We Grew up with It

[brotherhrolf]

I will be 58 come September. I grew up and made my First Communion and was Confirmed with the Mass in Latin. I was an altar boy until the beginning of my senior year in 1968.

Most importantly, I am not dead yet nor are many of my brothers and sisters who also grew up with Mass in Latin.

I would have to brush up on the rubrics, but I would have no problems with the Latin if I were required to serve today.

OK all you folks who were alive way back when and who aren’t dead yet…

We grew up with the Latin Mass. I had no problems with it. Did you?

 

[bpbasilphx]

I assume you mean the Extraordinary Form. Don’t forget that the Pauline Mass can be celebrated in Latin.

I have no problem with it, either.

I have great difficulty with an ATTITUDE some people show about it, claiming that it is somehow the superior rite. This is seen in such phrases as “Mass of the Ages” or “more efficacious.”

ALL authorized Liturgies of the Church are the Mass of the Ages.

 

[Catholic1954]

I never had a problem with it, but always felt more like I was watching Mass than participating in it. The Mass is the Mass of course, but I prefer to attend it in English.

 

[thunderballs75]

I didn’t grow up with it, and I have no problem with it. However, we must also remember, that *many *people did not grow up with it. So for us to say “we should take away the Latin Mass” to you, is like saying “we should take the OF away” to them.

I think they should go together, at least at this point.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I’m a bit younger than you, but I “grew up with it” because I attended a very conservative Catholic school. We had Mass every morning before classes, and it was in Latin. Our Pastor managed to keep our school masses traditional for years, and he also kept a lot of the folk song army and the more drastic changes out of our Sunday masses as well. We ALL attended every day, kindergarten through 8th grade. We were taught the chants and the hymns during music class time and even the littlest ones could sing them easily. Of course, as we grew up we understood more about what the Mass was about, but I would assume that would be true of any child. Our religion classes covered the prayers and the theology and by 2nd grade we knew what was going on and why it was so important. We made our first Confession and first Communion that year and I knew exactly what I was doing. Sure, there were days when I “watched” more than participating, but I can do that with the OF too.

When I went to HS, and Father retired-the changes were jarring. The new hip Priest that replaced him brought it ALL in. We were invaded by the guitars, the drums, the banners…and out went all the traditional hymns and prayers. The tabernacle got put in a back room and most of the statues were removed. We didn’t have daily Mass at HS, and the principal was another young hip guy that wanted our school liturgies to be “relevant”, but that kind of erased the reverence. I went to Mass because I was taught that it was right-but I missed the reverence for the Eucharist that I had learned. I missed the prayers after Mass, I missed the silence, I missed the bells, I missed the Last Gospel, and yes, I missed the Latin. I felt like the Church that had raised me had suddenly vanished and to a teenager that was scary. I had been taught that the Church was my foundation, something that I could always count on to be there for me. There I was, at 14 with my foundation shaking like an earthquake. If the Church could change that much, how could I feel secure about anything?

 

[CB_Catholic]

I will be 58 come September. I grew up and made my First Communion and was Confirmed with the Mass in Latin. I was an altar boy until the beginning of my senior year in 1968.

Most importantly, I am not dead yet nor are many of my brothers and sisters who also grew up with Mass in Latin.

I would have to brush up on the rubrics, but I would have no problems with the Latin if I were required to serve today.

OK all you folks who were alive way back when and who aren’t dead yet…

We grew up with the Latin Mass. I had no problems with it. Did you?

I grew up with it too. I can’t say I had any problems with it, but I was not at all unhappy with Mass in English, I liked it better. I am very orthodox in my Catholicism, but I am not a traditionalist in the sense it is used in this forum. I have no problem at all with people preferring it, but I have no desire whatsoever to return to the EF. I also do not have the experience of people my age or older wanting to go back to it. Outside of these forums, I don’t know anybody who wants to. But I can only speak for my experience.

Now if you are trying to get a sense of what the majority of older Catholics think, these forums are not reflective of the majority of older Catholics. They are only reflective of people who come to the forums, which is a very small percentage of Catholics in general. So you are not going to be able to extrapolate anything, one way or another, about what most older Catholics think about the EF.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I am being chastized left, right, and sideways. I am no triumphalist, Bishop Basil, I have never seen the Pauline Mass celebrated in Latin except on EWTN.

It saddens me to have to drive 25 miles one way as I have done for the last 28 years because my local parishes were more like Protestant churches.

I have no desire to take away the OF from anyone. I am more concerned about the fundamental injustice which was done to all of us who were alive and in the pews on the First Sunday of Advent 1969. A mighty conspiracy theory…Oh, yeah, I want to restore the TLM.

Think again. Think again and then again, again. Forty years ago, I was an altar boy. Forty years ago I sang in my high school choir for the class of 1968. Forty years ago my classmates made me have to sing “Sons of God”, Simon and Garfunkle, and “And They’ll Know We are Christians”. An entire choir dissolved for…what?

Did I get a choice back then? Did I get a vote? Go back and read what Vatican II said and then see what has been done in the “spirit of Vatican II”.

I grew up with a Missa Cantata. When I was not serving on the altar, I was in the pews with my mother and siblings. We chanted Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc. Everything we do today in English, I grew up with Latin.

I’ve got 40 years of history to look back over. Forty years. I’m not dead and I have memories of what came before and experience of what is now. I guess I’m just supposed to roll over and play dead.

 

[Ohiomom]

I am a convert and if I had been Catholic as a child, I would have been baptised in the EF, but, baring having been in a more traditional parish, it all would have changed by the time I was in kindergarten.

Obviously, my conversion and RCIA experience was in the vernacular, but I was alway interested in Latin and loved the bits of chant and hymns when I was in choirs. I eventually joined a very traditional parish that celebrated/es a beautiful NO (communion rail, altar boys wearing albs and dress shoes, communion distributed by our priests only, wonderful music, homilies that explained and support church teachings, confession every day-yes, including Sundays).

If we had stayed in Ohio I am certain we would still be at that parish and I would be happy. I have been attending the TLM since the spring because I finally could not stand the horrid music, liturgical free for all and the lack of reverence in the NO churches in our area. I started going to the TLM thinking I would still miss the NO and the participation, but my eyes were quickly opened. I am able to concentrate and worship in a way that I had not since I had left Ohio. I understand why some who are adamant about the EF feel that way. If every parish were like my Ohio one, there would not be as much of an issue, but the “liturgy in most faith communities” does sometimes seem more like a celebration of the communities’ meal than the sacrifice of the mass.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I am being chastized left, right, and sideways. I am no triumphalist, Bishop Basil, I have never seen the Pauline Mass celebrated in Latin except on EWTN.

It saddens me to have to drive 25 miles one way as I have done for the last 28 years because my local parishes were more like Protestant churches.

I have no desire to take away the OF from anyone. I am more concerned about the fundamental injustice which was done to all of us who were alive and in the pews on the First Sunday of Advent 1969. A mighty conspiracy theory…Oh, yeah, I want to restore the TLM.

Think again. Think again and then again, again. Forty years ago, I was an altar boy. Forty years ago I sang in my high school choir for the class of 1968. Forty years ago my classmates made me have to sing “Sons of God”, Simon and Garfunkle, and “And They’ll Know We are Christians”. An entire choir dissolved for…what?

Did I get a choice back then? Did I get a vote? Go back and read what Vatican II said and then see what has been done in the “spirit of Vatican II”.

I grew up with a Missa Cantata. When I was not serving on the altar, I was in the pews with my mother and siblings. We chanted Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc. Everything we do today in English, I grew up with Latin.

I’ve got 40 years of history to look back over. Forty years. I’m not dead and I have memories of what came before and experience of what is now. I guess I’m just supposed to roll over and play dead.

In all honesty, Brotherholf, I have not seen one word of chastisement or criticism of you in any of the responses to your question in this thread. BBasil was not directing anything at you personally, and none of my comments were directed at you, just answering your question.

I truly hope and pray that you will somehow be able to find some peace about the changes in the Church. You don’t have to like them, but I hope that you can someday come to terms with it, because we can’t ever go back to 40 years ago, it is not possible to turn the clock back, and we cannot undo the past. There is a lot of bitterness and resentment and sadness coming through in your posts, (and I’ve read many of your posts) and that can’t be easy to live with, and that is not spiritually healthy. I will pray for you that you find some peace. I mean that sincerely, and not as criticism. I can see how you have been suffering, and hope that the Lord can ease some of that.

 

[adstrinity]

I am being chastized left, right, and sideways. I am no triumphalist, Bishop Basil, I have never seen the Pauline Mass celebrated in Latin except on EWTN.

St. John Cantius, Chicago, IL, 1100 every Sunday. Check it out if you’re there. The TLM High Mass is at 1230.

It saddens me to have to drive 25 miles one way as I have done for the last 28 years because my local parishes were more like Protestant churches.

Near 100 miles, one way for me. It is a shame because the church closest to my house is SOOOO beautiful. It has a communion rail and the Stations of the Cross are not the funky modern kind. They are 3D and painted and the beauty of them is that as the Stations Progress, the sky gets more and more stormy. It starts off with the Condemnation being a bright sunny blue sky with clouds day and progresses to Stormy black and lightening as He’s taken down from the cross. Problem? The last time I went there for a Mass the priest was basically saying we need to be more like the Protestants because one guy left because when he got sick, nobody from his Church came to see him but, people from his wife’s church did and because of that, he converted…at least, that’s what I got out of the homily. That and I’ve noticed, the churches that celebrate the TLM, have Confession before Mass. THAT is a big plus.

Incidentally, I grew up Protestant. Came to the Church in 2001. The Church where I was confirmed didn’t have a crucifix but rather a cross and as the priest was showing us catechumens the church and said why a cross and why not a crucifix, as parishoners have asked him, “Where’s Jesus?” He says, “In Heaven.” Incidentally, a statue at that church (only there it’s lifesize):

http://marianist.com/nlimages/rielly-fanger-v4-21.jpg

“Mary Seat of Wisdom”

 

[thunderballs75]

In all honesty, Brotherholf, I have not seen one word of chastisement or criticism of you in any of the responses to your question in this thread. BBasil was not directing anything at you personally, and none of my comments were directed at you, just answering your question.

I truly hope and pray that you will somehow be able to find some peace about the changes in the Church. You don’t have to like them, but I hope that you can someday come to terms with it, because we can’t ever go back to 40 years ago, it is not possible to turn the clock back, and we cannot undo the past. There is a lot of bitterness and resentment and sadness coming through in your posts, (and I’ve read many of your posts) and that can’t be easy to live with, and that is not spiritually healthy. I will pray for you that you find some peace. I mean that sincerely, and not as criticism. I can see how you have been suffering, and hope that the Lord can ease some of that.

I’ll pray that the Latin Mass will at least be available, and that we don’t have to come to terms with the only available Mass being a hippy Mass.

God bless.

 

[Joannm]

I grew up with it too. I can’t say I had any problems with it, but I was not at all unhappy with Mass in English, I liked it better. I am very orthodox in my Catholicism, but I am not a traditionalist in the sense it is used in this forum. I have no problem at all with people preferring it, but I have no desire whatsoever to return to the EF. I also do not have the experience of people my age or older wanting to go back to it. Outside of these forums, I don’t know anybody who wants to. But I can only speak for my experience.

Now if you are trying to get a sense of what the majority of older Catholics think, these forums are not reflective of the majority of older Catholics. They are only reflective of people who come to the forums, which is a very small percentage of Catholics in general. So you are not going to be able to extrapolate anything, one way or another, about what most older Catholics think about the EF.

I agree with you. I really think that if we didn’t switch to the venacular that I would not be a practicing Catholic now. I found going to mass a chore. Once they switched it was like a whole new world opened up to me. I got involved in preparing liturgies (and this was in HS) and I began to love going to Mass. So yes, some of us older folks did like the changes. I have also studied liturgy extensivly, and I still like the new form. I think the new translations are good (with a few exceptions) and with proper implementation and catechesis it might just work to help people understand what is happening at Mass and lead to greater reverence.

 

[Ohiomom]

I’ll pray that the Latin Mass will at least be available, and that we don’t have to come to terms with the only available Mass being a hippy Mass.

God bless.

Too right. It is still a big issue that all bishops have not made TLM available and some have actively made it unavailable through institutional means (ie making certain no seminarians with any interest in Latin become diocesan priests, not being generous with allowing the “indult” when that was promulgated etc.

 

[Ohiomom]

I have also studied liturgy extensivly, and I still like the new form. I think the new translations are good (with a few exceptions) and with proper implementation and catechesis it might just work to help people understand what is happening at Mass and lead to greater reverence.

Are you speaking about the translations for the upcoming new missal? If so, I agree. I am no Latinist, but I know a little bit. When I first got a NO missal with the current Latin-English translation and saw how some phrases were translated and read through the TLM it was clear that several things got lost in the translation.

 

[brotherhrolf]

For all you folks for whom the First Sunday of Advent, 1969 was liberating…more power to you. But, I saw my mother and my neighbors marginalized. The WWII generation. They, more than I, had their world dumped upside down. My mother and my neighbors used to attend the main 10 am Mass on Sundays. Until the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks got a hold of the Mass and turned “Come Holy Ghost” into “Bridge over Troubled Waters”.

Then they went to 8am Mass because there was no singing. And then when the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks started at the 8am Mass, they started going to the 4 pm Mass on Saturday.

CB Catholic - please forgive my rhetoric. My statements were merely rhetorical for the most part. I freely admit that I like the TLM. I have no problem with Latin. I also drive 25 miles one way to attend a reverent NO/OF cathedral and have done so for the last 26 years. I shouldn’t have to do that.

My local geographic parish (five miles away from me) is pretty much indistinguishable from the mega Baptist church and the mega non-denominational church when it comes to music and liturgical practices. I am not a Protestant. I don’t see why I should have to abandon my pre Vatican II upbringing.

I grew up with the TLM. Hindsight is always 20/20. What was done in the “spirit of Vatican II” is not what HMC intended.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I’ll pray that the Latin Mass will at least be available, and that we don’t have to come to terms with the only available Mass being a hippy Mass.

God bless.

There are many degrees between a EF High Mass and a hippy Mass. Not all parishes went through the jarring changes that Brotherhrolf describes, most parishes never had clown Masses or the other outlier abuses that are constantly described. The changes were less siesmatic in the vast majority of parishes.

I was born in 1962, so my personal memory of pre Vatican II times is limited at best. But family members do not describe the kinds of things we are discussing here. In some instances things actually got better, as the 25 minute low Mass gave way to the 40 minute dialogue Mass that was actually more reverant.

I had my First Holy Communion in a church that still had altar rails and received on the tongue. In college I held hands during the Our Father and received in the hand–but in both instances I and my family and friends knew we were receiving Jesus Our Lord and had come to Mass specifically to worship him. I receive on the tongue now, that is very common in our parish–the children are only taught to receive on the tongue in CCD, and my convert husband saw it as being more reverant.

When we attend the EF for some First Fridays though, my teen daughter reads her devotional book just as people used to do their own private devotions during Mass until the consecration. We have recently started attending a different church for First Friday that offers confession just before Mass and has adoration and benedict after–even though the Mass is the OF. The Mass is reverant and beautiful and my children love this priest’s homilies.

I do not want to see the EF done away with. In fact, I do believe it should be offered more regularly. If you look into the movtives of the “hippy” Mass folk, I doubt you’ll find that they are out to delibrately alienate anyone. They are simply offering the Mass in a way that they find meaningful.

Charity and tact on all our parts will do more to heal the riffs and divisions, and to highten the reverance of all MAsses offered, than holding grudges or shooting targets ever will.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

You guys are OLD!



I was born in 1986.

I didn’t grow up hearing beautiful Latin chant or seeing gorgeous vestments.

I grew up with the typical "millions extraordinary ministers, rainbow chasuble, female altar servers in yucky white albs, glass chalice, Here I am, Lord, is it I Lord? Mass.

Despite this, I loved going to Mass. As a kid, I would wear a sheet like a chasuble and pretend to have Mass on the kitchen table. I served three Masses a day.

Then, I started to become a teenager and questioned everything. The New Age-y answers and poor catechesis (though mine was even better than most) from the Novus Ordo just didn’t cut it anymore.

Luckily, one day, my grandmother and I checked out a Latin Mass at 7:30 AM on Sundays. It wasn’t celebrated perfectly, but it was so much better than the drivel that was passing for Mass in my parish. It was a SACRIFICE, and the text let you KNOW IT.

Fast forward a few years and I am now a 23 year old Master’s student who drives an hour each way on Sunday to attend the extraordinary form. I love the extraordinary form and I don’t plan on going to a Novus Ordo again ever, unless I absolutely must to fulfill the Sunday obligation or for a wedding or funeral.

 

[Layman]

The major concern for me is the overall trends in the Mass since 1969. If we can have this many mundane and contradictory elements inserted in the Mass in 40 years, what would happen within another 40?

I mean, one’s individual Mass or parish may be reverent, but even then one can ask; how do any of the changes help fulfil the purpose of the Mass; to propitiate God and thereby sanctify those present?

We may now understand what’s being said and have more audience participation but it’s a poor swap if you spend a lot of time trying to ignore what your neighbours are doing in the sanctuary or focusing on the priest because you can see his face all of the time (we are conditioned to pay attention to people facing us, regardless of what they’re doing. It’s instinct.)

I think Mass is where you come to leave your egotism and mundane cares at the door, not to have to blot out some of what’s become part of the ritual itself.

Still, I’m hopeful. I think what has Christ in it will prosper, long term. What doesn’t will wither away, alas.

 

[Joannm]

You guys are OLD!



I was born in 1986.

I didn’t grow up hearing beautiful Latin chant or seeing gorgeous vestments.

I grew up with the typical "millions extraordinary ministers, rainbow chasuble, female altar servers in yucky white albs, glass chalice, Here I am, Lord, is it I Lord? Mass.

Despite this, I loved going to Mass. As a kid, I would wear a sheet like a chasuble and pretend to have Mass on the kitchen table. I served three Masses a day.

Then, I started to become a teenager and questioned everything. The New Age-y answers and poor catechesis (though mine was even better than most) from the Novus Ordo just didn’t cut it anymore.

Luckily, one day, my grandmother and I checked out a Latin Mass at 7:30 AM on Sundays. It wasn’t celebrated perfectly, but it was so much better than the drivel that was passing for Mass in my parish. It was a SACRIFICE, and the text let you KNOW IT.

Fast forward a few years and I am now a 23 year old Master’s student who drives an hour each way on Sunday to attend the extraordinary form. I love the extraordinary form and I don’t plan on going to a Novus Ordo again ever, unless I absolutely must to fulfill the Sunday obligation or for a wedding or funeral.

What those of you who were not old enough or alive to remember the Latin Mass, it was not all great. The High Mass was at Noon, so most went to the early low mass since they could not fast until Noon. The low mass had very little music and basically the sermon was longer than the entire mass iteself. There was no participation, until the dialogue mass came along and very few people received communion. I never heard all the so called beautiful music that people here talk about at the latin mass of today. The only time we sang was at the school mass and then we sang in English and only hymns, not the ordinary parts of the mass.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

What those of you who were not old enough or alive to remember the Latin Mass, it was not all great. The High Mass was at Noon, so most went to the early low mass since they could not fast until Noon. The low mass had very little music and basically the sermon was longer than the entire mass iteself. There was no participation, until the dialogue mass came along and very few people received communion. I never heard all the so called beautiful music that people here talk about at the latin mass of today. The only time we sang was at the school mass and then we sang in English and only hymns, not the ordinary parts of the mass.

I don’t care about what it was like. I care about what it’s like now.

Sure, your experience may not have been the best, but I love the extraordinary form. It is great and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

But you’re making a common mistake. The Mass isn’t about YOU. It’s about GOD. We have this post Vatican II mentality that Mass must be enjoyable to suit US. Wrong! Mass is meant to glorify God, not man.

So when we turned the altar around and started worshipping each other, we got turned around spiritually, too.