

 

[JRKH]

Here’s the deal. My co-worker says something along these lines, “we don’t need religion and tradtions, it’s all about a relationship with Christ!” I’m sure you have all heard that before. Maybe at one time many of you said it yourselves.

This comment came from a discussion we were having about unity. I was explaining that our Lord Jesus wants His Church to be united, one body, just as He and the Father are one. There are to be no dissensions between us and we must all be of the same mind. He went on and on about religion (the Catholic Church) is a third party and gets in the way of our “relationship” with Christ. I discussed with him that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth,” and that “if you have a problem with another to take it to the Church” (paraphrased of course). It’s as if he is ignoring whatever I say.

What can I do to make him understand the Catholic teaching on this. I’m not looking to convert him or anything. I just want him to take time and actually think about this. What have any of you done in this situation? Those of you who were on the other end and came home to the Catholic Church, what made you have a change of heart on this whole “it’s a relationship and religion and traditions are evil?”

God bless,
ZP

p.s.

I’m guessing by religion he means the Catholic Church.

Quite frankly it was “discipline”.
What “religion” and “The Church” offers is a structure and discipline within which we pursue our relationship with Christ.
I would grant to your friend that many people look on religion as “follow the rules and your OK”, which is really not true. However it is even more true that pursuing a “relationship with Christ” without any of the Church’s guidance and “ritual” is even more difficult and dangerous.

Ask your friend if Jesus thought we didn’t need a “Church”. If we don’t need a church then why did Jesus institute one and give it authority (Mt 16: 18-19) Why did he tell his deciples to “Tell it to the Church” (Mt 18:15-19)

Then ask your friend, “If, as you say, it’s about having a relationship with Christ, and Christ himself tells you to submit to the Church (tell it to the church) what does it say about your relationship if you will not submit to his words? Are you truly following Christ if you deny the need for His Church?”

Peace
James

 

[Catholicdeacon]

Here’s the deal. My co-worker says something along these lines, “we don’t need religion and tradtions, it’s all about a relationship with Christ!” I’m sure you have all heard that before. Maybe at one time many of you said it yourselves.

It is a fallacy to think that you can have a relationship with Jesus without religion. Why? Because religion is an expression of your faith. Religion is what we do when we are give the gift of faith. I’m not talking about Catholicism or even the Christian religion. If you go to the Amazon and pick a native that have never heard the Gospel, but that worships something greater than Him (regardless if this something is a jaguar or a tree) we say that he has a “religion”.
You can not have a relationship without expression! You might think that asking God for help when you are in trouble and felling all “mushy” in side when you hear “Oh holy night” is a relationship but is not. Faith needs expression and there is not better place to do this than in community.

In His love…

Catholic Deacon

 

[m134e5]

It’s interesting to me how people can say things like “we don’t need religion”- as if they really know the spiritual needs of others. They seem to operate on the assumption that our traditions are a burden to us, and cause us to focus on the traditions themselves instead of God. I usually don’t bother to talk to people like that- they have closed their minds to things that may be different from what they know, and God has a much better chance of opening them again than I do.

 

[ziapueblo]

It’s interesting to me how people can say things like “we don’t need religion”- as if they really know the spiritual needs of others. They seem to operate on the assumption that our traditions are a burden to us, and cause us to focus on the traditions themselves instead of God. I usually don’t bother to talk to people like that- they have closed their minds to things that may be different from what they know, and God has a much better chance of opening them again than I do.

I agree with you. Only the Holy Spirit can change the hearts and minds of men.

 

[JRKH]

It’s interesting to me how people can say things like “we don’t need religion”- as if they really know the spiritual needs of others. They seem to operate on the assumption that our traditions are a burden to us, and cause us to focus on the traditions themselves instead of God. I usually don’t bother to talk to people like that- they have closed their minds to things that may be different from what they know, and God has a much better chance of opening them again than I do.

It would depend on the individual I think as to whether it’s worth talking to them.
However I certainly would not argue the fact that some people DO treat tradition and ritual as burdensome. Just look at how fast many people head for the door after mass. How many seem to go to mass because they “have to” rather than because they want to and love to. The more of us who can express our LOVE of Tradition and sacraments the better. The more we can demonstrate to others that we are not burdened by such things the better chance we have of reaching such unenlightened folks.
There really needs to be a sense of, “I get to go to Church”, rather than, " I have to go to Church", especially when evangelizing. It’s like the old Huck Finn story about painting the fence. Huck, by showing everyone how special and fun painting was, was able to get others to want to paint the fence too. Maybe not the most pure example, but…useful.

Peace
James

 

[danaemariejoan]

Having a religion helps us to understand our relationship with God better. If I did not have my Catholic religion I would not know God. So we must have religion.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The mantra “we don’t need religion…” sounds so much like a religion to me and a self evident contradiction.

I wonder how a person stating “we don’t need religion” would respond to a retort “Amen brother!”

James

 

[SedesDomi]

Just look at how fast many people head for the door after mass. How many seem to go to mass because they “have to” rather than because they want to and love to.

It’s the traffic, man, it’s the traffic.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s the traffic, man, it’s the traffic.

And where are you in such a hurry to go to, on the Lord’s day of rest?

I am also frustrated with the same problem, along with the issue of people who don’t go to Church because “it’s not meeting my needs.”

One person was upset because her church congregation (some kind of little non-denom outfit) was not helping her to meet a husband.

Even if one is Protestant, it seems that if you don’t “get” that we go to Church for Jesus, then all the entertainment and uplifting in the world won’t keep you faithful.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Just look at how fast many people head for the door after mass. How many seem to go to mass because they “have to” rather than because they want to and love to.

Personally I could never understand it.
All these people rush out and jump in their cars and ---- sit - - and ----sit - -waiting to get out of the parking lot.:whacky:

We stay after mass to pray and give thanks for the greatest gift ever recieved by mankind. Then we will sit for another 5 minutes or so - All in a nice warm, comfortable Church - just contemplating or talking quietly, then we go out to the car and leave without any traffic at all and with no stress.

'Course I’ve always liked sitting in a church that was mostly empty and quiet. Even when I was a kid in grade school I’d go up into church during recess and sit. There was something interesting about sitting in a quiet Church with all the playground noise outside. Wierd maybe and I haven’t thought of that in years but it was peaceful somehow…

Peace
James

 

[BJRumph]

What can I do to make him understand the Catholic teaching on this.

Well, first off, YOU cannot do this. YOU cannot make anyone “understand” anything, especially when they have already made up their mind about the issue. All you can do (which, as it turns out, is the best) is pray for them to be given the Grace to understand.

However, this does not mean that you cannot continue to discuss your faith or share your understanding of the subject. Indeed, that is part of the whole Christian ‘exhortation’ we are all called to. BUT, you need to humbly remember your limitations, and identify where the issue lay. It is not about you; it is about them. They hold the ‘power’ here, only they can decide to change their minds. You can’t do it for them.

It is a fallacy to think that you can have a relationship with Jesus without religion. Why? Because religion is an expression of your faith.

EXACTLY! Thank you Deacon. One’s religion IS their ‘relationship’ with Christ; it is the response and communion of one’s Faith in Him. Religion is the dynamic Life of Faith being formed of the very Relationship your friend is trying to oppose it to. Its like trying to turn Breathing against Living, it doesn’t work.

Whether that ‘religion’ is Catholic or Protestant (or something else entirely) is a separate matter, although I’d guess that it is this latter issue that your friend is actually speaking to and about.

 

[ziapueblo]

You are right, I cannot change anyones mind or heart. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. All I can do is discuss my faith and make sure that his questions are answered correctly.

Thanks and God bless,
ZP

 

[c659smith]

Personally I could never understand it.
All these people rush out and jump in their cars and ---- sit - - and ----sit - -waiting to get out of the parking lot.:whacky:

We stay after mass to pray and give thanks for the greatest gift ever recieved by mankind. Then we will sit for another 5 minutes or so - All in a nice warm, comfortable Church - just contemplating or talking quietly, then we go out to the car and leave without any traffic at all and with no stress.

'Course I’ve always liked sitting in a church that was mostly empty and quiet. Even when I was a kid in grade school I’d go up into church during recess and sit. There was something interesting about sitting in a quiet Church with all the playground noise outside. Wierd maybe and I haven’t thought of that in years but it was peaceful somehow…

Peace
James

I agree esspecially those leaving immediatel after communion. It is a shame as they are missing out on a very special part of the Mass that involves them and for their benefit.

The Blessing by the priest.